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Jesse Glover / Dan Inosanto / William Cheung

January 28 2016 at 10:37 PM
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Response to Re: Jesse Glover Trapping

 
Jesse Glover is not here anymore but to say he was better or tougher than any of the Chinatown guys is getting very silly! Dan Inosanto the main Instructor at Chinatown studied with Bruce Lee the longest, after Bruce's passing he also studied with several renowned Wing Chun masters, Dan also saw Jesse Glover and what he could do. Of course there would have been Wing Chun masters that would have been all over Jesse at Chi Sau, & someone like Dan Inosanto of course was better but so what? Jesse did Judo too and taught some to Bruce, any Olympic level Judo champion would have wiped the floor with him at strict Judo. It doesn't mean Jesse wasn't good at Chi Sau or Judo or that he wasn't a good fighter, it is more the difference of a Floyd Mayweather & Muhammad Ali at Boxing compared to any pro MMA fighter at strictly Boxing hands only and the difference is vast. Holly Holm is way better at Boxing than Ronda Rousey as proven with her Boxing fight record and from their fight, Ronda is way better at Judo than Holly they are aspects of overall fighting and strategy got Holly the win. I'm sure Jesse could dominate in Chi Sau against many people as you mentioned, his Judo was probably decent too he was a big strong guy but he wasn't better at Chi Sao than all the Chinatown guys especially Dan, & some Wing Chun people were better, nor was his Judo as good as Hayward Nishioka's, World Champions, Olympic athletes, etc. Jesse was tough and because someone was better at Chi Sau, Judo, etc doesn't mean they could have beaten him in a no rules fight. Dan Inosanto could overwhelm Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson, Ron Balicki, Rick Young, Erik Paulson, etc at free sparring, chi sau or anything - just ask them or they've said it in interviews already, they are all very tough guys! Dan doesn't present himself as a fighter, in the sense of the image Bruce Lee or Joe Lewis had, and Dan admits he doesn't have Bruce Lee's talent nor has he seen anyone that has and is a different person e.g. Bruce had a temper or could slap people in training for getting things wrong or not paying attention, Dan is just not like that. But don't mistake that for Dan somehow can't fight or isn't functional, again just ask Paul Vunak, etc for their experiences sparring with him, etc. Dan Inosanto is phenomenal in his own right. I've even heard people say Tim Tackett, Chris Kent, etc know JKD inside out but Dan doesn't or he doesn't teach it, which is ridiculous beyond words when Dan taught them almost everything they know.

Regarding Cheung doing Chi Sau with Jesse Glover ask Cheung, or ask witnesses not listing them all just look at photos of them together at seminars and you can ask people that were there too. Cheung has said he doubted few if anyone in the world could have beaten Bruce Lee in a fight especially at his weight, have not seen him say Bruce was not good at WC but he has said he did not know the full system. You make it sound like Dan Inosanto, William Cheung, etc that met and did seminars with Jesse never touched hands with him or were afraid to do so lol. Have never seen Jesse Glover say anything negative about William Cheung, WSL, Dan Inosanto, etc. Jesse never claimed he knew the full Wing Chun system or that he knew Jeet Kune Do or everything Dan Inosanto did because he wasn't there at the time, he was one of the most honest people Bruce Lee taught! Had Jesse claimed Bruce taught him how to master the one inch punch, or Dim Mak, etc - he could have sold out seminars teaching those things but he never ever did he was always honest about what he learned from Bruce Lee, and he never tried to pass off things he learned after Bruce Lee died as coming direct from Bruce Lee. So it would surprise me if he ever as you claim said negative things about William Cheung, when Jesse's books give praise to Cheung and WSL; if he ever had said such things direct to Cheung or said them in interviews then they later met up at seminar or event, I've no doubt someone like Cheung would have called him out on it! William Cheung was more an athlete and trained harder than some of Ip Man's students like Hawkins Cheung, etc.Look at Cheung's physique in his prime compared to many of them for an indication of how hard he trained.

Tommy Carruthers students & Instructors think he is really good, so do Emil Martirossian's, Carter Hargrave's etc. What they have in common is few serious renowned martial artists regard them as such. Tommy Carruthers and Emil Martirossian have both trained with Dan Inosanto, do you think Dan or his top people thought my goodness this guy is as good or better than Bruce Lee? Another thing common amongst these sort of people is they train generally only amongst themselves, none of their students or Instructors are very good and none are renowned in the martial arts community or even known. None of these people have ever claimed they were great martial artists or fighters and someone like Emil would know fine well after training at Dan's academy that many are way out of his league, if Tommy ever went there and trained he'd find out the same but would improve from there.

Unlike the afore mentioned (Tommy, Emil, Carer, etc) people like Dan Inosanto have renowned students & Instructors - Rick Faye, Paul Vunak, Erik Paulson, Yori Nakamura, Rick Young, Ron Balicki, Burton Richardson, etc. Some of them have competed in MMA, Shootfighting, BJJ etc. All of them have trained with renowned specialists in different arts, the best there is; not just training with their own guys like Emil, Tommy, Carter etc do. You can stay in a nice protective bubble only training with your own guys or seek out the best, the latter obviously means potential for growth is greater and that you have walked the walk experiencing going up against high level people in different arts to really know in practical terms beyond the hypothetical what works and what does not. You can stick with your own guys, and have someone try to take you down or grapple you and you defend it but it is nothing like going up against an elite level grappler, same for knife fighting or anything else. By sticking to a small group of people not a single one of whom is a renowned martial artist gives you a false sense of security, many martial artists have unfortunately developed that. Just look at some traditional Wing Chun people standing upright in traditional stance telling you how to defend against a grappler, yet like Tommy Carruthers they've never been on the mat with any elite world class grapplers to see what works and what doesn't beyond theory or trying it against your own guys none of whom are very good. Bai Jong in JKD and traditional Wing Chun stances are a gift to any good grappler and they don't care if you land a shot or two as they take you down. Saying you could use footwork to avoid a take down or grappling lol, again try it with a world class one and then see. Same for example defending against rear Muay Thai kick from a powerful kicker, if you cannot get out the way with footwork or are in an area where that is not possible or your reactions are slower and you get taken by surprise, you do what in original JKD when that kick is coming direct to your ribs? Traditional Wing Chun people use arms to block such a kick, or even double palm these work great training with their own guys but if they attempted them against a pro Thai Boxer that could kick really hard they would get a wake up call - bruised arms or hands at least, probably broken [see video below].

There are no videos of Tommy Carrthers free sparring nothing prearranged or a live dummy moving around waiting to get hit. He has never once been on the mat with a BJJ Black Belt or Champion and sparred or an elite Sambo, Greco Roman, etc person. If you ask him to put up a video showing him free sparring all out against anyone good (non edited and not brief few seconds), then look out for the many excuses why he won't do so. He only trains with his own guys, none of whom are renowned in the martial arts community. Dan Inosanto and his Instructors etc aren't in awe of people like Tommy Carruthers, Emil Martirossian, Carter Hargrave, etc. Tommy Carruthers or Carter Hargrave would never go now to Dan's academy in LA to learn or go there and claim they are JKD experts that know everything about the art, they can stay in their nice protective bubble training only with their own guys who think they are great and know everything there is to know about JKD. When people like Tommy, Emil. or Carter etc are telling you or insinuating all you need in martial arts you can get from them or that you can develop all aspects of your game by sticking to training just with their own guys, that doesn't mean you have to believe them or stick exclusively to that. Anyone telling you or advocating not to go train with elite grapplers, top knife people, MMA champions, etc or that it will somehow be detrimental to your development as a martial artist - run a mile! If you don't run, again you do not need to stick to what they advocate or believe somehow they have everything you need. You don't need to learn full arts if time or interest does not permit but at least go train with elite people in different arts - there can be no logical rational reason not to unless you are in a Classical Mess.

Many elite level grapplers would be more than happy to spar with Tommy or any of his guys, in a non challenging manner just to show him or his guys how easy someone can get taken down and how hard it is to get to your feet or strike from certain positions with a skilled grappler. They'd be more than happy to put on Goggles and see how many times you can hit their eyes. Same for traditional Wing Chun people, grapplers or MMA people etc would be more than happy to spar with them. Dan Inosanto's Instructors have all been there and done it against renowned people in diferent arts, some have competed in MMA and BJJ. Some Wing Chun people are aware a good grappler can get them down easily if they stick to traditional Wing Chun movements, stance and footwork so they have modified or added things. Others stay in their nice protective bubbles with their own guys and have defences against grappling, knives, Muay Thai, etc. Which approach do you think is better? Going out there and doing it with elite people in different arts, or sticking to your own group of guys?

Wing Chun Master Wong regarding dealing with wrestlers and reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vd-KAuN97o

Whilst you can see many others in Wing Chun training just with their own guys thinking they can easily stop a good grappler using traditional Wing Chun standing in those funny stances flat footed, body upright, often weight on back leg or split. You can even hear some Wing Chun people claim what I can do with Chi Sao standing I can easily do from my back if taken down, yes they can staying in that protective bubble with their own guys.

Traditional Wing Chun vs Muay Thai :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpRWtYC9HOI

That was a Wing Chun instructor, imagine if that was on the street and no rules life and death. The Wing Chun Instructor trained only with his own guys, had he trained with top Muay Thai people he would have had a better idea how to deal with it and not top stand flat footed which limits mobility. A good grappler would have easily taken him down too or MMA person, had he trained with elite people he would raise his game and have a better sense of what works and what doesn't, and not have such a false sense of security his art can deal with any situation or style.

Don't be like that Wing Chun vs Muay Thai video guy staying in a protective bubble training only with your own guys thinking your original JKD will save the day whatever happens. Go out there and train with elite people. Standing in Bai Jong side on is a gift to a grappler to take you down, or for a Thai Boxer to hit your lead leg, whatever your footwork is like you cannot avoid everything, a skilled grappler can close very fast and take you down with great force that alone on the street will cause injury or knock the wind out of you. They don't care about your side kicks or finger jabs they'll happily take them whilst closing the gap and getting their hands on you, besides some can't hit that hard off lead tools and their rear tools especially leg is further back standing in Bai Jong.



 
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  • Re: Jesse Glover / Dan Inosanto / William Cheung - Philip Callahan on Jan 29, 2016, 6:36 AM
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