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Stalin's Genocides

May 21 2012 at 6:21 PM

Provost  (Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Stalin's Genocides, by Norman M. Naimark
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Princeton: Princeton University Press, 2011. Pp. ix, 163. Notes, index. $16.95 paper. ISBN: 0691152381.

A volume in Princetons series Human Rights and Crimes against Humanity, Stalins Genocides takes a look at the Soviet dictators use of mass slaughter in pursuit of total mastery of the USSR, the Soviet Bloc, and the world communist movement, one which puts the dictator squarely at the center of events.

As such, this is a useful overview of one of the most horrific bloodlettings in all history. But theres more, for Prof. Naimark (Stanford), author of The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949 and Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe, among others, uses Stalins crimes as a lens with which to examine the nature and, indeed, the very meaning, of the idea of genocide. This has more than just historical significance, since mass slaughter is still with us. Thus, for example, Naimark notes that while paper definitions of genocide tend to deal with the killing of ethnic, cultural, or religious groups, a great deal of mass killing has been targeted at political or social groups, a matter that has implications for policy makers, jurists, and historians.

This makes Stalins Genocides of importance not just for students of modern Russian and European history, but also for those interested in very contemporary questions of international law and human rights.
---///---

Reviewer: A. A. Nofi, Review Editor

http://www.strategypage.com/bookreviews/697.asp


[linked image]"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.

It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.

Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."

John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
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Kallimachos
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Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 28 2012, 3:53 PM 

To me personally Stalin was much worse than Hitler. Hitler's killing frenzy was mostly driven by ideology (ie. Jews), but aside from the Jews the German occupation forces did not practice wholesale slaughter of general populations as the Soviets under Stalin did. If you read the Battle of Berlin by Anthony Beevor you can see the barbarity, savagery, and murderous behavior of Soviet forces towards general populations.

I would venture to say that while Hitler was responsible for the deaths of millions, Stalin probably was responsible for the death of many more.





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WAFFer
(Login Indigo112)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 28 2012, 8:44 PM 

Tell that to 2 + millions of Poles and well over 10 millions of Soviet civs killed and that's just for starters. I suggest you read up on wehrmacht war crimes on eastern and the western front before spouting further ********.




And thank the Soviets they didn't completly go eye for an eye on your ***'s. Which something BTW Anthony Beevor himself mentions in that book.


    
This message has been edited by Indigo112 on May 28, 2012 8:52 PM


 
 

WAFFer
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Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 4:28 PM 

Why don't you ask Poles how they feel about the Soviets. Polish officers were murdered wholesale. Polish national politicians were imprisoned and tortured. Soviet troops were known to have carried out wholesale rape of female populations in Poland, Hungary, Germany etc.

I will not even talk about the tens of millions Stalin killed in the Soviet Union via the Gulag slave labor/death camps or his special NKVD squads which were ordered to kill any Soviet soldier which did not advance.

Stalin was No. 1 criminal of WWII hands down.





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Provost
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WAFFer.

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 4:35 PM 

Well, it is hard to tell which of these two evil dictators was the worse. If you're going on just those killed on each of their orders it might be a toss up if you blame Hitler for World War II. But if you don't, Stalin has the edge on numbers.


[linked image]"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.

It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.

Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."

John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
[linked image]

 
 
WAFFer
(Login Indigo112)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 5:42 PM 

Both were monsters I think we both will agree with that provost/mike ? . But come now 6 million Jews, 15 million soviets civilians and 12+ million soviet soldiers, 2-4 million Poles, 1 + million Yugoslavs. already put Hitler well over Stalin in terms of numbers. Numbers that would haven been BTW overshadowd had Hitler and Co won. See Generalplan Ost.

Add to that well over a million of western europeans. and lets not forget thousand + Americans/ Canadian/Australian soldiers who fought and died against the Germans.


Edit




"Why don't you ask Poles how they feel about the Soviets. Polish officers were murdered wholesale. Polish national politicians were imprisoned and tortured. Soviet troops were known to have carried out wholesale rape of female populations in Poland, Hungary, Germany etc."


Pretty sure they the poles would chose the soviets that didn't kill 2+ millions of them or were planning to Extermination them. And the wholesale rape of female populations in poland ..those were the germans my friend, though Soviets did their share of raping also.


"I will not even talk about the tens of millions Stalin killed in the Soviet Union via the Gulag slave labor/death camps"

Except tens of millions didn't die in the gulag. Only 1.6 million died with some historians doubling the number.

"or his special NKVD squads which were ordered to kill any Soviet soldier which did not advance."

Except that's not true at all. Unless you were of course in a penal bettalion. And at that it was rare.


    
This message has been edited by Indigo112 on May 29, 2012 5:59 PM


 
 

Kallimachos
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Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 6:01 PM 

I am not counting soldiers lost in battle. For sheet brutality, savagery, and wholesale rape the Soviets were No. 1. You forget that the Nazis never saw the Slavs are humans, but as racially inferior populations to be moved or liquidated. So for ideological reasons they applied brutality, but in Greece and in Western Europe aside from civilian reprisals in case of guerrilla activity the Germans left the population alone and were very disciplined compared to the mob which comprised Soviet forces.

In Crete, Greece I can tell you of two instances where after the Battle of Crete German soldiers were punished for not following orders.

1. My grandmother told me of a case of a Greek girl which was raped in 1942 in Crete by 2 German soldiers in Chania. Her father went and filed a complaint at the local German HQs. The commanding German officer was so offended that his troops had disobeyed orders to not harm the local population that he made an entire brigade stand at attention in a yard while he told the girl to point out the two German soldiers which had raped her. One by one they went down the line and she eventually pointed both out. The commanding officer pulled them out and executed them both on the spot in front of the others.


2. My father was a young kid during WWII and he once saw a German soldier jump someone's fence and steal a chicken. The villager went to the local officer and complained. My father then went to the officer and told him that he saw which German soldier had stolen the chicken. The soldier was brought before the officer and the German officer proceeded to scream and beat the soldier. A couple days later the same soldier saw my father and beat him with a bamboo stick for telling on him. Then my grandfather went to the local German HQs and filed a complaint. The same German soldier was brought forth to the commanding officer and beaten a 2nd time even more severely.

To the Germans discipline was everything and soldiers could not rape, kill, or hurt the local population unless of course ideology permitted it or there were orders given from above to do so. In Slavic countries the Germans might have committed many crimes, but in Europe it was a different story.








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WAFFer
(Login Indigo112)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 6:32 PM 

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html


Zotlöterer: "I shot a Frenchman from behind. He was riding a bicycle."

Weber: "At close range?"

Zotlöterer: "Yes."

Heuser: "Did he want to take you prisoner?"

Zotlöterer: "Nonsense. I wanted the bicycle."


Yes,Sir! Ze famouse German discipline! If only we could all be so well disciplined!

And yes Ze germans such great guest! I'm sure people for example from Distomo would agree with you. Had the Germans not slaughtered them ....that all before raping some of the women infront of the children and husbands. And i'm sure the entire village of Kalavryta would thank the Germans for killiing every single greek men and teen in that village.


"For sheet brutality, savagery, and wholesale rape the Soviets were No. 1."


Like I said read up on the wehrmachts crimes especially in eastern europe.


    
This message has been edited by Indigo112 on May 29, 2012 6:44 PM


 
 

Kallimachos
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Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 6:47 PM 

Distomo was in response to killing of German soldiers by guerrillas. The same applied to other places where executions of civilians took place. However, for every 1 incident of German brutality you give me, I can give you 10 instances of Soviet barbarity.

The Soviets unleached their brutality on the populations they supposedly were "liberating" like Hungary or Poland.





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Kallimachos
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Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 6:47 PM 

Distomo was in response to killing of German soldiers by guerrillas. The same applied to other places where executions of civilians took place. However, for every 1 incident of German brutality you give me, I can give you 10 instances of Soviet barbarity.

The Soviets unleached their brutality on the populations they supposedly were "liberating" like Hungary or Poland.





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Provost
(Login MPOne)
WAFFer.

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 7:51 PM 

Both were monsters I think we both will agree with that provost/mike ? .

Yes, we can agree on that, Indigo.

But come now 6 million Jews, 15 million soviets civilians and 12+ million soviet soldiers, 2-4 million Poles, 1 + million Yugoslavs. already put Hitler well over Stalin in terms of numbers. Numbers that would haven been BTW overshadowd had Hitler and Co won. See Generalplan Ost. Add to that well over a million of western europeans. and lets not forget thousand + Americans/ Canadian/Australian soldiers who fought and died against the Germans.


I suppose, Indigo, that's the reason the Ukrainians welcomed German troops as liberators. I mean, "Stephen Wheatcroft and R. W. Davies have calculated that the total number of excess deaths from 1927 to 1938 may have amounted to some ten million persons, 8.5 million killed between 1927 and 1936 and about 1 to 1.5 million between 1937 and 1938."http://www.enotes.com/stalin-joseph-reference/stalin-joseph

If you blame Hitler for World War II, you could be right. One wonders though had Stalin not given the Germans bases in Russia to train and develop their military, in violation of German obligations under Versailles, whether Hitler would have been able to accomplish the Anschluss, the annexation of Czechoslovakia or any of the other prerequisites to Poland. Or, whether Hitler and Stalin had not reached the agreement to divide Poland or any of a myriad of other actions which Stalin took to bring about the war. Based upon that, I'm not sure one can attribute all of the World War II casualties solely to Hitler.




[linked image]"The chief aim of all government is to preserve the freedom of the citizen. His control over his person, his property, his movements, his business, his desires should be restrained only so far as the public welfare imperatively demands. The world is in more danger of being governed too much than too little.

It is the teaching of all history that liberty can only be preserved in small areas. Local self-government is, therefore, indispensable to liberty. A centralized and distant bureaucracy is the worst of all tyranny.

Taxation can justly be levied for no purpose other than to provide revenue for the support of the government. To tax one person, class or section to provide revenue for the benefit of another is none the less robbery because done under the form of law and called taxation."

John W. Davis, Democratic Presidential Candidate, 1924. Davis was one of the greatest trial and appellate lawyers in US history. He also served as the US Ambassador to the UK.
[linked image]

 
 
WAFFer
(Login Indigo112)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 29 2012, 8:26 PM 

"Distomo was in response to killing of German soldiers by guerrillas. The same applied to other places where executions of civilians took place. However, for every 1 incident of German brutality you give me, I can give you 10 instances of Soviet barbarity."


Sure kid. But i'm intrigued by your offer. So for every single example of German brutality and barbarity I give you, you'll give me 10 examples of Soviet barbarity/brutalaty ?


I'm game my friend. Lets start shell we ? Give me 10 examples for every Jew that died in the gas chambers or was worked to death. Then give me 10 examples for every 10 million soviet women that were raped by the Germans and their allies.


Edit


"Ukrainians welcomed German troops as liberators."

And changed their mind soon after.


"If you blame Hitler for World War II, you could be right. One wonders though had Stalin not given the Germans bases in Russia to train and develop their military, in violation of German obligations under Versailles, whether Hitler would have been able to accomplish the Anschluss, the annexation of Czechoslovakia or any of the other prerequisites to Poland. Or, whether Hitler and Stalin had not reached the agreement to divide Poland or any of a myriad of other actions which Stalin took to bring about the war. Based upon that, I'm not sure one can attribute all of the World War II casualties solely to Hitler."


You make a point, sir! I think i'll have to agree with. But let's be fair and add to that also the fact England, Frence did their own share of appeasement. And had the Treaty of Versailles not been so harsh ....WWII could have perhaps been avoided. or heck had the frenche and the Brits responded to the Soviet offer of a Anti nazi alliance. Germany could have been stopped much sooner. Hell perhaps if not the rise of communism in Germany in the 20's ..hitler wouldn't have gained the position he gained.



    
This message has been edited by Indigo112 on May 29, 2012 8:51 PM


 
 

Kallimachos
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Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 31 2012, 1:14 AM 

And what is 6 million? Stalin killed 6 million before he had his lunch...he killed thousands of his own offices, thousands of Polish officers, murdered millions of Ukranians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians.

Heck, he had the entire population of Chechnya on a death march to the middle of nowhere. Yes, the Germans were evil, but Stalin and the Soviets outdid them in every category.

Which is why in the end, the Allies and Germans became friends because even Winston Churchill realized that the Soviets were much worse than the Germans.





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WAFFer
(Login Indigo112)
Imperium Europeum (Europe)

Re: Stalin's Genocides

May 31 2012, 10:33 AM 

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This message has been edited by Indigo112 on May 31, 2012 10:35 AM


 
 

WAFFer
(Login PradoTLC)
Shaheens (Pakistan)

Re: Stalin's Genocides

June 3 2012, 12:57 PM 

have to agree Stalin was far worse. The guy no concept humanity for any one

a perfect infidel



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