Basically he says that the trades should come first and then release the monthlies. That way, according to Wolfman, there aren't any late issues. I kinda like the concept, but the cynic in me is thinking the trades would still be late. Considering that the companies have problems getting 4-6 issue mini-series out on time, I don't see how they will sit on a trade that has 4-6 month's of stories in it. They'll still have artificial deadlines that won't be met.
How, in any world, would this help the continued survival of monthly comics? Would anyone have bought Steven King's "The Green Mile" in its monthly installments after they had the opportunity to get the entire book? The idea is to write a graphic novel, publish it and then serialize it. That idea is so left field I can't even believe we're talking about it as a viable option.
I feel a little weird talking about a Wolfman column on John Byrne's forum, but . . . here are my thoughts on Marv's suggestion anyway! It's worthy of consideration, IMO.
The good:
1. I love trade paperbacks. Any good material is worthy of being collected in a bookshelf-ready format.
2. I am as nostalgic as anyone on this board, but I'm tiring of the pamphlet format, if only because storage for the buggers has become a problem. I'm trying to resist needing more long boxes since I have twenty or so filled already. Access to traditional comic books becomes difficult once they're read and stashed away, and it's impractical to have too many laying around. (Hey, they were designed to be disposable entertainment, not kept for years and years!) This means I am "waiting for the trade" more and more. (And soon they'll also be a storage problem, as I run out of shelf space!)
3. I hate buying the same material twice, though I am sure that's what the publishers (and probably the creators) want me and every other remaining fan to do. But I also hate to wait. If the trades came out first, I wouldn't have to wait to read a new story arc until all its installments were published and it was collected. (Though the gap between those events is shrinking.)
4. A trade-first approach would allow READERS to decide if a title is a success more so than now, when retailers (especially with new series) make that decision via knee-jerk issue-by-issue order slashing (before ANY issues have come out!). I'm convinced the reason for all of these series renumberings is to play to retailer ordering practices -- a doomed strategy. We have to get away from the old "Collector's Item 1st Issue!" mania if the medium is to survive.
The bad:
1. A "safe sampling" format wouldn't be available until later. This is the downside to number 3 above: how do you know if the story is worth $15-25 if you've never read any part of it before? Perhaps the trades could be promoted with a loss-leader preview issue (the 25-cent CONAN seems to have benefited that series), so people could see if the material was promising enough for a bigger investment. Otherwise, you're waiting "on the paperback."
2. Related to the last point, wouldn't Wolfman's approach to publishing make it even harder for new titles to attract an audience, since the title's novelty is tied to a more expensive initial investment? Will people still care when the arc hits "paperback" or pamphlet format, and the hype machine has moved on?
Comics as they are published today remind me of the television industry's first run-to-syndication system of squeezing every last penny of profit from their shows. Would a trade collection be as viable in the marketplace without established "first-run" popularity? (Metaphorical digression: will Marvel put Roger Stern's "shows" into syndication already? Don't they know they have a Star Trek Original Series-style phenom waiting to happen once more people are exposed to his classic stuff?)
Also, would a trade-first approach cause publishers to play it safe in terms of what characters and creators they published?
3. Can the companies afford to sit on their investment until trade-ready arcs are completed? I suppose they should have arcs ready to go (ideally) for solicitations as it is. But as we have seen with many "hot" books in recent years, most comics "professionals" do not have the work ethic JB does. (To be fair, perhaps they're too busy making movies starring Ben Affleck. It's tough having two jobs!)
4. Would a trade-first approach lead to even MORE padded-out storytelling than we already see in many titles? The plus side of the pamphlet format is that it can force the creators (if they're taking advantage of the serial aspect) to punch up their pacing a bit. Look at JB's incredible work on FF #257-262, for example, for what issue-to-issue excitement really means.
The result: inconclusive. (But I'm leaning to the "yea" vote.)
Anyway, I'm sure JB will have a trade's worth of DOOM PATROL ready any day now, and I for one would gladly make that investment up front!
Ian
...that as the former owner of virtually every comic ever printed by Marvel, and about half of the DC ones, and a TON of the others, no one "needs" twenty boxes of comics, long OR short.
I know, I know, its just so hard to part with yer treasures, after you've read them and someday you might need Thor #321. Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
But this is not a solution, at all. I work with all kinds of people, I know a bunch of creative types, including myself. We're mentally structured to go with urges. A Byrne-like schedule has to be drilled into us, for the most part. Creating the tpbs as the first step is just ridiculous, and could only come from someone who has lost touch with the entire business side of the industry.
From Matt R.: That idea is so left field I can't even believe we're talking about it as a viable option.
It does sound kooky in initial concept. I don't think it would work as an across the board solution, but nothing really does. Variety is what it's all about. What I think we have in the industry are a large group of creators and publishers where producing a timely comic isn't the first (or second or third or...) consideration. While I don't like accepting that as a given, it is the cards we've been dealt. So if that is the current system, how can we make that system function better?
Oddball solutions are sometimes what attract people just because they are different. How many times have we seen some "As seen on TV" gadget that sounds loopy, but sells a bundle?
I love the TPB format, but Marv's suggestion, if correctly reported, won't work as a simple matter of business economics. Even graphic novels (ie. conceived as book format from the start) mostly ride in on the back of a market which is founded on the monthly book. You would end up with a very small specialist market of material conceived as books (Maus, for instance).
Why not just put out a "trade sized" comic each month by a rotating comic team and call it a "superzine" and sell it on news-stands charging a magazine price for it but it being actually big enough to be worth the price for a change.
Basically he says that the trades should come first and then release the monthlies.
**************
Marvin also described me as a person working in comics who never creates characters, that the work-for-hire rule did not exist at Marvel in the 70s, and that a person is safe from electrocution as long as that person is grounded.
"Sage" applies to Wolfman only if he is being used as a condiment.
The only way I can see that type of thing working is if it a split between what someone above mentioned...direct market gets monthlies then later a trade and the book stores get a tpb size monthly or 2 crammed with new comics..the tpb zine idea.
Typically they are on crap paper with the WORST re-coloring jobs and don't reprint the covers of the issues they collect. The reproduction of the linework is very often EL' Crappo and is a terrible reproduction of the original source material.
Case in point! M****l resently reprinted the entire Frank Brunner Dr. Strange run...well relatively recently..... It was HORRIBLE!!! The linework dropped out, the coloring was horrendous and the overall package was lame! I bought the original issues which Brunner colored himself and all of the linework is there and the coloring was simply ASTOUNDING! Also I got the covers at the right size not stamp size reproductions and I got the letters pages and house adds. That is some of the GREAT things original comics have and in fact it wa Brunner himself that wrote a bogus letter into Marvel that allowed them to complete their GENESIS storyline. Within the originals you can find that letter in which Brunner pretended to be a Preacher/Minister and applauded Marvel for their daring. That letter got the attention of Stan Lee and he then approved Brunner's storyline. These are tidbits and insight that are stripped away in a trade and simply for the crappy coloring or re-coloring that the material goes through and the stuff you DON'T get in my mind trades fall way short. The ONLY time the are good is in the instance of when the company actually spends money to produce the trade right ala' Neal Adams Green Lantern, Deadman and Batman hardcovers and the Archive editions.... The generic trades that come out with their electrolight colors and missing ink lines with often edited out material and content are not good at all.
I'm not out to impress anyone with a bookcase full of trades or embarrassed that I have comic boxes.....
The original comics are always better then the trades.....
I could go on a 4 page rant on all the trades I have seen with dropped out linework and terrible coloring....and missing source material
This message has been edited by EricLund on Apr 28, 2004 10:57 AM
I generally agree with Mr Lund. The worst TPB I own is SPIDER-MAN: CLONE GENESIS, which has dialogue blacked out and footnotes from both MARVEL TALES and AMAZING SPIDER-MAN along with the bad coloring. It's embarrassingly bad. I hope someone lost their job over it.
I do appreciate that small coloring and text errors can be corrected in TPB collections that follow the first publication. (Kid Flash's costume in GENERATIONS 2, for example.)
Only one exception I can think of: the coloring in the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS TPB is better than it was on my original comics, which were invariably blotchy and off-model. I seem to remember that the industry was adopting a new process back in the '80s, and they hadn't worked out the kinks at that point.
"Only one exception I can think of: the coloring in the CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS TPB is better than it was on my original comics, which were invariably blotchy and off-model. I seem to remember that the industry was adopting a new process back in the '80s, and they hadn't worked out the kinks at that point."
Flexograph, I believe was being tested. But what did you mean about "off-model"? I totally agree that the trade is nicer in this case, but IMHO, due to the blotchiness and crappy colours. Some linework got fragged and wavy, but I'm not sure what you mean by "off-model".
>>I'm not out to impress anyone with a bookcase full of trades or embarrassed that I have comic boxes.....
The original comics are always better then the trades.....<<
Eric, since the first line quote above seems to reference my post, let me say your interpretation is WAY off the mark. For me the issue of trades on the shelf versus pamphlets in longboxes is one of access, first and foremost, not an attempt to impress anyone or to avoid embarrassment. To "civilians," a comic book is a comic book, no matter what form it takes, and I carry the banner of comic book reader as proudly as anyone here.
Secondly, I think you are too bold with your generalization about the quality of original comics "always" being better than the trades. Perhaps the vintage of the original comic has something to do with it -- I have noticed that DC's recent trades are almost always printed on cheaper paper than the original comic, as with the GENERATIONS trades, which I didn't buy as a result. The New Teen Titans Terror of Trigon tpb is also an offender in this lower-paper-quality-than-the-original category. (And don't get me started on how shoddy the HUSH hardcovers are.) I don't think all trades are created equal. (I have the Brunner Dr. Strange volume you cited, too, but can't speak to its flaws as I don't have the original issues.)
My favorite comic book material was published on newsprint back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, when comics were not the $2-3 glossies of today. I once exchanged posts with Walter Simonson about an issue of STAR WARS he drew back in 1981, which was marred by lousy, blotchy printing. He said that at that time the printer was using *plastic plates*, so it was a total "luck of the draw" situation whether your art would be ruined at the press or not. Needless to say, that issue (#49 I think) looks a lot better in Dark Horse's Star Wars: A Long Time Ago trade.
I'm not a big fan of glossy paper being used in trades (unless, as with GENERATIONS 1 and 2, the comics are glossy to begin with). But there is no denying that JB's art for Fantastic Four #232, for example, is much more clearly represented in the FF Visionairies volume than in the original 1981 issue. Do a comparison yourself and see. "Back to Basics" was another '81 plastic plate nightmare of poor reproduction.
When Marvel was putting out trades with high-quality, non-glossy paper in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I was amazed at how much better the art looked than the original comics. Look at Fantastic Four: The Trial of Galactus (FF #242-244, 257-262) or Captain America: War and Remembrance (Cap #247-255) for some really gorgeous reprints. Comparing the pages in those volumes with the original comics is like comparing DVD to VHS tape! Sometimes, the trade is better than the original comics. Way, way better. The original 1987 Daredevil: Born Again trade is another example, and it even includes the original cover art before each chapter , which should always be the case, IMO! (I can't believe how many times Marvel has put out a trade collection of The Dark Phoenix Saga without JB and Terry Austin's beautiful original issue cover art being included.)
But for me, a trade (done right, with at least the same production quality as the original comics pages or better), is about plucking a favored story easily off the shelf, rather than rooting around in longboxes for the same read. No need to fish comics out of taped plastic bags, issue-by-issue. To me, that convenience is worth missing out on the (admittedly enjoyable) letters pages and house ads, and having to put up with glossy paper more often than not.
Look at Marvel's MASTERWORKS and DC's ARCHIVES for excellent trade reproductions. They aren't trade paperbacks but they are the same as, with higher production value.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Vertigo TPBs. I read them for the story. I'm not reading them for a glossy, flashy reprint of the monthly comics. As the Vertigo TPBs cost less than purchasing the monthlies, I get what I pay for. Not all comics benefit from reprinting them on glossy paper with retouches and a stronger paper stock. I've enjoyed Y: THE LAST MAN, FABLES, and 100 BULLETS just as much in their TPB form as I'm sure I would have enjoyed them in a glossy, frilly compilation...and for much less money.
I have War and Rememberance and the original Captain America issues and that trade dropped out line work like crazy! In fact the Splash to issue 254 Caps left pupil is missing so he looks like he has a giant white eye.
The original Brunner issues of Doctor Strange are sooooooooo good they are unreal! Brunner colors them and the linework is all there is sharp detail whereas the trade looks like the linework was done by crayon. You HAVE to see the original books they are AWESOME!!!
Sorry if you took my jab personally...I really hadn't read your post and was making probably a too gross generalization on "fans" who have made statements about trades appearing more mature and worldly looking for their bookshelves. Too each his own I just find the original comics so much more a pealing and esthetically pleasing then the trades. Often companies do not have quality plates to re-print from or actually Xerox a file copy of the issue and strip out the color. The 60's Marvels with their lush cover colors and deep hues are just great in my eyes... Toilet paper to be sure but there is something about that look that appeals to me over glossy and bright white re-printed material in trades.
Trades done well are great but more often then not they are something Marvel and DC shit out over a weekend and do a hatchet job on the production. Trades could be so good if the companies actually put some effort into them to make them special. ALL the artwork, covers at FULL SIZE should be re-printed...
Flexograph, I believe was being tested. But what did you mean about "off-model"? I totally agree that the trade is nicer in this case, but IMHO, due to the blotchiness and crappy colours. Some linework got fragged and wavy, but I'm not sure what you mean by "off-model".
>>I have War and Rememberance and the original Captain America issues and that trade dropped out line work like crazy! In fact the Splash to issue 254 Caps left pupil is missing so he looks like he has a giant white eye.<<
I admit that page is funky for some reason, but it is not representative of the trade as a whole.
>>The original Brunner issues of Doctor Strange are sooooooooo good they are unreal! Brunner colors them and the linework is all there is sharp detail whereas the trade looks like the linework was done by crayon. You HAVE to see the original books they are AWESOME!!!<<
I'd like to. Someday!
>>Sorry if you took my jab personally...I really hadn't read your post and was making probably a too gross generalization on "fans" who have made statements about trades appearing more mature and worldly looking for their bookshelves.<<
Fair enough.
>>Too each his own I just find the original comics so much more a pealing and esthetically pleasing then the trades. Often companies do not have quality plates to re-print from or actually Xerox a file copy of the issue and strip out the color. The 60's Marvels with their lush cover colors and deep hues are just great in my eyes... Toilet paper to be sure but there is something about that look that appeals to me over glossy and bright white re-printed material in trades.<<
You are right. As I said, source vintage is important with regard to trades. In most of the Dark Phoenix trades, for example, representation of Byrne and Austin's linework is improved over that shown in the original comic, whereas the Masterworks cheat Kirby fans of linework all the time. A shame.
>>Trades done well are great but more often then not they are something Marvel and DC shit out over a weekend and do a hatchet job on the production. Trades could be so good if the companies actually put some effort into them to make them special. ALL the artwork, covers at FULL SIZE should be re-printed...<<
I couldn't have said it better. The comic companies owe the creators and their fans a complete, high quality reproduction of the original material. I'd like to see more full-size cover pages in trades!
reprint the covers without the logos and copy so you can see the entire piece of art the artist did..... They did that for Neal Adams X-men run it was GREAT!
Imagine JB's Hidden years run with covers printed like that see we could see exactly what he drew....
First off... WoW! Marv actually made those comments in court directly about you JB? When you mentioned it the other day, I wasn't sure if it was you, specifically, he mentioned or people in the profession. That is sad.
As for the idea of trades first, I still think it has some merit, the source of the idea not withstanding. As I mentioned up above, it is not the end all solution to the industry. Just as comic shops aren't (well, some people do say the shops will end the industry.)
I don't know how many of you read all of Marv's article, but his idea is a hardcover/softcover book suggestion. As in some people are only willing to read hard cover books. They like a good, solid book in their hand that doesn't flip and flop and... you get the point. Other people like the idea of the discount paperback.
What won't work is doing that for every book. What could work is the Hush or JLA/Avengers type of stories where you know you have an audience waiting. They may not know how many, but they were pretty sure it was large.
Promoting the hardcover books and single issue distributions in different venues has merit.
Mostly, I think the industry has a lot of issues. Many are internal, but some are external such as public perception. Dealing with the former will be difficult. Dealing with the latter will take unconventional thinking. Though I don't know how much we'll be able to do of the latter if we don't fix the former.
First off... WoW! Marv actually made those comments in court directly about you JB? When you mentioned it the other day, I wasn't sure if it was you, specifically, he mentioned or people in the profession. That is sad.
***********
I'd been sitting in the courtroom for maybe ten minutes, having arrived slightly late the first day (my train was delayed). Wolfman was already on the stand.
After a moment, his lawyer, who was questioning him, said something like "Mr. Wolfman, is there anyone who works in comics who doesn't create characters?"
Marvin, trying very hard to sound unrehearsed, said "Funny you should ask that. One of them is sitting in this courtroom right now. John Byrne."
There was an audible gasp from every other professional in the room.
I knew from that moment exactly what form Wolfman's testimony was going to take -- and I was right.
The original Brunner issues of Doctor Strange are sooooooooo good they are unreal! Brunner colors them and the linework is all there is sharp detail whereas the trade looks like the linework was done by crayon. You HAVE to see the original books they are AWESOME!!!
********************
Frank Brunner is the poster child for Making the Wrong Choices. He was a really, really, really good artist, but he misjudged the speed with which his wave was rising (largely because he, like so many, did not really understand that HOWARD THE DUCK was not a huge success). He quit Marvel (ostensibly over the work-for-hire "agreement"), even getting featured on the cover of "The Comics Journal" for doing so.
Unfortunately, he was not yet at crest, and he promptly vanished. The next time he was seen, he was doing WARP for First Comics.
Does anyone know where I can find a transcript of Wolfman's testimony? I was already irked at him for his repeated "I created..." self promotions over the past few years. JB's info just adds to that. Not that I don't trust JB's word on it, but if I'm going to be this irritated at someone's gall, I would like to see the proof with my own eyes.
I love TPBs, but I think that the current method of producing them does harm the industry. I think that TPBs should be reserved for Mature Readers titles and I'll go out on a limb and say that that's the only format those books should take. 22 pages is a real buzz kill for most Vertigo titles. 100 Bullets and Y read much better when you can get a whole arc in a sitting. At my age I enjoy spending my $14 for an hour or more of reading than my $3 for 10 mins and having to wait another 30 days for the next 10 mins. Eliminate the whole need for a "jumping on point". It'd be just like reading any other book series.
All ages fiction like Super Heroes and Animated adaptations should remain in the current monthly format because that suits a kid’s attention span and budget. If they are printed in a collected edition, the collection should not be printed and solicited every 6-7 months. It should be a year or more after the originals. Kill the whole "wait for the trade" mentality that's causing some very good books to lose their place in the market.
I promise all these things and more when I am President. Thanks for your support.
-Brian Hunt
Current Topic - The latest idea in writing for the trades?
