The amount of foreign direct investment (FDI) in India for the first quarter of this financial year exceeded the total received in 2005/06, the country's Reserve Bank said.
In further evidence of the expansion of the world's fastest-growing economy, data released by India's central bank showed that $10bn (£5.4bn) of FDI was received in the first quarter of the fiscal year, which ran from April to June.
The news came just a few days after Tesco became the latest multinational company to announce it was investing in the Indian market.
The Q1 figure smashed the total FDI in 2005/06, which was just short of $9bn, the RBI said in its latest financial report. If the first-quarter trend continues, then India is likely to meet, and possibly break, its FDI target of $35bn for 2009.
Yesterday's announcement was further evidence that India is catching up with China as the developing nation most attractive to Western investors.
China averages $50bn FDI every year, but if India continues to develop at the current rate there could be parity within a decade.
Of the $10bn made in Q1, slightly more than $2.2bn was a result of the purchasing of shares by foreign companies in Indian businesses.
To highlight the speed with which India's economy is growing, a Mumbai newspaper noted that the total accrued through FDI was less than $10bn annually in 2005/06 before exploding to $22bn the following year and $32bn in 2007/08.
Tesco announced last week that it is to supply thousands of Indian shopkeepers and supermarkets with its products in a multi-million-pound deal with Indian conglomerate Tata.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
State clearly, that's only FDI, nothing else and don't expand it to other things.
Anyway, i don't know if numbers are correct.
One thing I am sure: if the numbers are correct, then those are foreign investors planned not exact invested. Do more research.
China is now becoming more and more self-reliande since we have huge amount of money in hands. We deny the foreign investments for level industries that comsume our resources and polute our environment.
This message has been edited by oneman28 on Aug 20, 2008 6:27 AM
FDI only contributes a little bit to a nations economy. China spent about 40% of her GDP on infrustruture in 2007 which is more than 30 years of FDI. If India wanted to really chanllenge on the global economy then she has to reinvest in her own economy before spending it on goods before her growth is done
This message has been edited by xChinawhitex on Aug 20, 2008 6:28 AM
Interesting responses from the chinese members here.This is excactly what i expected.I remember countless India-China threads where the chinese members were tomtoming about their FDI and how FDI is needed to boost infrastructure and jobs.Now suddenly for them FDI is something which pollutes the envirionment.
The entire chinese growth was based on FDI to begin with !
The Indian Govt does recognise the need for improving the infrastructure and is working towards that end.
"I guess India needs every scrap of good news just to not feel humiliated by China's huge advantage."
China does not have any 'huge' advantage.The only advantage china had is time.China started reforms 13 years ahead of India.And even then India is catching up with china and will acheive parity in a decade.
As many independent Non-Indian, Non-Chinese economists pointed out before, in the long term it is India which has advantages over china.
"so what other kind of response were you expecting???? like hand shakes, hugs???? '
Why is the rise of India considered as a threat to china ?
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
In a decade ot two, india and china will be 2 of the biggest trading nations to each other.
However, just like Formula One racing, the guy who started earlier and spent tons of resources
building better engines, database of info etc will be ahead most of the time, even thought the
new guy could eventually catch up.
Sure india will catch up to china, just like china will catch up to japan (in terms of all kinds
of industries), however realistically india will catch up by around 2050-2060.. and why not. Each
country aspires to be the best.
"..just like Formula One racing, the guy who started earlier and spent tons of resources
building better engines, database of info etc will be ahead most of the time, even thought the
new guy could eventually catch up.."
Its not necessary that a guys who starts first always wins the race.More often its the guy who started late but picks up later at the crucial last stage that wins the race.
For people who think India's slow moving democracy will not yield economic results !
Following are some key statistics about China's industrial sector. Figures are for the first half of 2008 unless otherwise stated.
CONSTRUCTION: Output 2.2665 trillion yuan (330.11 billion U.S. dollars), up 24.4 percent year-on-year; constructed floor space 3.695 billion square meters, up 20.1 percent; gross income 2.0743 trillion yuan, up 25.9 percent; profits 49 billion yuan, up 42.2 percent. (National Bureau of Statistics)
STEEL: Output 299.96 million tonnes, up 12.51 percent year-on-year. (China Iron & Steel Association)
CEMENT: Production 648.05 million tonnes, up 8.7 percent year-on-year. (National Development and Reform Commission)
ELECTRICITY: Output of large power plants (annual sales of at least 5 million yuan) 1.68 trillion kw/hr, up 12.9 percent year-on-year. Coal-fired and hydropower generation up 11.7 percent, and 18.5 percent, respectively. (National Development and Reform Commission)
COAL: Raw coal output 1.256 billion tonnes, up 14.8 percent year-on-year. (National Bureau of Statistics)
CRUDE OIL: Output 94.33 million tonnes, imports 90.53 million tonnes, up 1.7 percent and 11 percent year-on-year, respectively. (National Development and Reform Commission)
AUTOS: Imports 16.333 billion U.S. dollars, up 39.64 percent year-on-year, exports 24.776 billion U.S. dollars, up 39.45 percent
Domestically produced passenger car sales from January-July up 15.79 percent year-on-year. Full-year production expected to exceed 10 million units, vs. 8.8 million in 2007. (China Association of Automobile Manufacturers)
TELECOMMUNICATIONS: Revenue 39.9 billion yuan, up 9.2 percent year-on-year. Mobile phone users 600.8 million as of June, up 53.5million from the end of 2007; 45.6 percent of population using mobile phones, 27 out of 100 Chinese residents using fixed-line phones as of June. (Ministry of Industry and Information Technology)
MACHINERY: Output up 21.6 percent year-on-year by value. (National Development and Reform Commission)
TEXTILES & GARMENTS: From January to July, exports 100.36 billion U.S. dollars, up 7.67 percent. (National Development and Reform Commission)
Open your eyes, read these data before your thinking of "catch up"
When China started reform in 1980, China could produce more than 300 million tons of grains. Don't forget that China had around 800 million population then. India? the record is less than 250 million tons of grain production for a 1.1 billion country. Do you know that we chinese always say: Our economy was at the margin of total collapse before the reform?.
Today, Chinese industry is still growing at pace of around 16%. Do you know what does that mean? China's industry increase in one year equals to the total of India's industry. Another number will make the situation worse: India's industry growth drecreased to less than 4% recently according to some report. Sorry! No such catching up game at all.
China today is balancing foreign investment. Our outbound investments are growing since we have plenty of cash in hands. FDI is not such as importnat factor for China's development. Our investment in development is above US$ trillion each year. That equals to the total of India's GDP.
When China's economy is still gowing faster than India's, no such "closing gap" at all, let alone China'e economy is almost 3 times of India's.
I would like to clarify one thing, that China's centrally planned(to some degree) economy may even pan out to be the long term advantage.
Assuming all people in the society work equally hard. They can each make 2 units of G&S(goods and services) a year, then the per capita income for that country is 2 units. With population increase, total GDP may rise, but each person is still making only 2 units/year, and receiving 2 units/year as income.
But everyone is working as hard as they can, then howcome some country in the world enjoy higher per capita income than others? Because those people who are rich have machines(capital) to work with, which enable each of them to produce more than 2 units/year. If 1 person can produce 4 units/year with 1 capital, then he/she theoratically will be able to produce 8 units/year with 2 capital; And so on. As you can see, capital accumulation (going from 1 capital to 2 capital to 3 capital....(though not as easy as it sounds, capital depreciates or wears out)) is vital to a country's growth and material living standard.
A 'democratic'(according to conventional wisdom) country like India might see investments or capital accumulation all go to the most profitable areas, which results in the seeming better capital(or invetment, whatever you call it) efficiency. But, in due time, it will saturate all the immediately profitable investments. And here comes a time when profitable businesses must depend on pre-established businesses some of which are not profitable at all. E.g. A steel mill seems productive, but it needs proper road to transport raw material and products, it needs power plants and dams to supply water and electricity, it needs famrs to feed its workers. Without earlier investment in these less profitable areas, a profitable steel mill will not be profitable, and not many people will want to invest(i.e capital accumulation slows). This is where central planning come into play. A country like China in a similarly situation can simply power through these 'inefficient' investment, and quickly accumulate capital.
Having to wait for profitable investment opportunities will ultimately slow down India's growth way before it should be.
And this is why China will catch up to USA's per capita GDP way before India do.
By the way, Indian's so called political stablility promises them nothing over us. As long as Chinese people see progress, they won't revolt.
And you think we care about that little FDI investment? All we want are their technology and managerial skills.
This message has been edited by hbogyt on Aug 22, 2008 11:50 AM
@oneman- it was FDI that kickstarted your economy.
Why is the rise of India considered as a threat to china ?
Chinese as a people are hegemonistic. Plus given there population and super size it makes them stand out as the natural power in Asia dominating Japan, Korea etc but India is also similiar to China in many ways. A strong developed India means competition in China's plans of hegemony and hence India is a threat.
"Chinese as a people are hegemonistic. Plus given there population and super size it makes them stand out as the natural power in Asia dominating Japan, Korea etc but India is also similiar to China in many ways. A strong developed India means competition in China's plans of hegemony and hence India is a threat"
no, all world didn't look india as a threat,because they are sure india is not able to become a real threat,good for india.
^^ India doesnt have a track record of killing millions and millions of Indians for political reasons unlike China.
Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution. Thats what China is known for and a country that can kill millions of its own people for power can also kill millions of other people for power. Hence China is a threat to world peace.
However China's government has change since then while India has remain the same, India is more of a threat to world peace because India has rejected the clause that would end the 2005 nuclear deal if India starts conducting Nuclear test again. Wonder if Bush is going to accommodated India or they would tell India to wake up from their delusions.
india can catch up and probably will but the thats going to take along time there are too many poor people in india , china has poor people but not as much as india . what ive also noticed is that most buisness men and women from india were from high castes and in china they were genarally from poor familys that had made it big , i may or may not be right but thats what i think anyway .
If you're right, no one remembers. If you're wrong, no one forgets.
The way I see it there are some fundamentals that a country needs in order to grow (rapidly),
1. government/system
2. education (and unity of the ppl)
3. infrastructure
for big countries like china, india, russia, etc. you need a strong central gov.
china was able to move up constantly due to a strong and steady hand from the central gov/system.
next, education is another imporatnt key. both gov and the ppl need tobe in-sync and support each
other. how do you do that? you need a sufficiently large % of the population with adequate
education to work together with the gov on their grand vision projects.
once you prosper a bit, then you need to start building the infrastructure a.s.a.p. because you
cant build a pyramid if the foundation has not been laid out properly.
india is trying to build these 3 fundamentals, however, china is already miles ahead.
you have seen the pictures of electric poles in some indian cities where poor ppl just hook cables
to the poles, draining out electricity without paying.
similarly many poor ppl riding on top of trains.
these indicate that the system is "out of whack" and that the gov and ppl are not in sync.
Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution. Thats what China is known for and a country that can kill millions of its own people for power can also kill millions of other people for power. Hence China is a threat to world peace.
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You are political blind. You think the death were caused by political killing? What a brainwahsed Indian!
If you count the similar deathes. India is more dismal.
Even today, after 60 years of India's independence, more than 2 MILLION indian KIDS under age of 5 die each year. Do you know how many KIDS died in your 60 years? 120 MILLION at least. This number could be much bigger if you think India have made any progress in the 60 years.
Remember, that's KIDS under age of 5 ONLY.
Thousands of Indians died from real political and religional killing every year. You indians know more about this.
This message has been edited by oneman28 on Aug 24, 2008 4:14 PM
"what ive also noticed is that most buisness men and women from india were from high castes and in china they were genarally from poor familys that had made it big , i may or may not be right but thats what i think anyway .."
You are mistaken. In India, most of the business men are from all kinds of social backgrounds not just 'high casts'. Most importantly all the Indian Businessmen become succesfull by their own without any Govt support.In China, most of the businessmen who are succesfull are directly linked to the ruling communist party.
"india is trying to build these 3 fundamentals, however, china is already miles ahead."
How many miles ahead ? Even economists like paul krugman who are very critical of the Indian economic path said the only reason china is ahead of India at the moment is because it started economic reforms earlier than India, nothing more and nothing less.The difference between the time when china started the reforms and the time when India started the reforms is what the chinese members refer to as 'miles ahead'.As krugman noted it has nothing to do with china having a image of "strong" govt or India having a image of 'weak' govt.Even Lee kuan yew who was until recently very critical of Indian political economy openly acknowledged that his past views on India were 'wrongly analysed'.
If we take cost benefit calculations of India and China, China's 'strong' govt took unnecessary ridiculous decisions like great leap forward and cultural revolution which costed around 3 million lives before they realised that opening up the economy is better for chinese people in 1978. India's 'weak' democratic govt realised the same thing a bit late in 1991 but without sacrificing 3 million lives. Now which one do you think acted in a mature and profitable way ?
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
Im not underestimating india's capabilities, and it got great potential.
But the power of math simply says that the rate of india's growth will take 3-4 decades
to catch up with china, as china keeps growng exponentially.
I still believe the prob in india is majorly related to how the gov functions, lots of bickering
and less unity of the ppl.
I suppose the indians will be bragging that they will be closing the gap on China in the Olympic gold medals table next LOL
Talking about political decisions that lead to the death of millions, why does India has a child mortality rate of 2.1 million a year?? Yet it spends billions on arms and weapons?? Yes China also spends billions on weapons but it has a child mortality rate of 415000 FIVE TIMES LESS THAN INDIA!!
Before the Indians here moan with excuses like China is richer etc (aren't us Chinese meant to be evil commies who don't care about the welfare of it's people lol??) care to explain why Bangladesh (a country that is far poorer than India) has a far better child mortality rate than India??
Now, a new study conducted by Save the Children, which compares child mortality in a country to its national income per person, shows that India lags behind poorer neighbours like Bangladesh and Nepal when it comes to cutting child deaths. This, even despite its impressive rate of economic growth as compared to the other South Asian nations.
It's freaking disgusting for a country like India to have a worst child mortality rate than poor Bangladesh (a country that Indians here constantly mock).
What a disgrace for a country that claims to be the world's largest democracy, yet neglects and LET 2.1 MILLION OF IT'S CHILDREN DIE A YEAR!! for a country that has one of the fastest economies in the world and is getting richer by the day and isn't experiencing any political upheaval, yet it has one of the worst child mortality rates in the world and does little about it, that's the most disgraceful indictment of all.
"I still believe the prob in india is majorly related to how the gov functions, lots of bickering and less unity of the ppl."
Fair enough. But how is it different from china.China's govt is not better than India considering that the corruption in China is same as in India inspite of the typical 'macho' image the communist party potrays to outside world.
"Meanwhile, China which was ranked a joint 72 with India in 2007, slided a step down to occupy a place above its neighbour this year."
Anyone who has read about the working of chinese communist party will know the intense internal bickering that goes inside that party in almost all aspects and for all issues again not much different from the bickerings of Indian political parties.China also has its share of seccessionist and anti-govt sentiments like India.If the above problems as per the chinese members did not hinder china's growth, how would they hinder India's growth ?
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
If you think the difference between China and India was only caused by the reform. That's fine. I have pointed out, China had a much better foundation than India before the reform, from agriculture, industry to social development. Even today, some Indian economical index are still not better than those of China 30 years ago.
Ah... IT/outsourcing actually, because the 1st (rich) world is doing rather bad this year... most of the big companies are trying to save cost by trying to outsource... I dont want to give u specific names (1st lession in finance...never give free advice, kind of like magicians never tells how to do tricks regardless how easy it is)
Edit... I was saying the indian stocks are doing good in relation to chinese stocks (that does mean indians are doing that great) for 2 reasons:
1. Chinese market really suck this year (like i predicted earlier last year -i am always right).
2. India stockmarket really sucked monkey balls last year.. basically, you been losing out so much you cant lose more... hahah -buy cheap sell high (note: that doesnt mean that you should start to buy random indian stocks)...
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No Matter Who Wins, our troops are always in Good Hands!
This message has been edited by oki81 on Aug 24, 2008 9:44 PM This message has been edited by oki81 on Aug 24, 2008 9:43 PM
If china is not miles ahead of poor backwards India then ****t must not stink.
Let's see:
by the end of this year China will be the 3rd largest economy -if not already- while India 12th.
let me see 3rd largest vs 12th, is that not a big gap? Folks we are not talking about a close race here between 3rd against 4th or 5th or 6th but freakin 12th. There is no neck and neck sprint to the finish, there is a guy trying to catch the 1st and second sprinter for the finish while we here trying to compare the top 3 sprinters to the one dead last. isn't that a tad bit ludicrous??
Even with the global economic downturn china is still growing double digit 10.xx while backwards India is barely scratching 7% if not far below. For this year it is the worst performing out of the BRIC countries, yeah below freakin Russia, Brazil
Don't forget this country is experiencing double digit INFLATION on par with freakin Vietnam! slowing growth with hight inflation coupled with the fact this country imports 90% of its oil and paying that heavy price don't take econ 101 to see its prospects don't look good.
For the past 30 freakin years china has grown at double digit or near double digit growth while the brownies never even scratched one year of double digit growth. what the hell does that mean?? Isn't it an indicator of being miles ahead and every year the gap getting wider and wider?
i wonder how an Indian can take those FACTS and twist that around to inidcate they have a far greater protential than China?? Absurd.
This is like Darvis Patton -finished dead last in the 100m- saying he can kick Usain Bolt's ass in another race,
yeah right. HAHA
PS.
51 golds to a pathetic one, 100 medals to 3
only a brownie can say they will exceed and spar with China on equal footing at the nxt Olympics based on the pathetic numbers above, no country and race in the world would have such demented audacity to talk big wth such facts but only an Indian.
I almost died laughing when Bob Costas was commenting on India during the opening ceremonies,
"with a population close to China 1 bill plus they have 50ish atheletes to 650 and no medal prospects, should we even compare?
No comparisons needed please and this goes not just for the olympics.
Once again, Why can't any Indians here tell me why the incredible economic superpower that is India has a worst child mortality rate than a poorer Bangladesh??
btw we're NOT talking about something that happened fifty years ago like the Great Leap forward or cultural revolution, this is happening RIGHT NOW!!
EVERY YEAR MILLIONS OF YOUR INDIAN CHILDREN ARE DEAD because your Indian govt and your people do not care enough to do something about it!! which is an absolute disgrace!!
By doing little to prevent millions of your children dying every year thats tantamount to killing them!!
Not only the kids death, today, almost half of Indian kids have malnutrition problem. No matter what you say about China's politics, China did not have that problem even during culture revolution since we could produce 300 million tons of food for 800 million population back then.
India is progressing, but catching up China? I would say No since China still growing faster at higher base. That's what I want to say.
This message has been edited by oneman28 on Aug 25, 2008 11:39 PM
They like to use few index to generate bigger image. That could be wrong.
China is now putting more and more restriction on foreign investments, where India is just starting it at lower base, the growth rate could be higher for India. But China entered the next stage: Self-reliance financially.
Same as cell phone market. Many Indian media braging about India's growth. So what, India achieves this when cell phones are so cheap today, while Chinese are now buying computers and are going to internet, and buying cars.
Hmmm...why hasn't any Indian responded to my questions??
The Indians here were very keen to persuade us that their country is a super duper economic powerhouse!! So why does India has one of the worst child mortality rates in the world?? This question was first raised by Oneman28 which I have since followed up.
The Indians here were very quick to lecture us about poor political decisions that lead to the death of millions, but unlike the events of Great Leap Forward and CR this massive number of child deaths isn't something that happened in the past which can't be changed, this is happening RIGHT NOW!! the appalling decisions made by your Indian establishment has continuingly led to the premature deaths of millions of Indian children every year!!
Perhaps you Indians should practice what you preach first before lecturing others!
I'm still waiting for an Indian to respond....wow the silence is deafening lol
The other major thing that india has to do -- as has been suggested by others too -- is to
try to move away from the hindu religion. this religion is definitely hindering progress.
anyway, if you look and analyze it carefully - sorry for those who believe in hinduism - i think
these were just stories: shiva, ganesh, woman with 6 pair of hands, etc.etc.. then i think over
the decades and centuries.. many thousands years ago, those stories slowly became "religion" with
ppl writing some hinduism holy books.
but those were just stories, like fictional stories.. then cow and rats become holy.
" why the incredible economic superpower that is India has a worst child mortality rate than a poorer Bangladesh?? "
For the same reason why incredible economic superpower that is china has a worst child mortality rate than a poorer Nicaragua !
"The other major thing that india has to do -- as has been suggested by others too -- is to try to move away from the hindu religion. this religion is definitely hindering progress."
Generally Religion has nothing to do with economics or even progress.Both Europeans and Africans practise Christianity, but the economic progress is different in both continents.In fact Europe itself progressed when it diluted christianity and adopted rennaisence.In Eastern countries though, it is opposite.India was economically prosperous when the state in the anceint times patronised Hinduism.But when the state became 'secular', that void was filled with Islamists and Christian missioneries.China had no problems when it took Buddhism from India and adopted it. But it suffered a lot when it took communism from Russia and adopted it.Not only the communists destroyed China economically but they also destroyed china's Buddhist heritage and the vaccum which they created in religious sense has been filled rapidly by western christianity !
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
I took 2007 figures where Nicaragua is better than china in infant mortality rate.If you take 2008 figures, using the same logic about Indian and Bangladesh, why is China's infant mortality is more than columbia or even Alabania ?
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
I took 2007 figures where Nicaragua is better than china in infant mortality rate.If you take 2008 figures, using the same logic about Indian and Bangladesh, why is China's infant mortality is more than columbia or even Alabania ?
Dude the reason why I used Bangladesh as example is to show that India can do alot better to cut it's child mortality rate, now can China do better to reduce it's rate? Of course it can!! but the difference is India has the disgraceful dubious record of having one of the worst child mortality rates in the world, get the difference??
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7445570.stm excerpt "India has some of the highest rates of child malnutrition and mortality in under-fives in the world and Madhya Pradesh state has the highest levels in India."
Also its the Indians who always make the comparison that India is the world's greatest democracy and inside this utopian country the Indian people enjoy incredible freedom and better lives, while China is a evil communist country who does not care about the lives and welfare of it's citizens, it has also killed millions of it's citizens in the past and won't hesitate to crush them with tanks again. Isn't strange then that us commies have a child mortality rate thats five times less than India?? and the Chinese people in general have better health and education too??
Let me repeat, the events of the Great leap Forward and the Cultural revolution happened FIFTY YEARS AGO (which can't be changed), while this great tragedy of millions of Indian child deaths is happening NOW!!
So shouldn't you Indians practice what you preach??
"Of course it can!! but the difference is India has the disgraceful dubious record of having one of the worst child mortality rates in the world, get the difference?? "
Not really ! I also want to find out the 'economic' reason why India's infant mortality rate is lesser than some of the poorest countries.If i can find out why china's infant mortality rate is lesser than some other poorest countries, i will at least get clue to my answer.That is the reason i asked that question.
"So shouldn't you Indians practice what you preach?? "
Definetely we should.And that is what i was doing.The reason why i had to bring cultural revolution in the discussion is i have heard from the chinese members in this forum that the reason why china is ahead of India is because it is strong and India being a democracy is cannot take strong decisions.I had to remind them that on a overall cost value basis(both economics and politics combined) India did not fare badly (inspite of more child mortality rates and all) since china had to pass through the cultural revolution(and the horrendous human cost associated with it) before adopting economic reforms while India's democracy made sure that it skip those stages and directly adopt the economic reforms !
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
I dont have my calculator handy, but pls someone who has one extrapolates these,
on avg china's gdp, industrial production, etc is greater than 2.0 compared to india's figures.
lets say india is 100 points = X
then china's is 200 points = Y
say on avg china will grow at least 10.0/annum for the next 10 years
and then 9.0/annum for 10 years after that, and then 8.0/annum for 10 more years -- total 30 years.
(anyway, im taking lower# which in reality will be higher because china's economy is like the usa
in the early 1900-1910.. so the internal economy will take over soon.
in other words: Y x 1.1 x 1.1 ............... x 1.1 (10 years) = Y1
Y1 x 1.09 x 1.09........... x 1.09 (10 years)
etc..
then extrapolate backward to "X=0.5Y",
you could figure out the % growth needed by india to catch up with china and at approx
which decades/year it would happen.
Not really ! I also want to find out the 'economic' reason why India's infant mortality rate is lesser than some of the poorest countries.If i can find out why china's infant mortality rate is lesser than some other poorest countries, i will at least get clue to my answer.That is the reason i asked that question.
Not really?? dude you can choose not to believe that India has a massive problem with premature child deaths but that won't make it go away!! However I'm not going to be a hypocrite and claim China's own child mortality rate does not need improving, because it does!! both our countries needs to improve, however its clear that China seem to have done a better job than India. The Indian political leadership needs to urgently put premature child deaths higher up in it's priority list, letting millions of children die every year through inaction and negligence is both disgraceful and unacceptable.
Definetely we should.And that is what i was doing.The reason why i had to bring cultural revolution in the discussion is i have heard from the chinese members in this forum that the reason why china is ahead of India is because it is strong and India being a democracy is cannot take strong decisions.
I don't think its about "strong" decisions, instead its about how quickly and effectively you can implement these decisions!! unfortunately your Indian bureaucratic system is cripplingly slow and your much touted democracy can sometimes be a hinderance as well.
I had to remind them that on a overall cost value basis(both economics and politics combined) India did not fare badly (inspite of more child mortality rates and all) since china had to pass through the cultural revolution(and the horrendous human cost associated with it) before adopting economic reforms while India's democracy made sure that it skip those stages and directly adopt the economic reforms !
If China had a horrendous time with GLF and CR while India did not experience such turmoil, doesn't that mean China was far weaker approaching economic reforms compared to India?? Surely a stronger and largely trouble-free India before the initialisation of reforms would have negated the advantage a weaker China had with starting it's reforms a decade earlier than India right?? So why is China presently so far ahead of India??
As regards to your initial question of whether India can catch up with China, well I think it is possible (I will never say never) the Indians are intelligent and hard working, but you must also realise that predictions and speculations do not always equal to certainty.
Some other things to bear in mind is even if these predictions come true and India eventually catches up and surpasses both the Chinese and the USA economies (and I've heared predictions of this happening around 80 years time) that does not mean the ordinary Indians will be as wealthy or have a lifestyle similar to the Americans, because by that time the unfettered Indian population will probably be well over 2 billion, maybe even approaching 3 billion (don't forget population restriction is undemocratic) therefore India will likely still have a huge sizable percentage of poor people.
This message has been edited by tron. on Sep 2, 2008 3:49 AM
In all fairness Indians really need to learn some humility and stop being so arrogant all the times, its good in a way but counterproductive on the other hand.
its not good to boast about things you don't have YET
We cannot compare India and China, there is a stark difference.
On one hand you have a country whose growth cannot be stopped despite major obstacles and on the other hand you have a Democracy where thing are moving but at a snails pace comparatively due to bureaucratic obstacles every step of the way.
India IMO needs a major overhaul in terms of leadership and attitudes if it ever wants to compete globally with major powers, and that is my humble opinion
"Not really?? dude you can choose not to believe that India has a massive problem with premature child deaths but that won't make it go away....."
I dont think any one said that India does not have problem with infant moratality rate.Although it is decreasing, India could have done much better.But it is little bit strange that the chinese members are comparing the political decisions like cultural revolution and great leap forward by their govt which led to death of millions to economic indecisions of another govt.Although both led to loss of lives, at the same time both are not of equal frequencies.
"I don't think its about "strong" decisions, instead its about how quickly and effectively you can implement these decisions!! unfortunately your Indian bureaucratic system is cripplingly slow and your much touted democracy can sometimes be a hinderance as well."
What you are saying is flip side of democracy which is partly true.The other side is that it also avoids actions like cultural revolution !
"If China had a horrendous time with GLF and CR while India did not experience such turmoil, doesn't that mean China was far weaker approaching economic reforms compared to India?? Surely a stronger and largely trouble-free India before the initialisation of reforms would have negated the advantage a weaker China had with starting it's reforms a decade earlier than India right?? So why is China presently so far ahead of India?? "
While India did not go through events like cultural revolution and great leap forward, it has other things to go through like political bikerings and fabian socialism of its elites which nearly pushed the country backwards.By 1973, on GDP Percapita, (India was 853 against china's 839) India was slightly ahead of china but on social indicators, china was slightly ahead of India.Of course Indian democracy made sure that India did not have to loose millions to events like cultural revolution. But the real tragedy for India happened in 1970s.The same time when china was opening up the economy, India was closing its economy to the outside world.It is that lead which china took which we are seeing now.China opening up its economy in 1978, India in 1991.The difference between those years is the lead china is having.But the chinese 'lead' is not in every sectors.While it is leading in infrastructure and manufacturing, India is leading in private enterprise , Information technology and pharmacuticals and bio technology.
"Some other things to bear in mind is even if these predictions come true and India eventually catches up and surpasses both the Chinese and the USA economies (and I've heared predictions of this happening around 80 years time) that does not mean the ordinary Indians will be as wealthy or have a lifestyle similar to the Americans, because by that time the unfettered Indian population will probably be well over 2 billion, maybe even approaching 3 billion (don't forget population restriction is undemocratic) therefore India will likely still have a huge sizable percentage of poor people."
As per the predictions, Indian economy will be third largest by 2025, second largest by 2050 and the largest economy by 2080.Of course all these are predictions and they are not to be mistaken as facts.But we cannot disregard them either considering that India was always one of the top largest economies of the world through out much of its history.India again reaching the top table should not suprise anyone.But i agree that the size of your economy may not exactly equal to the per capita of the individual and even after becoming the largest economy, India will still have poor people.But it is improbable that India will have 3 billion population by 2080 considering its population is predicted to stabilise by 2045.By 2026, India's population is suppossed to be 1.4 million.I cant relate how its popualtion will reach 3 billion by 2080 if it stabilises by 2045 if you take by 2026 its population will be 1.4 million(as projected by survey).
"In all fairness Indians really need to learn some humility and stop being so arrogant all the times, its good in a way but counterproductive on the other hand. "
In all fairness B2, i dont think any Indian in this thread is arrogant about anything.Can you show me a single sentence in this thread in which i displayed arrogance or falsely 'boasted' anything about India.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
Better thn 70 % of our economy being terrorism, no?
Nuclear deal between India and US is one step, dont owrry, we will have many more steps. Its only in 1991 that our economy opened up. We have made enough progress since thn n we will continue to make progress.
You cant afford to ignore 1.1 billion people out of a humanity of 6 billion.
The problem with India is their development of a social base before a economic base. This means that workers rights were developed before economic development occured meaning that its harder to develop and grow the economy because its economy has to cater to workers rights before economic development. If you follow the line of history you will notice this
eg
US built on slave labor
USSR was built on the backs of free government labour (slave labour if you must)
China has built on the backs of mass labour and a smaller extent the collectives of Maos era
Europe was built on a semi-feudalistic system
Asian tigers were built with autocratic governments. Taiwan and Korea were under martial law for the majority of their history
India can never "close" the gap unless they change their labour laws to accommodate growth
But it is little bit strange that the chinese members are comparing the political decisions like cultural revolution and great leap forward by their govt which led to death of millions to economic indecisions of another govt.Although both led to loss of lives, at the same time both are not of equal frequencies.
Dude, the Cultural Revolution and The Great Leap Forward were the direct results of communism. India is a democracy.
Communists can fook up a country bad. Democracies allow its people to reach the greatest potential.
The problem with India is it is a democracy whose people have a far higher infant-mortality and a far shorter life expectancy -- i.e. look at North and South Korea and the US and the USSR. South Koreans and Americans die less at birth and live longer than North Koreans and Russians.
So the problem with India is not its political system which is as good as it could get. The problem is human potential. India's high infant mortality rate and low life expectancy is the best it could achieve vis a vis China.
China could get even better simply by becoming more and more free in the future. India is already free.
LOL Panda and his 3rd Reich theory about human potential, you really belong in the Nazi party my friend.
Quote:In all fairness B2, i dont think any Indian in this thread is arrogant about anything.Can you show me a single sentence in this thread in which i displayed arrogance or falsely 'boasted' anything about India.
Dude im not talking about you but the general attitude of Indians, be it Overseas or in India.
They love to boast about things that have not even happened, about something they are planning in the future and a general arrogant attitude ive seen in a lot of fellow Indians especially the affluent ones, pisses me off totally.
Nothing Personal Arya bro, im sure you know what im talking about
>>As per the predictions, Indian economy will be third largest by 2025, second largest by 2050 and the largest economy by 2080.Of course all these are predictions and they are not to be mistaken as facts.But we cannot disregard them either considering that India was always one of the top largest economies of the world through out much of its history.India again reaching the top table should not suprise anyone.But i agree that the size of your economy may not exactly equal to the per capita of the individual and even after becoming the largest economy, India will still have poor people.But it is improbable that India will have 3 billion population by 2080 considering its population is predicted to stabilise by 2045.By 2026, India's population is suppossed to be 1.4 million.I cant relate how its popualtion will reach 3 billion by 2080 if it stabilises by 2045 if you take by 2026 its population will be 1.4 million(as projected by survey).
//
ok that sounds good..
but it's like china saying to the usa back in the 1950s that: we will catch you up in 2030, k!
I dont think any one said that India does not have problem with infant moratality rate.Although it is decreasing, India could have done much better.But it is little bit strange that the chinese members are comparing the political decisions like cultural revolution and great leap forward by their govt which led to death of millions to economic indecisions of another govt.Although both led to loss of lives, at the same time both are not of equal frequencies.
Economic indecisions?? LOL is that what you call letting millions of you Indian children die needlessly every year?? dude, your Indian leadership knowingly lets millions of your children die every year whilst refusing to increase money and resources to tackle the problem!! thats as good as killing those Indian kids!!
Let me repeat, the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward happened approx 50 years ago (its history and we can't change it) whilst millions of your Indian kids are dying right NOW!!
WE CAN'T CHANGE HISTORY BUT WE CAN CHANGE THE PRESENT GET IT??
What you are saying is flip side of democracy which is partly true.The other side is that it also avoids actions like cultural revolution !
Oh yeah the great Indian democracy also has the biggest slave system in existence in the world (Caste system) what a freaking oxymoron LOL
While India did not go through events like cultural revolution and great leap forward, it has other things to go through like political bikerings and fabian socialism of its elites which nearly pushed the country backwards.By 1973, on GDP Percapita, (India was 853 against china's 839) India was slightly ahead of china but on social indicators, china was slightly ahead of India.Of course Indian democracy made sure that India did not have to loose millions to events like cultural revolution. But the real tragedy for India happened in 1970s.The same time when china was opening up the economy, India was closing its economy to the outside world.It is that lead which china took which we are seeing now.China opening up its economy in 1978, India in 1991.The difference between those years is the lead china is having.But the chinese 'lead' is not in every sectors.While it is leading in infrastructure and manufacturing, India is leading in private enterprise , Information technology and pharmacuticals and bio technology.
Strange isn't it, even according to you when China was behind India in GDP in the past, China still had better social indicators, even though the perception is us Commies don't care about our people lol, Also care to explain why India didn't open up their economy before the Chinese?? since many Indians think they are smarter and better than us?? Also why was India "closing" it's economy in the 70s?? isn't that a very poor political decision?? I'm sure in India's case if the economy suffered so did it's people, with millions more lives lost!!
About India's population nobody knows for sure whether it will grow dramatically or not, read this:
Also can you provide me with some evidence that India is leading in pharmacuticals and bio technology? (I'm not disputing what you've said isn't the truth, I just want to see some evidence).
Lastly remember predictions do not always equal to future reality!
so the hindu avoids my point its 70% agriculture , you cant be a world superpower with call centers trying to sell crap. china is all manufacturing my freind and india has huge ethnic and caste problems which with globalisation will explode in the comming decades the status quo is impossible to maintain if you reform the chance to prosper is there but even then a border war with china will result in what pakistan suffered at your hands in 1971 break up china rules i say that blatantly as someone who is not chinese its there to see
Dr. B. K. Subba Rao a former Indian Navy Captain, who holds a Ph.D. in Nuclear Technology from the I.I.T., has
charged the Department of Atomic Energy, Mumbai with passing off a thermonuclear device with the yield in
mere kilotonnes as a success while it was in fact a failure.
He says in a statement:
India alone, and not the rest of the world, will be the Books loser, if Indians are not able to know the true picture
about the nuclear explosions carried out at Pokhran on May 11 and May 13, 1998.
LOOOOL india is a cess pool of disease poverty and degridation...
the days of comparing china and india r long gone... china is in a league of its own...whilst the back water known as india is asking help from south africa to fight their aides epidemic...
"Economic indecisions?? LOL is that what you call letting millions of you Indian children die needlessly every year?? Let me repeat, the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward happened approx 50 years ago (its history and we can't change it) whilst millions of your Indian kids are dying right NOW!!"
Millions of Indians are dying because of the economic indecisions of the past, not now. Mal nutrition is not a problem which is going to be solved in a day or even a year.The very fact that the mal nutrition is decreasing indicates that the govt policies are working to an extent.Of course, the govt has to do more to decrease the mal nutrional levels.Today's mal nutrional levels are the rsult of economic indecisions of the past.Today's economic transformation will show their effects in the future years.
"WE CAN'T CHANGE HISTORY BUT WE CAN CHANGE THE PRESENT GET IT?? "
I think thats exactly what India is doing.If anything thinks that Indian's social indicators will show a dramatic transformation , then their understanding of the issue is wrong. Todays India's social indicators are the result of India's economic policies in 70s.Today's India's economic growth will have effect on his social indicators in future years to come.
"Oh yeah the great Indian democracy also has the biggest slave system in existence in the world (Caste system) what a freaking oxymoron "
Caste system is not a slave system.It is a good and complex system which got degenerated.If you are looking for a slave system, you have the hakou system for that. But this is not the place to discuss caste.If you are interested in knowing caste system, start another thread and i will clear your misconceptions.
"Strange isn't it, even according to you when China was behind India in GDP in the past, China still had better social indicators, even though the perception is us Commies don't care about our people lol "
It is nothing strange as you think it is.As the wiki nfant mortality wich i posted in my previous post suggests there are number of countries which are ahead in the gdp with respect to other countries but behind the same countries in social indicators.
"Also care to explain why India didn't open up their economy before the Chinese?? since many Indians think they are smarter and better than us?? Also why was India "closing" it's economy in the 70s?? isn't that a very poor political decision?? I'm sure in India's case if the economy suffered so did it's people, with millions more lives lost!!"
As i explained in my earier post, the fabian socialism of its elites prevented it from opening its economy.It was a mistake not to open up the economy in the 50s and 60s when the koreans did or at least in the 70s when the chinese did.It is a poor political decision but its not a 'mao type' political decision.
"About India's population nobody knows for sure whether it will grow dramatically or not"
Yes no body is sure of the future projections but even the report which you quoted says that India will reach 2 billion only if the fertility decline is constant and does not decline in populous states. But the fertility rate is declining and will stabilse eventually as per the survey.
"Also can you provide me with some evidence that India is leading in pharmacuticals and bio technology? (I'm not disputing what you've said isn't the truth, I just want to see some evidence)."
"Whereas China's economy is twice the size of India's and has enjoyed a long-term GDP growth of 9 -10 percent vs. India's 6 - 7 percent, Indian pharmaceutical companies are 3 to 5 years ahead of their Chinese counterparts."
"so the hindu avoids my point its 70% agriculture , you cant be a world superpower with call centers trying to sell crap. "
I did not avoid you.I avoided your flaming.If your understanding of Indian IT is call centres, then you are 20 years behind in your knowledge of India.Agriculture contributes 17% of India's GDP, not 70%.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
go clean his Arabic toilet and polish his shoes like the old day of mughals.. these hindus will always be muslims' slaves....
Maybe you should remove your lips from the Arabs testicles my Puki friend, its the Pukis who glorify their Arabi masters because they were forcibly converted to their religion and suck their azzholes as a result of that.
Nothing is more sickening to watch than a puki hindu convert worshipping his Arabi master
you hindu creatures are tired of worshiping inbred gods and the inbred gods got tired of daily static blowjobs, massive herds of hindus are thrown in arabic toilet to worship living penis... you filthy coksuckers hindus are turned into blind curtain face as a result of muslim penis ejaculation and you hindu slaves as slaves for internety..
Antindian
You are banned for those stupid comments and the lewd insults until you email one of the Administrators and have a talk with them, they will determine when you come back.
Millions of Indians are dying because of the economic indecisions of the past, not now. Mal nutrition is not a problem which is going to be solved in a day or even a year.The very fact that the mal nutrition is decreasing indicates that the govt policies are working to an extent.Of course, the govt has to do more to decrease the mal nutrional levels.Today's mal nutrional levels are the rsult of economic indecisions of the past.Today's economic transformation will show their effects in the future years.
I think thats exactly what India is doing.If anything thinks that Indian's social indicators will show a dramatic transformation , then their understanding of the issue is wrong. Todays India's social indicators are the result of India's economic policies in 70s.Today's India's economic growth will have effect on his social indicators in future years to come.
Dude there's only so much you can blame the past for, I can curse Mao for what happened in the past till the cows come home, but will it really change anything?? Yes we should learn from past mistakes, but whats important is we should focus on what we are doing NOW!! to tackle today's problems!! and we should do it as swiftly as possible, and NOT say we shall do a little every day and hopefully after a few decades time the problem will be solved, because we are dealing with PEOPLE'S LIVES HERE!!
I mean are you comfortable with the thought that Indian children suffer more malnutrition than Ethopia?? Read this:
Having said this I believe China also needs to improve!
Caste system is not a slave system.It is a good and complex system which got degenerated.If you are looking for a slave system, you have the hakou system for that. But this is not the place to discuss caste.If you are interested in knowing caste system, start another thread and i will clear your misconceptions.
Yeah India has NO caste system! Damn, I mean who am I kidding right?
Yeah India is a utopian world where people are all equal and live like kings!! the clouds are made of candy floss and it only rains chocolate drops! and all the streets are paved with gold!! and every night fairies come to every household and grant every Indian three wishes!!
now good night and sweet dreams....LOL
It is nothing strange as you think it is.As the wiki nfant mortality wich i posted in my previous post suggests there are number of countries which are ahead in the gdp with respect to other countries but behind the same countries in social indicators.
Dude the difference was China was Communist, and India was a democracy!!
As i explained in my earier post, the fabian socialism of its elites prevented it from opening its economy.It was a mistake not to open up the economy in the 50s and 60s when the koreans did or at least in the 70s when the chinese did.It is a poor political decision but its not a 'mao type' political decision.
Mao type decision or not, the ramifications of such a poor decision of "closing" the economy for a poor third world country like India in the 70s would have push many very poor people living on scraps over the edge, probably killing millions of them.
Yes no body is sure of the future projections but even the report which you quoted says that India will reach 2 billion only if the fertility decline is constant and does not decline in populous states. But the fertility rate is declining and will stabilse eventually as per the survey.
Only a foolish man will predict what will happen to India's population, especially since nothing is being done to keep it in check!
And dude you do realise that your article puts China ahead of India in bio technology right??
"Dude there's only so much you can blame the past for, I can curse Mao for what happened in the past till the cows come home, but will it really change anything?? Yes we should learn from past mistakes, but whats important is we should focus on what we are doing NOW!! to tackle today's problems!! and we should do it as swiftly as possible, and NOT say we shall do a little every day and hopefully after a few decades time the problem will be solved, because we are dealing with PEOPLE'S LIVES HERE!! I mean are you comfortable with the thought that Indian children suffer more malnutrition than Ethopia?? "
Ok and what do you want to say ? All i said was that today's economic transformation in India which is taking place today will take time to transform India's social indicators and we can only see the results few years from now ! Do you think thats not the case ? what is your point ?
"Yeah India has NO caste system! Damn, I mean who am I kidding right? "
Again you are putting words into my mouth ? When did i said India has no caste system ? I only said caste system is not a slave system as you think it is and its much more complex than that and since it is not a caste related thread, i said this is not the place to discuss it !
"Mao type decision or not, the ramifications of such a poor decision of "closing" the economy for a poor third world country like India in the 70s would have push many very poor people living on scraps over the edge, probably killing millions of them."
Yes it is a tragic mistake not to open up the economy before , but as i said its completely different from mao's political mistakes ! You are trying to equate both of them but thats not the case !
"And dude you do realise that your article puts China ahead of India in bio technology right?? "
Yes i do realise that when i posted that article but do you realise that the article does specifically mention certain areas of biotechnology that china is ahead.For example, India is ahead of china in actual hectares used in planting certain biotech seeds.
INDIA: Ahead of China in Biotech Cotton
India has left China far behind in biotech hectares. India is fast evolving as a leading biotech region in Asia, outshining China for the first time in terms of total hectare land planted with biotechnology seeds.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides
- RigVeda
Ok and what do you want to say ? All i said was that today's economic transformation in India which is taking place today will take time to transform India's social indicators and we can only see the results few years from now ! Do you think thats not the case ? what is your point ?
I think if Chinese kids were suffering worst malnutrition rate than kids in Ethopia then I would say that situation needs improving urgently, I wouldn't sit there and calmly say "it will improve over time".
Again you are putting words into my mouth ? When did i said India has no caste system ? I only said caste system is not a slave system as you think it is and its much more complex than that and since it is not a caste related thread, i said this is not the place to discuss it !
I think we had a conversation on the caste system before and I know you like to play down how bad it is, We all know its a cruel system which belongs to the medieval era, I mean is there another country in the world that has the same system?? So no matter how Indians try to laud their democracy, their the Caste System simply makes a mockery of it!! So I understand your reluctance to talk about it.
India was democracy only in political sense, it was throughly socialist in economic sense until the 1990s.
Even democracy at the political level would still meant the Indian leadership was answerable to it's people right?? so therefore shouldn't the ordinary Indians at the social level be much better off than people in a communist country?? especially if India had a better GDP than China in the 70s as you claimed.
Yes it is a tragic mistake not to open up the economy before , but as i said its completely different from mao's political mistakes ! You are trying to equate both of them but thats not the case !
Yes there are differences, and probably more Chinese died than Indians, but ultimately they are both political mistakes, and Mao's political mistakes have been heavily publicised in the West unlike Indian political mistakes.
Yes i do realise that when i posted that article but do you realise that the article does specifically mention certain areas of biotechnology that china is ahead.For example, India is ahead of china in actual hectares used in planting certain biotech seeds.
Dude theres a huge difference between leading in buying and planting seeds, and leading in gene treatment and vaccine research and production!! Ones cutting edge science! while the other isn't. LOL
\\I think if Chinese kids were suffering worst malnutrition rate than kids in Ethopia then I would say that situation needs improving urgently, I wouldn't sit there and calmly say "it will improve over time".\\
I think thats what i said. I just added that the results of today's actions in improving social indicators will be seen over time and not immediately.
\\I think we had a conversation on the caste system before and I know you like to play down how bad it is, We all know its a cruel system which belongs to the medieval era, I mean is there another country in the world that has the same system?? So no matter how Indians try to laud their democracy, their the Caste System simply makes a mockery of it!! So I understand your reluctance to talk about it.\\
I am not playing down anything.I only said, this thread being an economic thread is not a right place to discuss issues like caste.People misunderstand caste system.It was started with noble intentions but got degenerated during the course of time just like religion was started with good intentions but got degenerated later.Also system like 'caste' is not unique to India.If India has caste system, china has Hakou system.I dont think Indian democracy is a mockery because of isolated caste system just like western democracy is not a mockery because of isolated racism.
\\Even democracy at the political level would still meant the Indian leadership was answerable to it's people right?? so therefore shouldn't the ordinary Indians at the social level be much better off than people in a communist country?? especially if India had a better GDP than China in the 70s as you claimed.\\
The corollary of democracy is because of its flexibility, it can be easily abused.The Indian political leadership during much of the last half century twisted the democratic mandate in such a way that it suited their socialist ideals.Indians were better off the chinese before 70s not because they were 'democratic', but because their govt(which happened to be democratic) on a relative level performed better than their chinese counterparts in economic GDP.The chinese in the same period performed better in social indicators because their govt(which happened to be communist) performed better relatively speaking compared to Indians.Economically speaking in both the cases the system of govt(Democratic vs Communist) did not play a vital role. Where it did played a vital role was in political sphere as in loss of life during Mao's cultural revolution compared to the liberal Nehru era of the same period !
\\Yes there are differences, and probably more Chinese died than Indians, but ultimately they are both political mistakes, and Mao's political mistakes have been heavily publicised in the West unlike Indian political mistakes.\\
India's mistakes in economic sphere were equally critised both in west and in India.But Mao political mistakes were in higher pedastral compared to Nehru's economic mistakes.Nehru was definetely at fault for his fabian socialism and not doing enough to improve India's social indicators at an earlier stage but he is definetely not in the league of Mao in terms of killing his own people.
//Dude theres a huge difference between leading in buying and planting seeds, and leading in gene treatment and vaccine research and production!! Ones cutting edge science! while the other isn'//
Dude, I understand that ! I was just implying that India is ahead of China in better utilisation of Bio technology which is one of the indicators used in comparisions !
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides- RigVeda
I think thats what i said. I just added that the results of today's actions in improving social indicators will be seen over time and not immediately.
Dude all I'm saying is MORE TIME = MORE LIVES LOST!
I am not playing down anything.I only said, this thread being an economic thread is not a right place to discuss issues like caste.People misunderstand caste system.It was started with noble intentions but got degenerated during the course of time just like religion was started with good intentions but got degenerated later.Also system like 'caste' is not unique to India.If India has caste system, china has Hakou system.I dont think Indian democracy is a mockery because of isolated caste system just like western democracy is not a mockery because of isolated racism.
Dude, you and I both know that the Caste system and the Hukou system aren't comparable (you're starting to sound desperate!) One system is a quota system designed to limit the amount of rural migrant workers seeking work in the cities through a system of registration, whilst the other system is based purely on DISCRIMINATION AND CLASS!! Sure the Hukou system does in many cases create discrimination but thats as a CONSEQUENCE! Not the PRIMARY OBJECTIVE as in the Caste System. The Hukou system is more political in nature and is used to ensure stability, whilst the Caste System is a social menace which goes to the heart of Indian culture and fabric of life. Here's some of the main differences (I'm only going to list a few)
1. The Hukou system is implemented by the politicans and whether it has much support outside the political establishment is debatable, whilst the Caste System is a social phenomenon entrenched in Indian society which has the support of the vast areas of rural India.
2. The Hukou system only affects the rural Chinese workers who wants to migrate to the cities to find jobs and have differculty with the registration process (its their temporary status that leaves them vulnerable) if they stayed in their rural homeland to work instead of migrating they won't have such problems!! Whilst the Caste System is NOT ABOUT JOBS OR MIGRATION!! the dalits and lower Castes are discriminated a upon daily by the upper castes because of their birth and perceived inferiority and lower status in the caste hierarchy THIS IS PURE DISCRIMINATION!!
3. Chinese people from rural areas can travel anywhere in China for pleasure and holidays without fear, theres NO stigma or restriction on who they can interact with! eg. they can have close relations or marriage with whoever they want, they can drink water from whatever source they like, they can worship in the same places as everyone else, there are NO "off limits" places where they can't venture because of their birth!!. This is simply NOT the case with the Caste system in India, dalits and lower Castes are NOT FREE to go to certain places, and NOT FREE to have relationships with whoever they want, NOT FREE to even do something as paltry as to drink water from a well that belongs to the upper castes, NOT FREE to worship in the same place or temple as everyone else, and in most cases forced to do the most disgusting jobs! etc.
4. Also you can work your way out of the Hukou system by getting better educated which leads to a better job in the cities etc you are not "marked" for life compared with the Caste System, because its fundamental tenet is "everyone is not born equal" even though you can also work your way out of the Caste System through better education leading to better job prospects etc you are always identified by your Caste! (by your surname and place of birth).
5. The caste system has been in existence for thousands of years, the Hukou system was created in the 50s
6. For a dalit in rural India the Caste system comes into effect as soon as he is born!! while the Hukou system comes into effect for a rural Chinese, only if he decides to go to the city looking for work.
The reason why the Caste System makes a mockery of your democracy is because democracy is meant to stand for "freedom and equality for all" whilst the Caste System represent the absolute opposite!
The corollary of democracy is because of its flexibility, it can be easily abused.The Indian political leadership during much of the last half century twisted the democratic mandate in such a way that it suited their socialist ideals.Indians were better off the chinese before 70s not because they were 'democratic', but because their govt(which happened to be democratic) on a relative level performed better than their chinese counterparts in economic GDP.The chinese in the same period performed better in social indicators because their govt(which happened to be communist) performed better relatively speaking compared to Indians.Economically speaking in both the cases the system of govt(Democratic vs Communist) did not play a vital role. Where it did played a vital role was in political sphere as in loss of life during Mao's cultural revolution compared to the liberal Nehru era of the same period !
When I talk to Indians on the internet and point out that presently the average Chinese person enjoy better social indicators than the average Indian in eg. education, health, housing, transportation etc they moan and complain that the only reason for this is because China is richer because its performing better than India economically and hence has a higher GDP!! Now its interesting your saying that even if the situation is reversed like in the 70s when India was richer and had a better economy and a better GDP than China, the average Indian will still have worst social indicators than the average Chinese! How is that possible?? I mean doesn't a better economy equals to more national wealth? hence more resources available to improve people's lives?? especially given India is a democracy!! that was my question!
India's mistakes in economic sphere were equally critised both in west and in India.But Mao political mistakes were in higher pedastral compared to Nehru's economic mistakes.Nehru was definetely at fault for his fabian socialism and not doing enough to improve India's social indicators at an earlier stage but he is definetely not in the league of Mao in terms of killing his own people.
Yes Mao was incompetent especially when it came to running the economy (and I won't defend him on this) however the deaths due to the Great Leap Forward was down to sheer incompetence, NOT a deliberate attempt to kill masses of people as some in the west would have you believe (although he did try to get rid of politial opposition in the Cultural Revolution but the deaths there were less than a million). Your wrong when it comes to how much criticisms the west attribute to China versus India! because Communism was always paraded as the great threat! as shown by the paranoia which accompanied McCarthyism in the US in the 1950s, and also during the Cold War! China's treatment by the west is no different, with euphemisms like "Red China" and even "Red Menace" commonly used, therefore because of communism China's mistakes is definitely highlighted more and critised more compared with India's.
Dude, I understand that ! I was just implying that India is ahead of China in better utilisation of Bio technology which is one of the indicators used in comparisions !
Utilisation of Bio technology?? LOL dude buying and planting seeds does NOT represent a signifcant lead in that field of technology! because all you need is cash and some spare farmland to plant it in!! and many countries in the world have the capability to do that! However NOT many countries in the world has the expertise to do gene treatment and vaccine research and production, understand the difference?? LOL
\\Dude all I'm saying is MORE TIME = MORE LIVES LOST! \\
Ok.And your point is ? I said that the improvement taking place in India today will show their results tomorrow.If you think thats not correct, i would like to hear if you have a better approach which can show results today itself !
\\Dude, you and I both know that the Caste system and the Hukou system aren't comparable (you're starting to sound desperate!) One system is a quota system designed to limit the amount of rural migrant workers seeking work in the cities through a system of registration, whilst the other system is based purely on DISCRIMINATION AND CLASS!! \\
Dude, It looks like you understanding of both caste system and Hakou system is limited.Caste system (as understood by you as opposed to its real meaning) basically is about discrimination and class destined by birth .And thats absolutely what Hakou system is all about. Using your defination of caste system, even in Hakou system the social and economic oppertunities of an individual is destined by his birth.Hakou system basically divided the people into urban people and rural people. A pesant from say Yunnan or Gansu has little access to social welfare in say Shanghai or Beijing (even though he works in Shanghai for 20 years)and is restricted from receiving public services such as education and medical care in Shangai or Beijing because his Hakou is registered in his home village in yunnan - a classic case of discrimination based on birth . This is the chinese equivalent of 'caste system' as understood by you !
Yes, Hakou system is introduced in a positive way to regulate the social pressure of the cities.But so was caste system introduced in a positive way to regulate the occupations in a soceity ! My aim in comparing the Hakou system with Caste system is to show you the narrow conclusions you will reach if you go by limited understandings of those systems. 'Caste' like systems are neither bad in their real meanings nor are they unique to one country.
'Caste' is not even an Indian word at all. Its derived from the portugese word 'casta'- a word used in europe in 15th century to describe the European 'Casta' system . When the portugese saw the Indian 'Jati' system (Jati meaning occupation), they mistook it to their Casta system and translated jati as Caste. Jati system is similar to the workers union of today.It was started to preserve the rights of the individual occupations.It was never intended to be heridetery. A crafts man' son can become a teacher and become part of teacher 'jati'. It was only in modern period that the jati system became degenerated into a heridetary thing requiring a reform.And the reforms are taking place and they are showing results.
"The reason why the Caste System makes a mockery of your democracy is because democracy is meant to stand for "freedom and equality for all" whilst the Caste System represent the absolute opposite! "
Thats true, but then every system however good it is not perfect.And Indian democratic system even with the limitations of caste is much better than the chinese system with their Hakou's and Communist oligarchies !
\\Now its interesting your saying that even if the situation is reversed like in the 70s when India was richer and had a better economy and a better GDP than China, the average Indian will still have worst social indicators than the average Chinese! How is that possible?? I mean doesn't a better economy equals to more national wealth? hence more resources available to improve people's lives?? especially given India is a democracy!! that was my question \\
I dont know if am not presenting myself incorrectly or you are intentionally misrepresenting my lines.I never said that Indian people 'will' have bad social indicators inspite of their better economy . I only said that in the past, India did had bad social indicators compared to china even though India was ahead of china in economic terms.As per your question, whether economic results automatically translates to better social indicators, not necessarily.For example, The saudis have better economic indicators but bad social indicators compared to the cubans.There are lot of examples like that.I am still trying to find the exact socio-economic reason for that,but all i can say at this moment is better economic indicators necessarily does not translate into better social indicators always.
\\"Utilisation of Bio technology?? LOL dude buying and planting seeds does NOT represent a signifcant lead in that field of technology!"\\
Thats right.But when you say whether a country is ahead in a certain field, one of the criterions used is the amount of penetration that field is in that respective country.Penetration in terms of usage of the technology.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides- RigVeda
Ok.And your point is ? I said that the improvement taking place in India today will show their results tomorrow.If you think thats not correct, i would like to hear if you have a better approach which can show results today itself !
All I'm saying is it doesn't seem like the Indian political Leadership has given enough priority to the issue of Child mortality else it wouldn't be worst than Ethopia
Dude, It looks like you understanding of both caste system and Hakou system is limited.Caste system (as understood by you as opposed to its real meaning) basically is about discrimination and class destined by birth .And thats absolutely what Hakou system is all about. Using your defination of caste system, even in Hakou system the social and economic oppertunities of an individual is destined by his birth.Hakou system basically divided the people into urban people and rural people. A pesant from say Yunnan or Gansu has little access to social welfare in say Shanghai or Beijing (even though he works in Shanghai for 20 years)and is restricted from receiving public services such as education and medical care in Shangai or Beijing because his Hakou is registered in his home village in yunnan - a classic case of discrimination based on birth . This is the chinese equivalent of 'caste system' as understood by you !
Dude I think its you whose refusing to acknowledge the difference! you're letting your pride cloud your judgement! The crucial difference is the Hukou system does NOT APPLY to all the chinese people who live and work in the rural areas of China!! they face NO DISCRIMINATION!! They can live and work EQUALLY like everyone else!! because theres NO SEGREGATION BASED ON CLASS IN RURAL CHINA!! The Hukou system only applies to those rural Chinese who wants to MOVE TO THE CITIES LOOKING FOR WORK! understand?? The Caste System on the other hand is based on class, and the belief that SOME PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR THAN OTHERS!! and the Dalits and lower castes suffer this discrimination because of WHO THEY ARE! not because of migration for jobs!!
So to summarise the Hukou system's primary objective is a regulatory system designed to regulate and control the flow of rural workers to the Cities, and any resultant discrimination is secondary! ie. the side effects or consequence of the system! Whilst the Caste system's primary objective is based exclusively on discrimination!! And this discrimination is meted out to those percieved to be inferior based on their birth!
So the Hukou system is "action based" ie. migration is required!! While the Caste system is automatic (not subject to a stimulus). So let me repeat the crucial difference again, UNLIKE INDIA, THERE'S NO DISCRIMINATION FOR WORKERS IN RURAL CHINA!!
Yes, Hakou system is introduced in a positive way to regulate the social pressure of the cities.But so was caste system introduced in a positive way to regulate the occupations in a soceity ! My aim in comparing the Hakou system with Caste system is to show you the narrow conclusions you will reach if you go by limited understandings of those systems. 'Caste' like systems are neither bad in their real meanings nor are they unique to one country.
'Caste' is not even an Indian word at all. Its derived from the portugese word 'casta'- a word used in europe in 15th century to describe the European 'Casta' system . When the portugese saw the Indian 'Jati' system (Jati meaning occupation), they mistook it to their Casta system and translated jati as Caste. Jati system is similar to the workers union of today.It was started to preserve the rights of the individual occupations.It was never intended to be heridetery. A crafts man' son can become a teacher and become part of teacher 'jati'. It was only in modern period that the jati system became degenerated into a heridetary thing requiring a reform.And the reforms are taking place and they are showing results.
OK can you provide me with some articles from credible sources (not exclusively indian please) about when the Caste system "turned bad" and on how good it was initially as you claimed?? Also does it really matter?? because its like arguing that murders are initially "good people" before they committed their crimes!! I mean aren't murders just murders??
Thats true, but then every system however good it is not perfect.And Indian democratic system even with the limitations of caste is much better than the chinese system with their Hakou's and Communist oligarchies !
Dude theres a big CONTRADICTION between the much touted Indian democracy and the Caste System understand? compared with Communism and the hukou system.
And I never said the Hukou system was a good or perfect system (because it isn't) anyway I thinks its being slowly removed (I'll try to find a link for you for next time)
I dont know if am not presenting myself incorrectly or you are intentionally misrepresenting my lines.I never said that Indian people 'will' have bad social indicators inspite of their better economy . I only said that in the past, India did had bad social indicators compared to china even though India was ahead of china in economic terms.As per your question, whether economic results automatically translates to better social indicators, not necessarily.For example, The saudis have better economic indicators but bad social indicators compared to the cubans.There are lot of examples like that.I am still trying to find the exact socio-economic reason for that,but all i can say at this moment is better economic indicators necessarily does not translate into better social indicators always.
OK then, perhaps you can explain to me under what circumstances will ordinary Indians enjoy better social and health parameters than the ordinary Chinese citizens if economic performance is not a main factor??
The reverse is also true.communist China's successes also got more attention in the west than India's successes were
Really?? perhaps you can give me some examples?
Thats right.But when you say whether a country is ahead in a certain field, one of the criterions used is the amount of penetration that field is in that respective country.Penetration in terms of usage of the technology.
LOL dude, I think there's a expanding market for mobile phones in Africa, so will you say that Africa is leading in mobile phone technology?? Dude your starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel LOL
//All I'm saying is it doesn't seem like the Indian political Leadership has given enough priority to the issue of Child mortality else it wouldn't be worst than Ethopia//
You are going in circles and circles.Indian political leadership is giving enough priority to the issue of child mortality.But those results will show in the future, not now.Today's indicators are the results of past, not the present.
//Dude I think its you whose refusing to acknowledge the difference! you're letting your pride cloud your judgement! The crucial difference is the Hukou system does NOT APPLY to all the chinese people who live and work in the rural areas of China!! they face NO DISCRIMINATION!! They can live and work EQUALLY like everyone else!! because theres NO SEGREGATION BASED ON CLASS IN RURAL CHINA!! The Hukou system only applies to those rural Chinese who wants to MOVE TO THE CITIES LOOKING FOR WORK! understand?? The Caste System on the other hand is based on class, and the belief that SOME PEOPLE ARE SUPERIOR THAN OTHERS!! and the Dalits and lower castes suffer this discrimination because of WHO THEY ARE! not because of migration for jobs!!//
Dude, differences will always be there between any two systems even within the same category.But it does not mean they are different as a whole.If your fundamental understanding of caste system is segregation,superiority feeling and discrimination based on birth, then China's Hakou system practises precisely that ! Using Deng's language, Hakou is 'Caste system with Chinese Characteristics'. Historically caste system in china did not start with Hakou though.The Yuan dynasty practised a classic caste system(as understood by you) during its time with the mongols being on the top pecking order followed by their central asian aristocrats followed by the northern chinese and southern chinese at the last pecking order.Even within southern china, the yi people do practise caste system (as understood by you). So inspite of differences, every culture including china practise caste system in various degrees and in various forms.
//So the Hukou system is "action based" ie. migration is required!! While the Caste system is automatic (not subject to a stimulus). So let me repeat the crucial difference again, UNLIKE INDIA, THERE'S NO DISCRIMINATION FOR WORKERS IN RURAL CHINA!! //
Dude, migration is a relative term.Migration just does not mean a worker migrating from say rural sichuan to shenzhen.It also means a worker migrating within a rural county in sichuan to another rural county where his Hakou is not registered which means that the workers are discriminated even within rural china.Also 'action based' caste system also involves 'discrimination by birth' since its his birth in rural areas which is used to discriminate against him in the urban areas !
//OK can you provide me with some articles from credible sources (not exclusively indian please) about when the Caste system "turned bad" and on how good it was initially as you claimed?? //
Its actually hard to find any unbaised account of caste system by non-Indians because of their fundamental understanding of the word 'caste' itself is wrong and is product of their own prejudices.For westerners whose understanding of eastern soceities is very narrow,caste is reduced to race and casteism to racism.Even the non-Indian eastern people(for whom the 'understanding' of Indian soceity comes primarily through western eyes), the same western prejudices gets reinforced.My intention in comparing the Hakou to caste is presicely to show what will happen if two eastern soceities try to look at each other through western lens.
Here is one of the few non-Indian researcher who studied caste by staying in India and absorbing it closely.
//Also does it really matter?? because its like arguing that murders are initially "good people" before they committed their crimes!! I mean aren't murders just murders??//
The correct anology for caste is not murderers but religion.Just like in its real meaning. religion was introduced for good purposes(but lost its relevance today because of its rigidity), caste too was introduced for good purposes but got rigid later on !
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//Dude theres a big CONTRADICTION between the much touted Indian democracy and the Caste System understand? compared with Communism and the hukou system.//
Yes that is a contradiction but tell me one system in the world which does not have any contradictions ?
//Really?? perhaps you can give me some examples?//
Communist china's succesess in scientific fields recieve more favorable coverage in the west compared to democratic India's successes in the same fields.How many western papers critise china's space programe for diverting funds away from developmental needs as they routinely say about Indian space programme although the budget for Indian space programme is small both in absolute amounts and as a percentage of gdp compared to most major space nations ?
"LOL dude, I think there's a expanding market for mobile phones in Africa, so will you say that Africa is leading in mobile phone technology?? Dude your starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel "
Dude, as usual you undertstood me wrong.To use your example, if africa is an expanding market for mobile phones, then certainly african countries are the emerging countries in mobile phone 'field' (due to their market size) ! Dont you think so ? You dont have to necessarily be a leader in technology to be called a leader in a field.Your size and the amount of money which your size generates automatically makes you a strong contender in that field.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides- RigVeda
You are going in circles and circles.Indian political leadership is giving enough priority to the issue of child mortality.But those results will show in the future, not now.Today's indicators are the results of past, not the present.
So do you think your govt has done a good job then?? and are you proud of the results??
Dude, differences will always be there between any two systems even within the same category.But it does not mean they are different as a whole.If your fundamental understanding of caste system is segregation,superiority feeling and discrimination based on birth, then China's Hakou system practises precisely that ! Using Deng's language, Hakou is 'Caste system with Chinese Characteristics'. Historically caste system in china did not start with Hakou though.The Yuan dynasty practised a classic caste system(as understood by you) during its time with the mongols being on the top pecking order followed by their central asian aristocrats followed by the northern chinese and southern chinese at the last pecking order.Even within southern china, the yi people do practise caste system (as understood by you). So inspite of differences, every culture including china practise caste system in various degrees and in various forms.
Dude we're talking about whats happening NOW, not centuries ago!
Dude, migration is a relative term.Migration just does not mean a worker migrating from say rural sichuan to shenzhen.It also means a worker migrating within a rural county in sichuan to another rural county where his Hakou is not registered which means that the workers are discriminated even within rural china.Also 'action based' caste system also involves 'discrimination by birth' since its his birth in rural areas which is used to discriminate against him in the urban areas !
Yes theres still some restrictions even when moving from one rural province to another, but its far more lax than moving to the cities! because the Hukou system is geared toward regulating the influx of migrants towards the cities.
Let me illustrate the crucial differences again to you:
1. The Hukou system is implemented and enforced soley by the Government, which means it can be easily abolished by the government so the Hukou system can be very quickly removed from Chinese society. However the same can not be said about the Caste system because the Caste system is not enforced by the Indian government instead it is enforced by Indian society and its deeply intertwined with Indian culture, it has a massive support base especially in rural India and because the Caste system has such a massive support at the grass root level makes it extremely differcult to remove and get rid of.
2. The Hukou system has NO connection with religion, while the Caste system beats at the heart of hinduism, its deeply embedded and intergrated with religion. This messy and complex entanglement ensure it will be extremely differcult to remove (in fact your article from Hinduismtoday.com proves how deeply entrenched the Caste system is with Hinduism).
3. As I have repeatly said the Hukou system only applies to people want to migrate (especially to cities) For the people who don't want to migrate there are no restriction (so it has more to do with migration than birth) these same people can eat or drink where ever and with whoever they like, interact and form relationships with whoever they like, worship in the same places as everyone else, No "off limit" places in their locality, Not forced to do disgusting jobs, NOT beaten raped or killed by other local Chinese for not complying with elaborate Caste rules. NOW CAN YOU SAY THE SAME REGARDING THE CASTE SYSTEM IN RURAL INDIA??
So to summerise THE HUKOU SYSTEM CAN BE REMOVED VERY QUICKLY WHILST THE CASTE SYSTEM IS EXTREMELY DIFFERCULT TO REMOVE AND WILL PROBABLY STILL BE AROUND FOR A VERY LONG TIME TO COME!
Its actually hard to find any unbaised account of caste system by non-Indians because of their fundamental understanding of the word 'caste' itself is wrong and is product of their own prejudices.For westerners whose understanding of eastern soceities is very narrow,caste is reduced to race and casteism to racism.Even the non-Indian eastern people(for whom the 'understanding' of Indian soceity comes primarily through western eyes), the same western prejudices gets reinforced.My intention in comparing the Hakou to caste is presicely to show what will happen if two eastern soceities try to look at each other through western lens.
Here is one of the few non-Indian researcher who studied caste by staying in India and absorbing it closely.
The correct anology for caste is not murderers but religion.Just like in its real meaning. religion was introduced for good purposes(but lost its relevance today because of its rigidity), caste too was introduced for good purposes but got rigid later on !
After reading your article I see very little of the initial "good" you've been talking about, the only real merit I could see was the Caste system's deep roots and strict dogma in Hinduism helped Indians repulse the influence of foreign religions but that does not make it "good" as you claim especially for the lower castes. Your article actually reinforces my belief of how very important the Caste system is both historically and culturally to Hinduism, its essentially a integral part of the constitution of Hinduism, and severing it from the religion will be very problematic and near impossible! (especially in the short term).
Yes that is a contradiction but tell me one system in the world which does not have any contradictions ?
I think its very hard to find two systems in the world that has such a stark contrast don't you think?
Communist china's succesess in scientific fields recieve more favorable coverage in the west compared to democratic India's successes in the same fields.How many western papers critise china's space programe for diverting funds away from developmental needs as they routinely say about Indian space programme although the budget for Indian space programme is small both in absolute amounts and as a percentage of gdp compared to most major space nations ?
Hmmm could it be that China's space program was more advanced than India's space program?? Can you show these foreign criticisms your talking about?? (links please)
Dude, as usual you undertstood me wrong.To use your example, if africa is an expanding market for mobile phones, then certainly african countries are the emerging countries in mobile phone 'field' (due to their market size) ! Dont you think so ? You dont have to necessarily be a leader in technology to be called a leader in a field.Your size and the amount of money which your size generates automatically makes you a strong contender in that field.
LOL dude if you truly believe that simply buying more products equate to leading in that technological field then you must be pretty dense, because everyone knows it is R&D thats the driver for advancement and innovation, and whoever is ahead in those departments holds the exclusive key to massive profits and other benefits. ITS JUST FREAKING COMMON SENSE!! your just clutching at straws dude lol
And dude why did you avoid one of my previous questions?? well here it is again:
Perhaps you can explain to me under what circumstances will ordinary Indians enjoy better social and health parameters than the ordinary Chinese citizens if economic performance is not a main factor??
Lastly will you disappear for nearly 2 weeks again before replying?? lol
This message has been edited by tron. on Oct 12, 2008 5:00 AM
\\So do you think your govt has done a good job then?? and are you proud of the results??\\
I would not say i am proud of the results as of yet .The govt can do much better than this.But your contention that the govt is not doing anything at all is also not correct.
\\Dude we're talking about whats happening NOW, not centuries ago!\\
Hakou is still practised in china and the yi people still practise their version of caste system.So we are not talking about centuries ago events, but current events.
\\Yes theres still some restrictions even when moving from one rural province to another, but its far more lax than moving to the cities! because the Hukou system is geared toward regulating the influx of migrants towards the cities.\\
There may be less discrimination in Hakou system when moving from one rural area to another rural area, but there is discrimination nonetheless.The discrimination only increases as we move towards more urban areas and cities !
\\The Hukou system is implemented and enforced soley by the Government, which means it can be easily abolished by the government so the Hukou system can be very quickly removed from Chinese society.\\
That's a lame excuse. The 'goverment' you are talking about is not some foreign govt.Its chinese govt implementing Hakou system on chinese people.To say that Hakou can be quickly removed is purely speculative.The chinese have not removed Hakou system yet and ths where it stands.
\\However the same can not be said about the Caste system because the Caste system is not enforced by the Indian government instead it is enforced by Indian society and its deeply intertwined with Indian culture, it has a massive support base especially in rural India and because the Caste system has such a massive support at the grass root level makes it extremely differcult to remove and get rid of.\\
Caste system has nothing to do with Indian culture.It has to do with governing of Indian soceity just like Hakou has to do with governing of chinese soceity.In India, the soceity has made the laws to govern itself and in china, the same thing is done by the government with support from the chinese people.The chinese beleive that they can blame every ills of their soceity on the communist party which is not the case.
\\The Hukou system has NO connection with religion, while the Caste system beats at the heart of hinduism, its deeply embedded and intergrated with religion. This messy and complex entanglement ensure it will be extremely differcult to remove (in fact your article from Hinduismtoday.com proves how deeply entrenched the Caste system is with Hinduism).\\
That is simply not true.Hinduism as a religion has nothing to do with caste system.There is nothing in the Hindu philosphy which supports caste system. The very fact that your understanding of Hinduismtoday.com article is exactly opposite to what it wants to convey tells more about your pre conceived notions getting reflected on your opinions than anything else.Can you give which paras did you find in that article which proves that caste system beats at the heart of Hinduism ? Hakou system may not have connection with religion since religion itself is very vague in china, but its as much wide spread and its effects far more devastating then the caste system.Even going by your narrow view of caste system,Caste system (as understood by you) effects only Hindus(according to you).But Hakou effects every chinese irrespective of his religious affiliation which makes it even more dangerous than caste system if we go by your understanding !
\\As I have repeatly said the Hukou system only applies to people want to migrate (especially to cities) For the people who don't want to migrate there are no restriction (so it has more to do with migration than birth) these same people can eat or drink where ever and with whoever they like, interact and form relationships with whoever they like, worship in the same places as everyone else, No "off limit" places in their locality, Not forced to do disgusting jobs, NOT beaten raped or killed by other local Chinese for not complying with elaborate Caste rules. NOW CAN YOU SAY THE SAME REGARDING THE CASTE SYSTEM IN RURAL INDIA??\\
Going by your understanding even caste system is not discriminatory ipso facto. As long as people stay within their own caste, there is nothing in caste system which discriminates against anyone just like as long as people saty in their own Hakou's there is nothing discrimination about Hakou system.Your logic to make Hakou system look better than caste system by invoking 'off limits' places etc does not cut much ice since as i have said in my previous posts, even with in the same category of systems you will find micro differences even when you have similarity in macro sense.
\\So to summerise THE HUKOU SYSTEM CAN BE REMOVED VERY QUICKLY WHILST THE CASTE SYSTEM IS EXTREMELY DIFFERCULT TO REMOVE AND WILL PROBABLY STILL BE AROUND FOR A VERY LONG TIME TO COME!\\
That is again speculation.Hakou system is still not removed from chinese soceity and caste system is not that permanently entrenched in Indian soceity.To make one thing look better than other by showing some differences is nothing more than a hyperbole. Caste system has it advantages and disadvantages like any other system.To potray caste as inherently wrong is neither correct nor accurate.Hakou too has its disadvantages and advantages like any other system.
\\After reading your article I see very little of the initial "good" you've been talking about, the only real merit I could see was the Caste system's deep roots and strict dogma in Hinduism helped Indians repulse the influence of foreign religions but that does not make it "good" as you claim especially for the lower castes. Your article actually reinforces my belief of how very important the Caste system is both historically and culturally to Hinduism, its essentially a integral part of the constitution of Hinduism, and severing it from the religion will be very problematic and near impossible! (especially in the short term).\\
Nowhere in that article it says that Caste is inherent to Hindu 'constitution" ( There is nothing called Hindu constitution by the way). The article only states that Caste is not inherently wrong as it is always potrayed by outsiders.Caste did played a substancial role in Indian soceity historically and socially (not culturally though.There is nothing cultural about caste) and its precisely partly because of that the Indian soceity did not disintegrate inspite of many outside invasions.That is not a small acheivement.The article also states that caste like systems are not unique to India either.And the article took the example of europe.Europe could have been easily be replaced by china in that article !
\\I think its very hard to find two systems in the world that has such a stark contrast don't you think?\\
I dont think so. Every system has its own 'stark contrasts'.The western soceity in spite of their democracy has their racism.China inspite of their 'egalitarian' communist ideology practises the improved version of slave system !
\\Hmmm could it be that China's space program was more advanced than India's space program?? Can you show these foreign criticisms your talking about?? (links please)\\
Whether china's space programme is ahead of India or not can be debated and its not the point either.The very fact that the western press routinely mentions about Indian poverty etc in every report on Indian space programme (there by implying that India might be diverting its resources from poverty allevation which is not true) and they not mentioning the same thing on chinese space programme clearly indicates the wrong perception of western press on both India and china.I can provide you the links but we can wait for another 15 days when India intends to send its un manned lunal mission and we will have tens of these western reports which routinely clubs both India's space programme and India's poverty figures in the same report there by wrongly suggesting a link between the two.
\\LOL dude if you truly believe that simply buying more products equate to leading in that technological field then you must be pretty dense, because everyone knows it is R&D thats the driver for advancement and innovation, and whoever is ahead in those departments holds the exclusive key to massive profits and other benefits. ITS JUST FREAKING COMMON SENSE!! your just clutching at straws dude lol\\
Again, Please read what i said in my previous post. I think i was pretty clear that if a country is a huge market for a particular product, its automatically is considered a prominent player in that field(not necessarily in that technological innovation of that product).
\\And dude why did you avoid one of my previous questions?? well here it is again:
Perhaps you can explain to me under what circumstances will ordinary Indians enjoy better social and health parameters than the ordinary Chinese citizens if economic performance is not a main factor??\\
As i explained in my previous posts, i could not figure out the exact reason why certain countries have better social indicators than others inspite of having lesser per capita income than other countries.So i would not be able to explain to you under what circumstances Indians will enjoy better health parameters than chinese if economic performance is not main factor.All i can say is economic prosperity does not always automatically translate to better social indicators automatically.
\\Lastly will you disappear for nearly 2 weeks again before replying?? lol\\
Possibly even more than that. I am not forcing anyone to reply to my posts.I will post at my convineince when time permits me to spend some time on this forum.
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Let Noble Thoughts Come to Us from All Sides- RigVeda
I would not say i am proud of the results as of yet .The govt can do much better than this.But your contention that the govt is not doing anything at all is also not correct.
I never said the Indian govt wasn't doing anything at all, I said it wasn't doing enough!
Hakou is still practised in china and the yi people still practise their version of caste system.So we are not talking about centuries ago events, but current events.
Hakou isn't a caste system, its primary role is migration. The Yi people are a tiny minority (about 8 million) they may had traditionally practised a kind of caste system, do you have any proof they still practise caste today??
There may be less discrimination in Hakou system when moving from one rural area to another rural area, but there is discrimination nonetheless.The discrimination only increases as we move towards more urban areas and cities !
That's a lame excuse. The 'goverment' you are talking about is not some foreign govt.Its chinese govt implementing Hakou system on chinese people.To say that Hakou can be quickly removed is purely speculative.The chinese have not removed Hakou system yet and ths where it stands.
Let me repeat, the Hukou system is "government based" while the Caste system is "society based", the Hukou system is simply A LAW PASSED BY THE GOVERNMENT which means the govt can simply pass another law to abolish it!!. Now regarding the Caste system, your Indian govt has already tried to ban the Caste system but it persists regardless because it has mass support especially in rural India by the ordinary Indians on the ground which means it is deeply entrenched in Indian society therefore very differcult to get rid of.
Remember the Hukou system is simply A PIECE OF LEGISLATION! IT CAN BE CHANGED! which is far more than I can say about your caste system!
Caste system has nothing to do with Indian culture.It has to do with governing of Indian soceity just like Hakou has to do with governing of chinese soceity.In India, the soceity has made the laws to govern itself and in china, the same thing is done by the government with support from the chinese people.The chinese beleive that they can blame every ills of their soceity on the communist party which is not the case.
First of all "culture" is a very general and subjective meaning, it can encompass many things like "ideas" and "beliefs" and "way of life" therefore I think caste can be included in there. Also isn't the government that is meant to govern the people?? rather than society? So does Indian society condone and support the acts of punishing those dalits who happen to drink water from a well that belong to the upper castes?? support the beatings meted out to those unfortunate lower castes whom wondered into areas "reserved" for upper castes?? support the ridiculous segregation of the lower castes from temples belonging to the upper castes?? Condone the killings and rapes done to those Indians from different castes whom have developed close relationships?? Support forcing the dalits and lower castes to doing the most disgusting jobs?? Support bonded labour and depriving the dalits of land ownership?? etc BECAUSE ALL OF THESE ARE DONE IN THE NAME OF THE CASTE SYSTEM! so do you and the Indian society support these acts?? because it is Indian society who made these rules!!
Don't forget the Indian govt has banned Caste and offically don't support it.
And also I wonder if the Caste system was initially good and later got corrupted and turned bad (as you always claimed) Why did the Indians continue to practise Caste for thousands of years later? even whilst knowing its gotten corrupted and bad?? Doesn't that speak volumes??
That is simply not true.Hinduism as a religion has nothing to do with caste system.There is nothing in the Hindu philosphy which supports caste system. The very fact that your understanding of Hinduismtoday.com article is exactly opposite to what it wants to convey tells more about your pre conceived notions getting reflected on your opinions than anything else.Can you give which paras did you find in that article which proves that caste system beats at the heart of Hinduism ? Hakou system may not have connection with religion since religion itself is very vague in china, but its as much wide spread and its effects far more devastating then the caste system.Even going by your narrow view of caste system,Caste system (as understood by you) effects only Hindus(according to you).But Hakou effects every chinese irrespective of his religious affiliation which makes it even more dangerous than caste system if we go by your understanding !
The very fact that Hinduism owns its survival to the Caste system shows theres a very important bond and connection between the two!! as shown by your article from hinduismtoday.com, and heres a part of a paragraph that shows the connection clearly:
"Whereas Buddhism was swept away as soon as its monasteries were destroyed, Hinduism retreated into its caste structure and weathered the storm."
As regards to the caste system only affecting Hindus, don't the Hindus make up over 80 percent of the population in India??
Going by your understanding even caste system is not discriminatory ipso facto. As long as people stay within their own caste, there is nothing in caste system which discriminates against anyone just like as long as people saty in their own Hakou's there is nothing discrimination about Hakou system.Your logic to make Hakou system look better than caste system by invoking 'off limits' places etc does not cut much ice since as i have said in my previous posts, even with in the same category of systems you will find micro differences even when you have similarity in macro sense.
the Hukou system is usually applied to provinces only! Do you know how big a province is in China?? China is divided into approx 23 provinces, So a Chinese person is free from restriction within the vast area of a province!! So do Dalits and lower castes have the freedom to walk, eat, drink, worship, work, owning land, socialise and have relationships in a area the size of a Chinese province?? I very much doubt it! lol
That is again speculation.Hakou system is still not removed from chinese soceity and caste system is not that permanently entrenched in Indian soceity.To make one thing look better than other by showing some differences is nothing more than a hyperbole. Caste system has it advantages and disadvantages like any other system.To potray caste as inherently wrong is neither correct nor accurate.Hakou too has its disadvantages and advantages like any other system.
Ok then, show me one great advantage the Caste system has thats applicable in the 21st century??
Nowhere in that article it says that Caste is inherent to Hindu 'constitution" ( There is nothing called Hindu constitution by the way). The article only states that Caste is not inherently wrong as it is always potrayed by outsiders.Caste did played a substancial role in Indian soceity historically and socially (not culturally though.There is nothing cultural about caste) and its precisely partly because of that the Indian soceity did not disintegrate inspite of many outside invasions.That is not a small acheivement.The article also states that caste like systems are not unique to India either.And the article took the example of europe.Europe could have been easily be replaced by china in that article !
Yes "constitution" was probably a inapproprate word to use, I should have used "bond"
Firstly yes there were caste like systems (eg serfdom) that happened in PAST HISTORY all around the world, but that doesn't excuse or make the caste system acceptable presently does it??
Whether china's space programme is ahead of India or not can be debated and its not the point either.The very fact that the western press routinely mentions about Indian poverty etc in every report on Indian space programme (there by implying that India might be diverting its resources from poverty allevation which is not true) and they not mentioning the same thing on chinese space programme clearly indicates the wrong perception of western press on both India and china.I can provide you the links but we can wait for another 15 days when India intends to send its un manned lunal mission and we will have tens of these western reports which routinely clubs both India's space programme and India's poverty figures in the same report there by wrongly suggesting a link between the two.
So even when foreign media articles DON'T actually mention theres a diversion of funds to the space program, you automatically assume that this is what they are saying?? LOL dude your beginning to sound ridiculous!! Dude I mean both India and China are developing countries! theres no point in hiding that fact! And usually when the western media is writing about "the East" its usually not in glowing terms anyway, so I don't understand your slight paranoia about it lol
Also you said:
"the western press routinely mentions about Indian poverty etc IN EVERY REPORT on Indian space programme"
Care to provide some evidence to back that up??
Again, Please read what i said in my previous post. I think i was pretty clear that if a country is a huge market for a particular product, its automatically is considered a prominent player in that field(not necessarily in that technological innovation of that product).
A "prominent player" does NOT equate to LEADING TECHNOLOGIALLY DOES IT?? LOL
As i explained in my previous posts, i could not figure out the exact reason why certain countries have better social indicators than others inspite of having lesser per capita income than other countries.So i would not be able to explain to you under what circumstances Indians will enjoy better health parameters than chinese if economic performance is not main factor.All i can say is economic prosperity does not always automatically translate to better social indicators automatically.
Dude this is a relevant and important question, because you stated in the title of this thread that India is closing the gap with China so if that was true, then improving the lives of the ordinary Indian citizens should be one of the important goals right?? So once again:
Can you explain to me under what circumstances will ordinary Indians enjoy better social and health parameters than the ordinary Chinese citizens if economic performance is not a main factor??
Its a straight forward question dude!
Possibly even more than that. I am not forcing anyone to reply to my posts.I will post at my convineince when time permits me to spend some time on this forum.
Yeah take your time dude, don't mind me, I'm only going to fall into a coma waiting for you LOL
\\Hakou isn't a caste system, its primary role is migration. The Yi people are a tiny minority (about 8 million) they may had traditionally practised a kind of caste system, do you have any proof they still practise caste today??\\
Hakou is a classic example of caste system(as understood by you).If your understanding of caste system is discrimination by birth and rigidity of social hierarchy, Hakou practises both of them.If you want to justify Hakou saying its primary role is migration, you also need to know that caste system's primary role is social security.As i said in my previous posts, unlike your narrow understanding of both caste(in negative sense) and Hakou(in positive sense), i have a much broader underatanding of both the systems with all their merits and de merits.With respect to Yi, i havent read anywhere that they have stoped practising caste system.
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\\Let me repeat, the Hukou system is "government based" while the Caste system is "society based", the Hukou system is simply A LAW PASSED BY THE GOVERNMENT which means the govt can simply pass another law to abolish it!!.\\
Let me also repeat again.The Hakou is succesfull in china, not only because it is 'govt based' but because the general chinese population beleives in such actions.Just like communism is succesfully in china not because it was forced by the CPC but the general chinese population in the 1930s and 1950s genuinely beleived in the communist ideology.As i said in my previous post, the chinese should stop balming every thing on the communist part and should take responsibility of their deeds or misdeeds.Also the chinese Govt has not passed any law to abolish Hakou.As such to speculate on that possibility is just not correct.
\\Now regarding the Caste system, your Indian govt has already tried to ban the Caste system but it persists regardless because it has mass support especially in rural India by the ordinary Indians on the ground which means it is deeply entrenched in Indian society therefore very differcult to get rid of.\\
Caste system(in its real meaning) is a genuine need of every soceity.Caste system in moden sense is nothing but a labour union catering to their specific constituents.As such there is no real reason to even ban it in its entirety.Yes, there are discriminations done in the name of caste system just like there are numerous instances of voilence committed in the name of monotheistic religions.As i said, caste like systems are present in every country.It s just that they are called by different names and operate in different environments,frequencies and different ways.They are not necessarily evil as you are trying to potray.They have their advantages as well as disadvantages.Hakou is a an example of that.
\\First of all "culture" is a very general and subjective meaning, it can encompass many things like "ideas" and "beliefs" and "way of life" therefore I think caste can be included in there.\\
As you said culture is a general and have a subjective meaning which inturn implies that it can be interpreted in different ways.Just like you intrepret social issues like caste as part of Indian culture, i can intrepret social issues like Hakou and supression of human rights in general as part of chinese culture.
\\Also isn't the government that is meant to govern the people?? rather than society? So does Indian society condone and support the acts of punishing those dalits who happen to drink water from a well that belong to the upper castes??support the beatings meted out to those unfortunate lower castes whom wondered into areas "reserved" for upper castes?? support the ridiculous segregation of the lower castes from temples belonging to the upper castes?? Condone the killings and rapes done to those Indians from different castes whom have developed close relationships?? Support forcing the dalits and lower castes to doing the most disgusting jobs?? Support bonded labour and depriving the dalits of land ownership?? etc BECAUSE ALL OF THESE ARE DONE IN THE NAME OF THE CASTE SYSTEM! so do you and the Indian society support these acts?? because it is Indian society who made these rules!!\\
Just because some acts are committed in the name of caste system does not mean that the system itself is wrong in its entirety.Far more henious crimes are committed in the name of religion through out history and still continuing.If inspite of all the evidence that monotheistic religions committed in the name of God, people still refuse to ban religion, then there is no need to ban Caste just because some acts are committed in the name of caste system.Just like religions need reform, ideologies like communism need reform to be relevent in the current period, in the same way caste also need reform . Caste is neither bad in its real meaning nor does it need to banned in its entirety.
\\And also I wonder if the Caste system was initially good and later got corrupted and turned bad (as you always claimed) Why did the Indians continue to practise Caste for thousands of years later? even whilst knowing its gotten corrupted and bad?? Doesn't that speak volumes??\\
As i said previously, caste is a necessary social organ for any soceity.Division of soceity based on their professions is prevelant in all soceities without exception.In India it only became more codified and got a name for itself.As it got corrupted later on , the system itself got a bad name.Just like Karl Marx message for unity among workers was not a bad idea in itself.But later on as his teachings got corruted, they became more draconian and the soviets and chinese took it to the extreme and as such because of their repressive policies, communism itself got a bad name.Indians continue to practise caste since caste is not a wrong system. just like chinese continue to patronise communism inspite of the repressive things committed in its name.
\\The very fact that Hinduism owns its survival to the Caste system shows theres a very important bond and connection between the two!!\\
That argument is flawed since many ideologies and religions owe their current status to many unplesant things which necessarily does not indicate whether the system itself is good or bad.Islam and Christianity both owe their propogation to the sword and state power.Communism itself was succesfull because of the barrel of the gun.But neither Jesus nor Max never advocated voilence as practised by christians or communists, although mohammed in certain exceptional cases did advocated voilence.Hindus used caste as a tool in a desperate situation to protect themselves from islamic and christian persecution.To say that invariably implies Hinduism equals caste is a gross misjudgement.As the persecution of Hindus by muslims and christians increased, caste became more rigid as caste system stood as a wall between the indiginous people and the foreign invaders.This is not different from what happened in china during the mongol yuan dynasty.
\\as shown by your article from hinduismtoday.com, and heres a part of a paragraph that shows the connection clearly:
"Whereas Buddhism was swept away as soon as its monasteries were destroyed, Hinduism retreated into its caste structure and weathered the storm." \\
The very fact that the author is comparing Monasteries to Caste should give an indication to you about what the author is trying to imply.Buddhism is not all about monasteries neither did it started with monasteries.But monasteries were required in later period due to specific social conditions.In the same way, Hinduism is not caste nor Hinduism started with caste.But in the later periods, caste was introduced as a specific measure to cater to the needs of the specific social conditions of that time.Caste is purely a social issue, not a religious issue.
\\the Hukou system is usually applied to provinces only! Do you know how big a province is in China?? China is divided into approx 23 provinces, So a Chinese person is free from restriction within the vast area of a province!! So do Dalits and lower castes have the freedom to walk, eat, drink, worship, work, owning land, socialise and have relationships in a area the size of a Chinese province?? I very much doubt it! lol \\
You may doubt it but the dalit(dalit is a anglicised word, not a Indian one.The correct word is Harijan) or whoever have a freedom to do whatever in the entire country unlike the restrictions the chinese face when they move outside the Hakou registration area.As with any other country and system, discriminations do occur in India,but they are limited in nature.Not to speak that caste is not supported by the Indian govt while Hakou is officially sanctioned by the chinese govt.
\\Firstly yes there were caste like systems (eg serfdom) that happened in PAST HISTORY all around the world, but that doesn't excuse or make the caste system acceptable presently does it??\\
Firstly serfdom is not caste.Serfdom is pure slavery while caste is not. But because of the codification of caste during the islamic middle ages and christian colonial rule, a part of caste degenerated and this degenerated part became prominantly displayed to outsiders who mistook that caste is nothing but serfdom.And since caste (like religion) is not bad in its real meaning, there is no reason to not to accept it in present times.
\\So even when foreign media articles DON'T actually mention theres a diversion of funds to the space program, you automatically assume that this is what they are saying?? LOL dude your beginning to sound ridiculous!!\\
I am not being ridiculous dude, it was you who are behaving like an ignorant.One dont have to say something directly to convey things. The very fact the western media repeatedly uses poverty and Indian space programme in the same report implies that they want to convey that India should not be 'wasting'(in their words) funds for space programme.
\\Dude I mean both India and China are developing countries! theres no point in hiding that fact! And usually when the western media is writing about "the East" its usually not in glowing terms anyway, so I don't understand your slight paranoia about it lol\\
Dude, it was you who was whining that the western media says bad things about china compared to India.It was as a response to that wrong allegation, that i said that even India has a its fair share of bad coverage from western media. And as a proff of it, i took the western coverage of India's space programme.Now you are acting dumb ? LOL
"the western press routinely mentions about Indian poverty etc IN EVERY REPORT on Indian space programme" Care to provide some evidence to back that up?? \\
Ok. I should not have generalised.But you also did generalised with respect to your allegation that the west talks all bad about china !
\\Dude this is a relevant and important question, because you stated in the title of this thread that India is closing the gap with China so if that was true, then improving the lives of the ordinary Indian citizens should be one of the important goals right?? So once again: Can you explain to me under what circumstances will ordinary Indians enjoy better social and health parameters than the ordinary Chinese citizens if economic performance is not a main factor?? Its a straight forward question dude! \\
What is your point dude ? I said that there are countries in the world which are socially advanced but not necessarily economically advanced.I still did not find the specifc social or economic reason for that.I am still unable to understand your obsession with this thing.If you are implying that India wont be able to close the social indicators gap with china unless its also improves economically, then that is debatable since there are countries that are socially advanced but not economically advanced than other countries.
Yes, the Indian Govt can do much better than what it is doing.Just like chinese govt also can do much better in what it is doing.
Yeah your Indian govt is doing a really good job! LOL
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7669152.stm excerpt Twelve Indian states have "alarming" levels of hunger while the situation is "extremely alarming" in the state of Madhya Pradesh, says a new report. Madhya Pradesh's nutrition problems, it says, are comparable to the African countries of Ethiopia and Chad. India has more people suffering hunger - a figure above 200 million - than any other country in the world, it says.
Hakou is a classic example of caste system(as understood by you).If your understanding of caste system is discrimination by birth and rigidity of social hierarchy, Hakou practises both of them.If you want to justify Hakou saying its primary role is migration, you also need to know that caste system's primary role is social security.As i said in my previous posts, unlike your narrow understanding of both caste(in negative sense) and Hakou(in positive sense), i have a much broader underatanding of both the systems with all their merits and de merits.With respect to Yi, i havent read anywhere that they have stoped practising caste system.
OK, show me proof that the Hukou system is a PROPER CASTE SYSTEM?? (from credible sources please)
Regarding the Yi people, you emphatically claimed previously that the Yi people were still currently practising Caste!!
Heres what you previously said:
"Hakou is still practised in china and the yi people still practise their version of caste system.So we are not talking about centuries ago events, but current events"
So wheres your evidence??
Let me also repeat again.The Hakou is succesfull in china, not only because it is 'govt based' but because the general chinese population beleives in such actions.Just like communism is succesfully in china not because it was forced by the CPC but the general chinese population in the 1930s and 1950s genuinely beleived in the communist ideology.As i said in my previous post, the chinese should stop balming every thing on the communist part and should take responsibility of their deeds or misdeeds.Also the chinese Govt has not passed any law to abolish Hakou.As such to speculate on that possibility is just not correct.
So the general Chinese population support the Hukou system?? Even the rural Chinese people who make up the majority of the population?? got proof??
Also are you saying the Hukou isn't just law passed by the govt?? And the CCP hasn't the authority to abolished it??
Caste system(in its real meaning) is a genuine need of every soceity.Caste system in moden sense is nothing but a labour union catering to their specific constituents.As such there is no real reason to even ban it in its entirety.Yes, there are discriminations done in the name of caste system just like there are numerous instances of voilence committed in the name of monotheistic religions.As i said, caste like systems are present in every country.It s just that they are called by different names and operate in different environments,frequencies and different ways.They are not necessarily evil as you are trying to potray.They have their advantages as well as disadvantages.Hakou is a an example of that.
The Caste system is a LABOUR UNION?? LOL, Show me some credible sources (not Indian) who will give it that definition?? LOL
Caste systems are present in every country nowadays?? got proof to support this ridiculous assertion of yours?? eg. Show me some democratic countries who practise the same caste system as you Indians??
As you said culture is a general and have a subjective meaning which inturn implies that it can be interpreted in different ways.Just like you intrepret social issues like caste as part of Indian culture, i can intrepret social issues like Hakou and supression of human rights in general as part of chinese culture.
Dude the Hukou system was created in the 1950s and the suppression of "human rights" has primary become a issue because the CCP govt is communist!! both have been in existence for approx 5 decades only!! while the Caste system has existed in India for over THREE THOUSAND YEARS!!
Just because some acts are committed in the name of caste system does not mean that the system itself is wrong in its entirety.Far more henious crimes are committed in the name of religion through out history and still continuing.If inspite of all the evidence that monotheistic religions committed in the name of God, people still refuse to ban religion, then there is no need to ban Caste just because some acts are committed in the name of caste system.Just like religions need reform, ideologies like communism need reform to be relevent in the current period, in the same way caste also need reform . Caste is neither bad in its real meaning nor does it need to banned in its entirety.
Didn't you say that the Caste system has nothing to do with religion?? So why are you suddenly trying to link the two together?? lol
Yes there were crimes committed in the name of religion, but the difference is in most countries people have the FREEDOM OF CHOICE regarding religion!! They can choose which religion they want to practise! or choose NOT TO PRACTISE ANY RELIGION AT ALL! whilst the Caste system is AUTOMATIC it is forced a upon the Dalits and lower castes!! I mean do the Dalits and lower caste Indians have the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE as to whether they want to be a part of the Indian Caste system??
And the fact that you actually support the Caste system says alot about you! LOL (btw I don't support the Hukou system).
As i said previously, caste is a necessary social organ for any soceity.Division of soceity based on their professions is prevelant in all soceities without exception.In India it only became more codified and got a name for itself.As it got corrupted later on , the system itself got a bad name.Just like Karl Marx message for unity among workers was not a bad idea in itself.But later on as his teachings got corruted, they became more draconian and the soviets and chinese took it to the extreme and as such because of their repressive policies, communism itself got a bad name.Indians continue to practise caste since caste is not a wrong system. just like chinese continue to patronise communism inspite of the repressive things committed in its name.
The Chinese has only practised Communism for approx 60 years and Communism was probably already "corrupted" when it reached China, and the Chinese people may have embraced Communism initially because of the extreme conditions at that time in our history, but thereafter the centralised authoritarian CCP rule has denied the general Chinese populace the freedom to choose another system!! While in contrast Indians has practised Caste at the very beginning when it was "pure" (as you claimed) yet when it became "corrupted" they continue to practice it even though it turned into a nightmare for millions of the lower castes Indians for thousands of years!! So why is that??
At the end of the day, regarding Communism the Chinese presently don't have the FREEDOM to choose another system, China isn't a democracy!! but in contrast INDIA IS A DEMOCRACY RIGHT?? INDIANS ENJOY FREEDOM RIGHT?? (or at least thats what you Indians continue to brag to us about). SO WHY DO INDIANS CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO PRACTISE CASTE IN ITS PRESENT FORM??
That argument is flawed since many ideologies and religions owe their current status to many unplesant things which necessarily does not indicate whether the system itself is good or bad.Islam and Christianity both owe their propogation to the sword and state power.Communism itself was succesfull because of the barrel of the gun.But neither Jesus nor Max never advocated voilence as practised by christians or communists, although mohammed in certain exceptional cases did advocated voilence.Hindus used caste as a tool in a desperate situation to protect themselves from islamic and christian persecution.To say that invariably implies Hinduism equals caste is a gross misjudgement.As the persecution of Hindus by muslims and christians increased, caste became more rigid as caste system stood as a wall between the indiginous people and the foreign invaders.This is not different from what happened in china during the mongol yuan dynasty.
Dude the Mongol dynasty happened CENTURIES AGO!! LOL
And I simply stated that Hinduism owes its very survival to the Caste system isn't that the truth?? and doesn't that prove there is a bond??
The very fact that the author is comparing Monasteries to Caste should give an indication to you about what the author is trying to imply.Buddhism is not all about monasteries neither did it started with monasteries.But monasteries were required in later period due to specific social conditions.In the same way, Hinduism is not caste nor Hinduism started with caste.But in the later periods, caste was introduced as a specific measure to cater to the needs of the specific social conditions of that time.Caste is purely a social issue, not a religious issue.
Sure dude, you can choose to interpret that line differently than me, but that doesn't escape the fact that its largely BECAUSE OF THE CASTE SYSTEM THAT HINDUISM EXISTS TODAY!! (as your article has clearly shown) So why isn't there a connection??
Yes they do.But even here its impact is still less that Hakou which is applicable to every chinese(100%) irrespective of their religion !
I think you'll find that the Caste system is so entrenched in the Indian psyche that it permeate to other religions too within India.
http://www.indianchild.com/caste_system_in_india.htm excerpt Castes system in India are primarily associated with Hinduism but also exist among other Indian religious groups. Muslims sometimes expressly deny that they have castes--they state that all Muslims are brothers under God--but observation of Muslim life in various parts of India reveals the existence of castelike groups and clear concern with social hierarchy. Among Indian Christians, too, differences in caste are acknowledged and maintained.
You may doubt it but the dalit(dalit is a anglicised word, not a Indian one.The correct word is Harijan) or whoever have a freedom to do whatever in the entire country unlike the restrictions the chinese face when they move outside the Hakou registration area.As with any other country and system, discriminations do occur in India,but they are limited in nature.Not to speak that caste is not supported by the Indian govt while Hakou is officially sanctioned by the chinese govt.
Are you saying that Dalits have the freedom to do whatever they like in India without being violently beaten up or killed?? Prove it!! give me some credible neutral sources!!
FREEDOM DOES NOT INCLUDE VIOLENCE!!
Caste system in its real meaning is nothing but a labour union or a political party catering to its constituents which is applicable in any century.
So the Caste system is a labour union or a political party?? LOL what a freaking joke! According to whom?? You?? LOL
Dude don't make up rubbish just to suit your point of view!! lol, show me SOME EVIDENCE?? and from sources that are BELIEVABLE!!
Even that is inaccurate since there is no 'bonding' as such between caste system and Hinduism.Hinduism will survive even without caste system.
Dude when a entity owes its survival to another entity! I think its safe to say there is a bond!
And if Hinduism has NO bond with Caste system, then why do thousands of lower castes Hindus regularly convert to other religions in an effort to escape the Caste system??
Firstly serfdom is not caste.Serfdom is pure slavery while caste is not. But because of the codification of caste during the islamic middle ages and christian colonial rule, a part of caste degenerated and this degenerated part became prominantly displayed to outsiders who mistook that caste is nothing but serfdom.And since caste (like religion) is not bad in its real meaning, there is no reason to not to accept it in present times
I think the expression we used was "caste like" anyway yes Serfdom is not identical to caste but they share some crucial traits eg. inequality, discrimination, persecution etc
And dude you still didn't answer my question, so if other countries have practised a form of caste like systems in their PAST HISTORY does that excuse or make the Indian Caste system acceptable today??
I am not being ridiculous dude, it was you who are behaving like an ignorant.One dont have to say something directly to convey things. The very fact the western media repeatedly uses poverty and Indian space programme in the same report implies that they want to convey that India should not be 'wasting'(in their words) funds for space programme.
So lets say for the sake of argument that a western news report wrote about the Indian space program and included a paragraph about the rising incidents of rapes in India! will you automatically link the two together and accuse the western media of saying that the Indian space program were run by RAPISTS?? LOL
Dude why are you so paranoid?? LOL
Dude, it was you who was whining that the western media says bad things about china compared to India.It was as a response to that wrong allegation, that i said that even India has a its fair share of bad coverage from western media. And as a proff of it, i took the western coverage of India's space programme.Now you are acting dumb ? LOL
Dude, POLITICALLY speaking China takes more flak from the west (because it is communist) and that is a fact! and also because India is a "DEMOCRACY"! (I mean why would the west criticise it's own much touted system which it wants the world to adopt??)
Now I never said that India in general never gets criticisms from the west (show me where I have said this?) I have already posted a few western news articles criticising India's poverty and child mortality rates!!
Ok. I should not have generalised.But you also did generalised with respect to your allegation that the west talks all bad about china !
Dude show me where I generalised that the western media wrote bad things about China IN EVERY REPORT?? LOL
And when did i say that equals leading technologically ? LOL
Dude heres what you said originally:
"India is leading in private enterprise , Information technology and pharmacuticals and bio technology"
So aren't we talking about leading technologically??
What is your point dude ? I said that there are countries in the world which are socially advanced but not necessarily economically advanced.I still did not find the specifc social or economic reason for that.I am still unable to understand your obsession with this thing.If you are implying that India wont be able to close the social indicators gap with china unless its also improves economically, then that is debatable since there are countries that are socially advanced but not economically advanced than other countries.
Dude, you emphatically said in the title of this thread "India is closing gap with China"
So shouldn't "closing the gap with China" also mean health and social parameters?? I'm certain it will be one of the very important targets for India right?? SO HOW COME YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER??
Waiting for me ? I am Honoured ! LOL
So you should be!! my time is precious! LOL
This message has been edited by tron. on Oct 27, 2008 4:17 AM
\\Yeah your Indian govt is doing a really good job! LOL\\
Do you have reading problems by any chance ? When did i said the Indian govt is doing a really good job ? I said that the Indian govt can do much better than what it is doing just like the chinese govt can do much better than what it is doing !
\\OK, show me proof that the Hukou system is a PROPER CASTE SYSTEM?? (from credible sources please)\\
There is nothing called 'proper' or 'improper' caste system dude ! If the definition of caste system according to you is discrimination by birth , then Hakou presicely practises it.Caste like systems(Hakou for example) are prevelant in every soceity including china.
\\Regarding the Yi people, you emphatically claimed previously that the Yi people were still currently practising Caste!!\\
Again as i said in my previous post, i havent read anywhere that the yi people 'stoped' caste system recently and do not practise it anymore which basically means that they still practise caste system.You seems to think that only yi people practise caste system in china.What is communism which is nothing but a rigid division of soceity into endogamous groups (which is what a caste system is ) !
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\\So the general Chinese population support the Hukou system?? Even the rural Chinese people who make up the majority of the population?? got proof??\\
Well if you think that the majority of Hindus(who happen to come from lower castes) support caste system, then what is wrong with my thinking that majority of chinese(even from rural population) support Hakou system ?
\\Also are you saying the Hukou isn't just law passed by the govt?? And the CCP hasn't the authority to abolished it??\\
Having an authority to do something and actually doing it is two different things.The Indian Govt 'actually' abolished caste system.The chinese govt has the authority to abolish Hakou system but did not do it ! They are two different things !
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\\The Caste system is a LABOUR UNION?? LOL, Show me some credible sources (not Indian) who will give it that definition?? LOL \\
As i said in my previous post, non-Indians(for the most part) have zilch understanding about the caste system in its entirety just like they will have minimum understanding about Hakou system in its entirety.Caste like any other system has its good,bad and ugly sides. The western authors have only highlighted bad and ugly while completely ignoring the good part which i mentioned in my previous posts.Since most of the worlds (including chinese) 'understanding' of India comes only through western authors,their vision of caste is also distorted like their western authors !
\\Caste systems are present in every country nowadays?? got proof to support this ridiculous assertion of yours?? eg. Show me some democratic countries who practise the same caste system as you Indians??\\
Just because you are ignorant about caste and its meaning does not make it 'ridiculous assertion'. What is the Guild system in europe and US, if not a caste system in its real sense(as i outlined in my previous posts). On the negative side side of the spectrum,in Japan, their is still discrimination based on caste(as understood by you) against the burakumins even now.In the same way, there is still discrimination against the baekjeongs in Korea.
\\Dude the Hukou system was created in the 1950s and the suppression of "human rights" has primary become a issue because the CCP govt is communist!! both have been in existence for approx 5 decades only...\\
Are you saying that the chinese are having caste like system only since 60 years and before that everything is fine and dandy ?
This is what i was refferring to.The chinese very convienently will blame all their ills on the CCP hoping that it will somehow insulate them from the blame ! Arent the CCP chinese ? Dont they come from chinese soceity ?
\\while the Caste system has existed in India for over THREE THOUSAND YEARS!!\\
The caste system which existed in anceint times was not discriminatory at all.It acted as i stated above more like a labour union.It was also not rigid.The caste system in anceint times more humane than the Hakou in recent times.
\\Didn't you say that the Caste system has nothing to do with religion?? So why are you suddenly trying to link the two together?? lol\\
I was answering you in your own words so that you will get a better understanding of it. I was telling you that even your argument that Hinduism is wrong becaue of caste is flawed because many religions and ideologies have even more horrible record than Hinduism in terms of voilence or discrimination.
\\Yes there were crimes committed in the name of religion, but the difference is in most countries people have the FREEDOM OF CHOICE regarding religion!! They can choose which religion they want to practise! or choose NOT TO PRACTISE ANY RELIGION AT ALL!\\
In most muslim countries you dont have freedom of choice regarding religion.In most communist countries you dont have freedon of choice regarding ideology.Both are rigid.
\\whilst the Caste system is AUTOMATIC it is forced a upon the Dalits and lower castes!! I mean do the Dalits and lower caste Indians have the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE as to whether they want to be a part of the Indian Caste system??\\
Absolutely they do ! Caste system is nothing but division of soceity into professions.Just like there is no rule that a doctors's caste son should become a doctor, similarly there is no rule that a person born in a washerman's caste should work as a washerman.
\\And the fact that you actually support the Caste system says alot about you! LOL (btw I don't support the Hukou system).\\
The fact that i support caste system or not or you support Hukou system or not has nothing to do with whether caste or Hakou is good or bad which is what we are debating.They should be judged by their own meanings and not whether one supports them or not !
\\The Chinese has only practised Communism for approx 60 years and Communism was probably already "corrupted" when it reached China, and the Chinese people may have embraced Communism initially because of the extreme conditions at that time in our history, but thereafter the centralised authoritarian CCP rule has denied the general Chinese populace the freedom to choose another system!! While in contrast Indians has practised Caste at the very beginning when it was "pure" (as you claimed) yet when it became "corrupted" they continue to practice it even though it turned into a nightmare for millions of the lower castes Indians for thousands of years!! So why is that??\\
ight\\
The commmunism of Marx was not corrupted.It was Mao who corrupted it to suit his own needs.He intentionally imitated lenin because it appeared to his instincts.Mao from the very beginning right from his participation in Xinhai uprising days was an anarchist.But he always saw revolution as an end in itself.It was the gureilla aspect of commmunism which attracted him, not its intellectual aspects.To imagine that communism was corrupted when it came to china and mao just took it as it is not correct.Its was lenin's topling of the tsar nicholas regime that attracted mao towards communism as it resonated with his own participation against the qing regime.The feudalism prevelant in china also played a major part in the success of communism. In Indian context, caste as i have explained is not a bad thing in its real sense.Even when it got corrupted in later stages,it still was working as a positive tool for most people .It was in a minority of cases that this degeneration showed results and precisely that the negative results of caste were limited that people in general never had the incentive to leave it in its totality.
\\At the end of the day, regarding Communism the Chinese presently don't have the FREEDOM to choose another system, China isn't a democracy!! but in contrast INDIA IS A DEMOCRACY RIGHT?? INDIANS ENJOY FREEDOM RIGHT?? (or at least thats what you Indians continue to brag to us about). SO WHY DO INDIANS CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO PRACTISE CASTE IN ITS PRESENT FORM?? \\
Contrary to the 'Chinese people victim of CCP' stories i hear everyday, there is a genuine support for CCP and its policies in china.Even if democracy does come to china, the chances are the chinese will elect persons with strong authoritarian tendencies than a genine democract.Its something similar like the islamic world.Even if genuine democracy returns to muslim countries, the chances are that they will elect islamists to power rather than reformists.Certain cultures tend to behave in a certain way.The chinese never displayed any democratic tendencies in their entire history.The muslims never displayed secular tendencies in their entire history.To answer your question, Indians continue to practise caste because as i have expalined above, even with all the negative propoganda about caste, the caste system is acting in a more positive way(by helping the respective communities as a labour union) than in
a negative way.
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\\Dude the Mongol dynasty happened CENTURIES AGO!! LOL And I simply stated that Hinduism owes its very survival to the Caste system isn't that the truth?? and doesn't that prove there is a bond??\\
Hinduism used caste for its self defence during the persecution by muslims and christians.Caste is one of the tool used by Hinduism to protect itself from the barbarians,but not the only tool.If that equals 'bond' then islam used terrorism to spread in arabia and christianity used deception and genocide to spread in roman empire and beyond.Does that mean there is a bond between islam and terrorism and genocide and christianity ?. The chinese since anceint times routinely used slavery as a form of labour.Does that mean that there is a bond between confucianism and slavery ?
\\Sure dude, you can choose to interpret that line differently than me, but that doesn't escape the fact that its largely BECAUSE OF THE CASTE SYSTEM THAT HINDUISM EXISTS TODAY!! (as your article has clearly shown) So why isn't there a connection??\\
As i said in my previous post, caste is only one factor in Hinduism's survival during the middle ages.But its not the only factor or even the biggest factor.'Connection' does not necessarily indicate anything because all cultures in all countries had 'connections' with one thing or other which other cultures(in thier own understanding) considers as negative which may not be true !
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\\I think you'll find that the Caste system is so entrenched in the Indian psyche that it permeate to other religions too within India.\\
That only proves that caste has nothing to do with (Hindu) religion per se but more to do with the social conditions irrespective of religion.
\\Are you saying that Dalits have the freedom to do whatever they like in India without being violently beaten up or killed?? Prove it!! give me some credible neutral sources!!
FREEDOM DOES NOT INCLUDE VIOLENCE!!\\
What kind of 'nutral sources' you want ? The framer of Indian constitution is a Dalit.India's president until few years back was a Dalit.Its chief justice is a Dalit.I dont recall anyone beating them when they wanted to do what they want ! Half knowledge only confuses more than answering questions. Again as i told in my previous post, dalit is not the corrrect word.The right word is Harijan.
\\So the Caste system is a labour union or a political party?? LOL what a freaking joke! According to whom?? You?? LOL Dude don't make up rubbish just to suit your point of view!! lol, show me SOME EVIDENCE?? and from sources that are BELIEVABLE!!\\
Dude you are a Joke ! Inspite of all the discussions about caste till now, you are still asking me about 'evidence' ! LOL. And when i did tried to give you a small evidence, all you came up was to try to put holes in them and intepret exactly in the opposite way the article wanted to potray ! LOL
\\Dude when a entity owes its survival to another entity! I think its safe to say there is a bond!\\
A 'bond' is a very generic term.There is a bond between me and my rusted rifle in the sense that it protected me in my past.Does that mean to say i equals the rifle ! Even if we use your own distorted logic, confucianism has more relation to slavery than Hinduism has with caste !
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\\And if Hinduism has NO bond with Caste system, then why do thousands of lower castes Hindus regularly convert to other religions in an effort to escape the Caste system??\\
If 'thousands' of lower castes 'regularly' convert to other religions, Hinduism wouldnt be the predominant religion of India !
\\I think the expression we used was "caste like" anyway yes Serfdom is not identical to caste but they share some crucial traits eg. I think the expression we used was "caste like" anyway yes Serfdom is not identical to caste but they share some crucial traits eg. inequality, discrimination, persecution etc \\
Inequality, discrimination and persecution etc are also shared by Hakou system dude !
\\And dude you still didn't answer my question, so if other countries have practised a form of caste like systems in their PAST HISTORY does that excuse or make the Indian Caste system acceptable today?? \\
The acceptence or non-acceptence of caste system in India has nothing to do with other systems in past or present.I gave those examples so that you can understand better.Every system has its own qualities which has to be seen in its own right.Caste system is acceptable in India because caste system inspite of all the negative propoganda is not bad in reality.That is the reason its still there in India !
\\So lets say for the sake of argument that a western news report wrote about the Indian space program and included a paragraph about the rising incidents of rapes in India! will you automatically link the two together and accuse the western media of saying that the Indian space program were run by RAPISTS?? LOL\\
Why would a western news report writes about rapes in India in a essentially a Indian space programme article if not for linking those two ? Can you give any other expalnations ! LOL
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------\\Dude why are you so paranoid?? LOL\\
Its not paroniod .Its observation something which looks like is beyond your understanding !
\\Dude, POLITICALLY speaking China takes more flak from the west (because it is communist) and that is a fact! and also because India is a "DEMOCRACY"! (I mean why would the west criticise it's own much touted system which it wants the world to adopt??)\\
Dude, you dont have to be a democrat to critisise china's flawed policies.Even the fellow communist soviet union critised china for much of the past ! LOL
\\Now I never said that India in general never gets criticisms from the west (show me where I have said this?) I have already posted a few western news articles criticising India's poverty and child mortality rates!!\\
\\Dude, you emphatically said in the title of this thread "India is closing gap with China"
So shouldn't "closing the gap with China" also mean health and social parameters?? I'm certain it will be one of the very important targets for India right?? SO HOW COME YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER??\\
Dude, If you cared to read, the title of the thread was directly taken from the article i posted. LOL And by the way, India is also closing gap in both health and social parameters ! LOL
Do you have reading problems by any chance ? When did i said the Indian govt is doing a really good job ? I said that the Indian govt can do much better than what it is doing just like the chinese govt can do much better than what it is doing !
So Indian govt isn't doing a good job then??
BTW China isn't the country who has worst malnutrition than Africa!
There is nothing called 'proper' or 'improper' caste system dude ! If the definition of caste system according to you is discrimination by birth , then Hakou presicely practises it.Caste like systems(Hakou for example) are prevelant in every soceity including china.
Dude you said Hukou system = Caste system
Now is your chance to prove it!
So stop talking rubbish and GIVE ME PROOF that the Hukou system is a proper bona fide Caste system??
Again as i said in my previous post, i havent read anywhere that the yi people 'stoped' caste system recently and do not practise it anymore which basically means that they still practise caste system.You seems to think that only yi people practise caste system in china.What is communism which is nothing but a rigid division of soceity into endogamous groups (which is what a caste system is ) !
Again stop talking rubbish
You made the claim that the Yi people are still practising caste currently so the onus is on you to provide the EVIDENCE!
Well if you think that the majority of Hindus(who happen to come from lower castes) support caste system, then what is wrong with my thinking that majority of chinese(even from rural population) support Hakou system ?
Dude the majority of the Indian population reside in rural areas where the Caste system DOMINATE THEIR LIVES as this article from a academic source states:
http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/georgesept62001.html excerpt "But these moves only benefit about 3 percent of the nearly 240 million Dalits. In the cities, caste distinctions become blurred. The anonymity of urban life - taking buses and working in offices and factories - helps push caste to the background. But in rural India, where nearly 75 percent of Indians live, caste dominates where people live, who they can marry and the work they do."
If approx 75 percent of the Indian population living in rural India practise caste to the extent that it dominate their lives, then it clearly shows there is a massive majority support for it right? because the Caste system is SOCIETY BASED right??
Now its your turn, SHOW ME PROOF THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE RURAL CHINESE SUPPORT THE HUKOU SYSTEM??
Having an authority to do something and actually doing it is two different things.The Indian Govt 'actually' abolished caste system.The chinese govt has the authority to abolish Hakou system but did not do it ! They are two different things !
It shows if push comes to shove only one government has the true ability to get rid of its discriminatory system and it also shows the other Indian system is immune and resistant to political persuasion and pressure.
As i said in my previous post, non-Indians(for the most part) have zilch understanding about the caste system in its entirety just like they will have minimum understanding about Hakou system in its entirety.Caste like any other system has its good,bad and ugly sides. The western authors have only highlighted bad and ugly while completely ignoring the good part which i mentioned in my previous posts.Since most of the worlds (including chinese) 'understanding' of India comes only through western authors,their vision of caste is also distorted like their western authors !
Enough BS
Show me proof that the CASTE SYSTEM IS A LABOUR UNION?? LOL (credible sources, not indian)
Just because you are ignorant about caste and its meaning does not make it 'ridiculous assertion'. What is the Guild system in europe and US, if not a caste system in its real sense(as i outlined in my previous posts). On the negative side side of the spectrum,in Japan, their is still discrimination based on caste(as understood by you) against the burakumins even now.In the same way, there is still discrimination against the baekjeongs in Korea
Firstly the guild system isn't comparable to Caste! LOL
Secondly regarding the beekjeongs in Korea, according to this Wikipedia article it has virtually been eradicated from Korean society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste excerpt "With Gabo reform of 1896, the caste system of Korea was officially abolished. However, the Yangban families carried on traditional education and formal mannerisms into the 20th century. With the democratization of 1990s in South Korea, remnant of such mannerisms and classism is now heavily frowned upon in the South Korean society, replaced by the myth of egalitarianism. However, with rampant capitalism, a new aristocracy is slowly developing, caused by a major gap in income among the people of Korea, with the resulting differences in education and mannerism."
Thirdly yes, I agree that the discrimination against Burakumins in Japan has similarities with the Caste system in India, however the difference is its on a much smaller scale eg. Theres approx over one million burakumins in Japan (approx one percent of the population) while theres approx 165 million Dalits in India (approx 16 percent of the population).
Are you saying that the chinese are having caste like system only since 60 years and before that everything is fine and dandy ?
This is what i was refferring to.The chinese very convienently will blame all their ills on the CCP hoping that it will somehow insulate them from the blame ! Arent the CCP chinese ? Dont they come from chinese soceity ?
Nope, everything wasn't fine and dandy, like many countries China also had many historic failings.
So using your logic I can give you a similar analogy, Aren't murders human?? Don't murders come from human society?? SO DOES ALL HUMANS = MURDERS??
The caste system which existed in anceint times was not discriminatory at all.It acted as i stated above more like a labour union.It was also not rigid.The caste system in anceint times more humane than the Hakou in recent times.
Ok, tell me when did the Caste system became discriminatory then??
In most muslim countries you dont have freedom of choice regarding religion.In most communist countries you dont have freedon of choice regarding ideology.Both are rigid.
Dude, but India isn't a muslim or a communist country?? its a democracy! and in most democracies I can think of, the people have FREEDOM OF CHOICE regarding religion!! so my question to you again is:
If India is a democracy and Indians are suppose to enjoy freedom then WHY DO INDIANS CHOOSE TO CONTINUE TO PRACTISE CASTE IN ITS PRESENT FORM??
Absolutely they do ! Caste system is nothing but division of soceity into professions.Just like there is no rule that a doctors's caste son should become a doctor, similarly there is no rule that a person born in a washerman's caste should work as a washerman.
Yes in theory! but is that the case in practise?
Got proof to show that Dalits don't have to comply to the Caste system in rural India?? (No Indian sources please)
The fact that i support caste system or not or you support Hukou system or not has nothing to do with whether caste or Hakou is good or bad which is what we are debating.They should be judged by their own meanings and not whether one supports them or not !
The fact that you support a discriminatory system while I don't, do you not think that has some signifcance?? LOL
The commmunism of Marx was not corrupted.It was Mao who corrupted it to suit his own needs.He intentionally imitated lenin because it appeared to his instincts.Mao from the very beginning right from his participation in Xinhai uprising days was an anarchist.But he always saw revolution as an end in itself.It was the gureilla aspect of commmunism which attracted him, not its intellectual aspects.To imagine that communism was corrupted when it came to china and mao just took it as it is not correct.Its was lenin's topling of the tsar nicholas regime that attracted mao towards communism as it resonated with his own participation against the qing regime.The feudalism prevelant in china also played a major part in the success of communism. In Indian context, caste as i have explained is not a bad thing in its real sense.Even when it got corrupted in later stages,it still was working as a positive tool for most people .It was in a minority of cases that this degeneration showed results and precisely that the negative results of caste were limited that people in general never had the incentive to leave it in its totality.
Did Lenin practised the same "pure" concept of Communism preached by Marx?? the same one which Mao adopted from Lenin?
At the end of the day it doesn't matter if Mao was responsible for the corruption of Communism in China, since the ordinary Chinese peasants only espoused communism in an extreme period of our history, and the CCP has ruled China ever since with a iron fist and refuses to let the Chinese populace the freedom to choose another system. However this isn't the case with India right? I mean Indians never cease to tell us that they are a DEMOCRACY and they have FREEDOM, so why do Indians continue to choose to practise a cruel and discriminatory form of caste today??
Hinduism used caste for its self defence during the persecution by muslims and christians.Caste is one of the tool used by Hinduism to protect itself from the barbarians,but not the only tool.If that equals 'bond' then islam used terrorism to spread in arabia and christianity used deception and genocide to spread in roman empire and beyond.Does that mean there is a bond between islam and terrorism and genocide and christianity ?. The chinese since anceint times routinely used slavery as a form of labour.Does that mean that there is a bond between confucianism and slavery ?
Dude I've already agreed with you previously that there were crimes committed in the name of religion! and religions like Christianty and Islam were propagated by the sword and bloodshed! theres no hiding that fact! Now to your question, does that mean these religions have a historic "connection" with violence and bloodshed?? YES ABSOLUTELY!
And if you can provide proof that Confucianism owes its very survival to slavery (like hinduism to Caste) I'll be happy to admit that there is a connection or bond!
Now are you willing to admit that there is a bond between Hinduism and Caste??
As i said in my previous post, caste is only one factor in Hinduism's survival during the middle ages.But its not the only factor or even the biggest factor.'Connection' does not necessarily indicate anything because all cultures in all countries had 'connections' with one thing or other which other cultures(in thier own understanding) considers as negative which may not be true !
You said "caste is only one factor in Hinduism's survival"
So you admit there is a connection then? thankyou for agreeing lol
That only proves that caste has nothing to do with (Hindu) religion per se but more to do with the social conditions irrespective of religion.
Yes, Caste system is society based (which I have already repeatedly said) and Hinduism has a connection with Caste.
What kind of 'nutral sources' you want ? The framer of Indian constitution is a Dalit.India's president until few years back was a Dalit.Its chief justice is a Dalit.I dont recall anyone beating them when they wanted to do what they want ! Half knowledge only confuses more than answering questions. Again as i told in my previous post, dalit is not the corrrect word.The right word is Harijan.
Dude whats needed in India is a seismic shift in social attitude and behaviour not just a few cases of tolerance. I think this article explains it:
http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/docs/georgesept62001.html excerpt "Dalits once were left out of India's power structure. But in the past three decades, they have gained a political voice and a share of prominent public office. India's president is a Dalit. So is the speaker of the lower house of Parliament. ``But that has no bearing on the situation of the Dalits. This is like saying Indira Gandhi was India's prime minister. Did that change the plight of Indian women?'' asked Kumari, the women's rights activist.
While the media debate rages, the Dalits in Trilokpuri shrug at the notion of change. ``My mother did scavenging. I am a scavenger. I don't see my children doing anything else, whatever the politicians may say,'' said Birum. ``This is our caste."
Dude you are a Joke ! Inspite of all the discussions about caste till now, you are still asking me about 'evidence' ! LOL. And when i did tried to give you a small evidence, all you came up was to try to put holes in them and intepret exactly in the opposite way the article wanted to potray ! LOL
LOL thats because none of your "evidence" is convincing!
Now stop your nonsense and substantiate your claim that the Caste system is a labour union or political party!!
A 'bond' is a very generic term.There is a bond between me and my rusted rifle in the sense that it protected me in my past.Does that mean to say i equals the rifle ! Even if we use your own distorted logic, confucianism has more relation to slavery than Hinduism has with caste !
Dude, a rusted rifle is a mechanical device not an ideology or philosophy!! LOL
think before you speak (or type) LOL
If 'thousands' of lower castes 'regularly' convert to other religions, Hinduism wouldnt be the predominant religion of India !
Give it time dude lol, give it time!
Inequality, discrimination and persecution etc are also shared by Hakou system dude !
Yes but the Hukou is simply legislation, unlike Caste which has massive grass root support at the social level.
The acceptence or non-acceptence of caste system in India has nothing to do with other systems in past or present.I gave those examples so that you can understand better.Every system has its own qualities which has to be seen in its own right.Caste system is acceptable in India because caste system inspite of all the negative propoganda is not bad in reality.That is the reason its still there in India !
Caste system is acceptable in India?? lol, Its not bad in reality?? lol
Dude heres what your Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said about caste:
http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2007-02/2007-02-26-voa44.cfm?CFID=160794164&CFTOKEN=36208305 excerpt "In December, Manmohan Singh became the first sitting Indian prime minister to openly acknowledge the parallel between the practice of "untouchability" and the crime of apartheid. Singh described "untouchability" as a "blot on humanity" adding that "even after 60 years of constitutional and legal protection and state support, there is still social discrimination against Dalits in many parts of our country."
So whose right? you or your Indian PM?? LOL
Why would a western news report writes about rapes in India in a essentially a Indian space programme article if not for linking those two ? Can you give any other expalnations ! LOL
Of course I was speaking hypothetically regarding the rapes.
Dude the truth is when you try to link two separate issues together in a report based on your personal perception that is called SPECULATION NOT FACT!
Its not paroniod .Its observation something which looks like is beyond your understanding !
Take it easy dude, dont get flustered, all that spicy curry can give you heartburn! LOL
Dude, you dont have to be a democrat to critisise china's flawed policies.Even the fellow communist soviet union critised china for much of the past ! LOL
Yeah, just the West criticises India for it's Caste system and appalling poverty and child mortality rates right?? lol
Trying to scratch the bottom of the barrel ? LOL
Dude the proper expression is "scrape the bottom of the barrel"
And you also didn't answer my question, show me where did I generalised that the western media wrote bad things about China IN EVERY REPORT?? LOL
Even technologically speaking, India leads in IT while it is catching up in Bt ! no ?
Haha talk about backtracking! So its "CATCHING UP" instead of "LEADING" in bio tech now eh?? (which you previously boasted lol)
You sure changed your tune quickly dude lol
Dude, If you cared to read, the title of the thread was directly taken from the article i posted.
Well the fact that you decided to put it in the title means you agree with it right??
And by the way, India is also closing gap in both health and social parameters ! LOL
good then perhaps you can finally answer my question then:
Can you explain to me under what circumstances will ordinary Indians enjoy better social and health parameters than the ordinary Chinese citizens if economic performance is not a main factor??
So is everyone's ! LOL
It took you 17 days to reply?? WTF LOL
This message has been edited by tron. on Nov 15, 2008 4:03 AM
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