For no particular reason I was recently thinking
about Batgirl. I was thinking about the impact
you said she had on you as a kid & how you've said
that you have 5 years worth of stories for her.
Well, I was thinking about how I would handle the
character, & I'm curious about what your take on
the character is as well.

First, I'd get rid of this "niece/adopted daughter"
thing, Barbara is James Gordon's daughter, period.
Gordon was a strict parent, every day he sees the
worst side of Gotham City, so he wants to shield
his only daughter from all of that. So Barbara
grows up as "the cop's kid," when the other girls
are going out & partying, Babs is at home studying.
She loves her father & wants to please him, but a
part of her wants to cut loose. One night she
secretly sees her father meeting with Batman, &
suddenly she's inspired.

See, by day she's daddy's girl. The librarian with her
buttoned-up blouse, big glasses, & hair pulled back
in a tight bun. But at night, she's free. Takes off
those glasses, lets down her hair, puts on that
skintight black suit & becomes BATGIRL! Unlike Bruce
Wayne, who's compelled to be Batman, Babs enjoys being
Batgirl. Leaping from rooftops, swinging on a rope,
it's almost like an addiction. She loves the adrenaline rush. She's no dark knight, she's definately a caped crusader. I kind of see her like
Spider-Man. She's smiling & cracking jokes when
she's fighting the bad guys. Nothing feels better
to her than kicking some lowlife scumbag in the
face after a long hard day of being all Miss
Manners.

This is what I think is missing in many modern
superheroes, the clear diffence between the
secret identity & the heroic identity.

Another thing I would do is emphasize the hi-tech
equipment with Batgirl. She's obviously not as
physically able as Batman, athough she's a great
acrobat, but she's much more adept at computers.
So I'd have her utilizing all sorts of different
weapons. She'd have the typical stun-guns,
blackout bombs, and paralysis spray, but also a
device that can shut down any electric machine, a
PDA she carries that she can get any kind of information from that she needs, like if she
types in someones name she'll instantly get
their medical & criminal history, credit rating,
home address, etc.

Maybe I'd equip her with some sort of A.I.
computer system called "Oracle" that she can talk
to & get info from while she's out on patrol.
But I'm not sure about that. Oracle could almost
be like her own version of Alfred, or maybe
that's a little too sci-fi.

I'd also keep the relationship with Dick Grayson/
Nightwing. I think they could be one of those
rare superhero couples that the fans actually
accept. I see them as a fun couple who get together
on the weekends (since they life in different
cities) & go rock climbing, white water rafting,
sky-diving, & doing things like that.

As for the actual stories, first we need to
give her a definative rogues gallery. A hero is
only as good as his (or her) villains. The first
year I'd probably do something similar to the
recent "Hush" storyline in Batman. Each issue
she faces some brand new villain & in the end
there'd be some major villain who was behind
the scenes the whole time. So by the end of the
first year she'd have her own Joker, Riddler,
Two-Face, etc. I'm not talking about direct
copies of those villains, you understand, but recurring villains of that stature.

The only direct correlation I'd be looking for is
Catwoman. I'd create some sexy male villain who
Batgirl would find herself attracted to even tho
she knows she shouldn't be. This guy's motivations
would be a little cloudy, so Babs is never quite
sure which side he's on.

During the second year we can have her facing
more established DC villains, as well as
maybe do some team-ups with other DC heroines.
But I don't want to just have her teaming up
with female superheroes like Black Canary &
Huntress or fighting female villains like
Poison Ivy. That's too sterotypical. I'd want
to do a Batgirl/Superman story, see how they
relate to each differently than Batman & Superman.
And see lets Batgirl vs. The Toyman or someone like
that.

Anyway, those are just some random ideas I had.
This is the first time I've written any of it
down, I'm sure if I really sat down & plotted this
out I could be more concise. In any case I'm
interested to hear what you think, particularly in
regards to my take on Barbara's motivation for
being Batgirl, & how is it different from yours?

>> This is the first time I've written any of it
down, I'm sure if I really sat down & plotted this
out I could be more concise. <<

Oh I have years' worth of stuff written down and outlined and everything, but it's going to DC along with Glenn Brown's artwork, it's not gonna be posted here. The last thing I need is for my first and only experience hawking a series in Comicland to be ripped off by some unsavoury "professional" ~ and let's face it, many of them are unsavoury. And no, I don't think we have a chance in hell of getting anywhere with it, but it would be a nice Miracle if we did. It's enough for me to know that I tried once in my life, really. Batgirl deserves to be treated with the utmost respect and care, she's the best female superhero ever, an "attainable" role model for young girls in a way that Supergirl and Wonder Woman could never be. I would like to "give back" to the character that meant so much to me.

So let's talk more in abstracts rather than specific details, okay?

First of all I wanna tell you that I do like enough of your take on Batgirl that I'd buy and read your series. But we disagree on a few points, some are just minor window-dressing, but also some things which are quite crucial in my opinion.

Batgirl was blessed with a very detailed "personality profile" in her original stories, considering she was a relatively minor character who was shoehorned into the Batman mythos for Girl Reader Appeal, and to set up her addition to the TV series the following season. If you read her early appearances from 1966 and 1967, it really tells you all you need to know about Barbara Gordon's motivations, skills and behaviour, and like any well-conceived silver age character she could be extrapolated in pretty much a straight line to the more "sophisticated" requirements of writing her as a contemporary '00s character. But in order to bring her correctly into the here and now, we have to fix and/or ignore about 30 years of neglect and outright abuse on the part of interim writers, the vast majority of whom got her so totally wrong it's a wonder she wasn't simply killed off by 1975.

The handling of Batgirl is DC's biggest shame as far as I'm concerned. More than Barry Allen, more than Hal Jordan. Her treatment has been an absolute disgrace for more than three decades.

This is possibly the only instance in which I'd actually prefer to see a new direction, that is to say a redirection back to who Barbara Gordon was in the first place, be done within continuity. Undoing the HORRIFIC MESS would actually be a better way of delineating Batgirl's personality, talents, abilities motivations, reasoning, where she fits in the DCU pantheon of heroes ~ it would actually be more effective to work her out of her present situation than if we rebooted from scratch. Just to give me the opportunity to boldly underline all the things that make her Batgirl, who she is as a person, what she can do, why she's a ***frontline*** superhero. (And the name Batgirl has to go, it's been inappropriate for her since the 1970s, on several levels. Not revealing what I'd call her. Shhhh ...)

>> I'd also keep the relationship with Dick Grayson/
Nightwing. I think they could be one of those
rare superhero couples that the fans actually
accept. I see them as a fun couple who get together
on the weekends (since they life in different
cities) & go rock climbing, white water rafting,
sky-diving, & doing things like that. <<

I disagree with these points. Barbara isn't an "outdoorsy gal" at all, she's a city girl who would never have developed a taste for that kind of socialising, it wouldn't appeal to her. Her favourite pursuits are solitary and "quiet", as shown in the original stories. She cocooned herself in a "bookworm environment", she likes research, puzzles, mental pursuits ... she loved fussing with machines, electronics ... remember she didn't have Bruce Wayne's money, she built her own Batgear all by her lonesome. Her need for "outdoor thrills" was always satisfied in the artificial confines of an urban environment, as Batgirl. She was sort of a proto version of the little "tek girlz" we see on cartoons nowadays, in fact. The type of girl where a certain level of tomboyishness is evinced but it's only in her interests and desires, it's not in her attire or demeanour. Skydiving and rafting and such, they'd be uninteresting and fairly alien to her. Even her training regimen, her physical skills, these were developed in the basement of the library branch she worked at! She didn't travel the globe and train in all sorts of outdoor environs like Batman did.

And she wouldn't be socialising with Nightwing in any case. He would be one of the first characters to be excised from the Batgirl cast. This is a relationship which should never have happened in the first place, even if we forgive the fact that Dick Grayson aged about a decade whilst Barbara Gordon remained at her original age! Remember, Robin started off as a kid compared to the grown (she was young, but clearly an adult) woman Barbara was. A woman with a career, a position of authority. She was Head Librarian in the main branch of the GCPL. That's not a job given to a teenager!

Barbara's motivations for becoming Batgirl were mixed, but one very crucial part of it was her admiration for Batman. It was a somewhat startrippy admiration, which informed much of her behaviour in the early stories. She was intent on "proving herself to Batman" not just to impress him, not just to impress herself, and not wholely to "help" either ~ she wanted to become his partner. Not as the awkward "third wheel on a bicycle" that she was often shown as in Bat Family splash pages of the '70s, but as a REPLACEMENT for Robin. An IMPROVEMENT on Robin, in her mind. Her thought balloons and spoken dialogue detail this pretty clearly. She had her heart set on The Big Guy, not his li'l kid sidekick!

Now extrapolate this motivation into the present day ... it does make some logical sense that her inability to "land" Batman as a Partner either professionally (crimefighting) or privately (love) might lead to her ending up with a "reasonable facsimile", the Junior Bat. Barbara was portrayed as having a certain "hole in her self-image" which often drives her to grab the bandaid first and think through the actual cure later. But the eventual conclusion such a woman would reach is that she's not willing to "settle" ~ and that's what Dick Grayson really is in her life, he's Second Prize. He's settling. So he's gone. She'll shed some tears, but she'll end the relationship.

(More to come ...)

For instance, I always thought her T.V. appearances
came first & then she was added to the comic-book,
similar to Aunt Harriet.

I also admit that I don't have as much a connection
to Batgirl as you do. I remember reading some old
Batman Family issues as kid with Batgirl in them,
but that's about it. In fact I remember when I first
read The Killing Joke I didn't even think about the
effect on Batgirl when Barbara got shot.

And as I've said before, I do like the
Oracle character she currently plays.

And I had no idea that you were actually
considering submitting to DC. Good luck with
that! And don't be so sure about not having
a chance, you never know. I recently read about
how they're reintroducing the "real" Supergirl(Superman's cousin) to the DCU, because they
said they realized what an important part she's always played in the Supeman mythos. Who knows?
Maybe they'll remember the same thing about
Batgirl?

I thought it was interesting your comment
about Batgirl being better than Supergirl &
Wonder Woman because she's more attainable.
My immediate reaction was that's blasphemy,
since Wonder Woman is my 4th favorite superhero
of all time. But I can see your point. That may
be why I like Batman (#1, tied with Spider-Man)
more than Superman (#3, after Captain Marvel) because, theoritically speaking, you could
actually BE Batman (if you inherit a billion $
& spend your whole life working out) whereas
Superman is strictly a fantasy charater.

And absolutely, don't post any original
ideas here. I had a similar realization
recently when I was on the Shazam thread on
the DC board. It was about how would you
revamp Captain Marvel. So I was halfway
through typing up my proposal when I thought,
"Hey, how do I know someone else won't just
steal this?" So I hit the delete button.

Back to Batgirl:
My ideas were definately more along the
lines of a total reboot, ala Man Of Steel,
as opposed to an in-continuity revamp. That's probably just laziness on my part, but like I
said, I don't know as much about the
character's history. But in-continuity is
probably the better way to go. I mean, the DC universe has aliens, wizards, time-travellers,
etc., there has to be some way to get Barbara
out of that wheelchair. Can't S.T.A.R. Labs
insert some cybornetic implants in her legs or something? Come on now.

The only 2 points I'd slightly argue with
you is, first the "outdoorsy" thing. I know
she's a city girl, & definately a brainiac.
But I would just think that someone who puts
on a costume & swings from rooftops to beat up
crooks would also have a lot of pent-up energy
inside of them. That's why I said her prime motivation would be the adrenaline rush she
gets. I would happen to think that would be
kind of hard to turn off sometimes. That's why
I can see her bungee-jumping for fun, I'd also imagine that she loves to go to amusement parks
& ride roller-coasters. But again, I defer
to you.

Of course, I'm always thinking about the
psychological motivations of superheroes.
I can't help it. I guess that's just the
Alan Moore influence in me. . .

And I really like the relationship with
Nightwing. The age thing doesn't bother me
(I've always prefered older women myself),
besides, how old are they? I know that's always
a problem when dealing with superheroes, but
let's think about. Taking all of her
accomplishments that you listed into
consideration, we agree that she's almost a
genius. So lets say she graduated from High
School at 15, & then from college at 19. So she becomes Batgirl when she's 21 or 22. And has
her team-ups with Robin when he's 13. That may
be a big diffence then, but if we say she's now
32 or 33, & he's 23 or 24, then what's the
big deal?

Shoot, look at Demi & Ashton. . .uh, nevermind.

Of course, unlike many "old school" comics
fans (particularly many on "that other board")
I also think that Clark & Lois' marraige is a
good thing, & so is Peter & MJ's. Why can't superheroes have a little love in their lives?
Love makes the world go 'round, dammit! Oh well,
I guess I'm just a hopeless romantic.

The other thing I would ask you about is her
name. Can she still be called Batgirl or is
Batwoman more appropriate? I mean, this aint
the 60's anymore. Some woman don't like being
called "girls." That's why old what's-his-name
changed Sue Richards to Invisible Woman.
Just curious what you think about that.

Anyway, I stand a computer all day, shipping
packages through UPS (yes, it is just as
exciting as it sounds) so my mind often tends
to wander. Lately I've just been thinking about superheroes that I've never particularly been
into, & trying to see if I could come up with an interesting take on them. That's where this all started.




Now, if I could just figure out what the
heck I would do with Aquaman. . .

>> Now, if I could just figure out what the
heck I would do with Aquaman. . . <<

Oh good luck! I have exactly one Aquaman panel I'd like to do, and then someone else can have the book. Someone is yammering away at him, annoying him ... finally Aquaman motions and says, "Talk to the hand!"

>> The other thing I would ask you about is her
name. Can she still be called Batgirl or is
Batwoman more appropriate? I mean, this aint
the 60's anymore. Some woman don't like being
called "girls." That's why old what's-his-name
changed Sue Richards to Invisible Woman.
Just curious what you think about that. <<

See previous post ... I agree with you, but not sharing what I'd call her, yet.

>> I thought it was interesting your comment
about Batgirl being better than Supergirl &
Wonder Woman because she's more attainable.
My immediate reaction was that's blasphemy,
since Wonder Woman is my 4th favorite superhero
of all time. But I can see your point. That may
be why I like Batman (#1, tied with Spider-Man)
more than Superman (#3, after Captain Marvel) because, theoritically speaking, you could
actually BE Batman (if you inherit a billion $
& spend your whole life working out) whereas
Superman is strictly a fantasy charater. <<

Hey I am living proof that Barbara Gordon can serve as a role model for kids. You can certainly grow up to be a librarian ~ hell you can even grow up to be wealthy like Bruce Wayne, complete with philanthropic enterprises and everything ~ it's not so easy to grow up to be a Kryptonian or an Amazon. (Although I suppose Chyna came close ...)

I consider Batgirl DC's most important female superhero, as crucial as Batman is to their larger male audience. You're free to disagree based on your tastes, that's fine. Nothing wrong with fantasy characters. These are comic books, we don't need every character to be so "grounded". But Batgirl has never even been treated by DC as an equal amongst her peers, let alone as a frontliner. That's wrong, it's wrong from a story perspective and it's stupid from a business perspective. A solid, well-played, distinct female superhero who has connections to a proven-successful male character is a potential goldmine. Batgirl has never been afforded such a showcase. She deserves to be played this way and I'm convinced she'd reap major dividends if played this way.

>> But in-continuity is
probably the better way to go. I mean, the DC universe has aliens, wizards, time-travellers,
etc., there has to be some way to get Barbara
out of that wheelchair. Can't S.T.A.R. Labs
insert some cybornetic implants in her legs or something? Come on now. <<

Oh there are a hundred ways to fix this! But what I have planned is what I consider most appropriate in a "Barbara Gordon specific way", because the cure doesn't rely on superpowers or magic. It doesn't rely on any assistance from other characters at all, really ~ not anyone's willing assistance, I should say. It's better illustrative of her capabilities. There is a way for her to "cure herself", and by doing so, underline just what this woman is capable of ~ I mean that in both positive and negative connotations. Again, not telling how, just yet. (Trust me.)

Is this a private conversation or can anyone jump in?
I just wanted to say that Linda has reeeeally got me
curious. I get not wanting to give away any story
ideas, but what about the name? Besides Batgirl and
Batwoman, what other name is there? I assume you want
to keep the Bat connection to her name, so The
Huntress is out. Batlady? Batchick? Batbroad?
Batdame? Battitude v 2.0? Come on, what would you call
her? Enquiring minds what to know.




Just by coincidence, todays comic strip, The Boondocks,
features a conversation between Huey and his buddy, Ceasar:

CEASAR: I'm telling you, the Democrats are like the
"Justice League." Dean is Superman. Clark seems like
Batman to me. And Gephardt is definitely Aquaman.

HUEY: Why Aquaman?

CEASAR: Nobody really knows what he does and nobody
cares.

"I just wanted to say that Linda has reeeeally got me
curious."

Not surprising. Linda is a most curious woman. (While I am a curiously strong mint.)

DW

"You've spent too much time around all this Democratic rabble." - Kor (John Colicos)

>> Besides Batgirl and Batwoman, what other name is there? I assume you want to keep the Bat connection to her name, so The Huntress is out. Batlady? Batchick? Batbroad? Batdame? Battitude v 2.0? Come on, what would you call her? <<

Not telling yet. Either read it in the comic, or if the whole concept is rejected of course I'll share everything here! (Did I say that she wouldn't be called one of the names you listed? Or maybe she could be "Battleaxe" ... sigh.)

I know it doesn't generally have the most sophisticated posters (to put it mildly) but I was
just lurking around over there & someone named
"catwomanlover" started a thread called "Bring Back
Barbara G as Batgirl" & there were some interesting
comments on it. It begins with:

"Yes, I said it and I don't care who's toes I am about to stomp on! I feel that there is no other BATGIRL other than Barbara Gordon! I am probably one of the BIGGEST BABS/BATGIRL fan on here and I say DC please give us the real BATGIRL back! Oracle has been a wonderful asset to the DC heroes and a role model to the handicap, but, I say its' high time Barbara regain the use of her legs and walk again. I cannot stand this other gal as Batgirl and do not regard her as such. This new so called Batgirl has no style or grace. I feel whoever created this version should be switched! I have read from so many readers both handicapped or non-handicapped what a great role model Barbara Gordon is now and I say HMMMF!! She would be an even greater role model if she was healed and started walking again and decided to take back what is rightfully hers. I would even be satisfied if she became BATWOMAN!! Especially, since there is going to be that BATWOMAN video/movie out in the fall. HMMMM, could I be on to something? BATWOMANs' secret identity in this video is going to be a shocker and is supposed to be a member of the BATMAN FAMILY. I think this would be a stepping stone to allow Barbara Gordon to return to the land of the walking and become BATGIRL or BATWOMAN again."

A couple of people chime in about how Babs/Batgirl was
pointless, Cassie is much better, Oracle is so heroic,
quit living in the past, etc. So "catwomanlover"
comes back:

"Listen people, I don't care what you say about living in the past...yadda yadda....have you ever heard the one about "They just don't make 'em like they used to!!" Well, as far as that goes, I apply that quote to DC Comics this so called Batgirl and some of you kids. It was a big mistake to have Barbara Gordon be shot and then confined to a wheelchair and then become a "special" hero and then use this to pacify the handicap readers. The Barbara Gordon-BATGIRL was my favorite heroine in the DC Universe and I am sure if the same thing had happened years ago to one of your heroines, you would ALL be B!TCHIN and MOANIN worse than I am complaining now. I do believe Barbara will walk again and as far as who is going to be ORACLE? Why do we need an ORACLE anyway after this? The DC Universe did just fine without an ORACLE in the 50's. 60's , 70's and 80's! But, with the ideas that float around DC Comics, I am sure someone will think of a character better than ORACLE that would be even more advanced and helpful.

It is also my opinion that I can't stand this so called Batgirl that we have now. I feel if they would re-do the costume I may would be more accepting to start. And, then when Barbara walks again, the title of BATWOMAN would be more suited for her. I feel Barbara Gordon is such a strong character and deserves more than what she is getting now. And a recovery for her would only give handicaped people hope and not a crutch to lean on as far as Barbaras' confinement to a wheelchair is concerned.

Come on DC, Lets see Barbara Gordon return to the streets of GOTHAM with a vengence and a darkness that would rival the Dark Knights."

That's just the 1st page, the thread had 170 replies, including one who said that Babs/Batgirl is his 2nd favorite character right after Aquaman (seriously). There's a newer thread called "EXIT BATGIRL/ENTER BATWOMAN" started by "Batgirl8" who says:

"IDEA!!!! BARBARA GORDON regains her ability to walk again and doesn't let anyone know. A new and deadly VILLAIN/VILLAINESS appears and almost KILLS CASSIE/BATGIRL. As Cassie is fighting for her life, Barbara longs to wear the BAT-SUIT again, but not as BATGIRL, but, BATWOMAN!! The costume would be a combination of her previous BATGIRL costume and the old KATHY KANE/BATWOMAN costume. BATMAN, NIGHTWING, ROBIN and HUNTRESS as well CATWOMAN and other members of the BAT-FAMILY and their VILLAINS plus this NEW VILLAIN will be mystified with the appearence of this NEW BATWOMAN!! Not even BATMAN will be able to unravel that BARBARA is the new BATWOMAN, until a shocking twist takes place and puts another member of the BATMAN family in jeopardy, thus forcing BARBARA to reveal her TRUE identity to BATMAN as THE NEW BATWOMAN!!!

DAMN!! That was even getting me EXCITED!! I need a JOB at DC!! LOL"

Like I said, you never know. The PTB at DC might see some of these passionate responses & decide to bring
her back. Especially if they happen to get some fantastic new proposal from some lifelong Batgirl fan. . .


And just for the record, I actually do have ONE idea for an Aquaman story, but just one issue. Maybe if I "padded" it a bit I could stretch it into 2 issues,
but as for writing an ongoing series, forget it, I'd
be up a creek without a paddle.

Hey Ms. Burns, I don't mean to bump up this old thread,
but this is on topic. I was checking out that "other
board" today and I saw that thread about what's wrong
with modern Batman. Ignoring Byrne's little cheap
shot at Alan Moore, I have to say that your comments
regarding Batgirl really stood out. I loved when you
said that only YOU could right a proper Batgirl
series! That statement alone guaruntees that if you
ever do write a Batgirl series I will definately buy
it! Hell, if you started a Batgirl (or whatever you
plan to call her) fanfic website I'd check it out.

Many fans have debated what's the best way to help
the industry survive and I think you just demonstrated
one of solutions. We need writers (and artists, inkers,
colorists, letterers, and editors) who really feel
passion for what they create. EVERY SINGLE TITLE
should be written by someone who has the same attitude
about it that you have about Batgirl. Don't accept an
assignment just because you need the money or you
hope it'll be a stepping stone to something bigger or
any other reason. If you're not DYING to write "The
Amazing Adventures Of Elongated Man" or "Ambush Bug
Unleashed" then pass on it and let someone else who is
dying to write it take over.

Obviously, the industry needs to do better at advertising and promoting their products too. A series
could be fantastically written and drawn but that
won't matter if it's only sold in the same comic
book stores that the same ageing audience is already
shopping at. We need to get your Batgirl title in
the bookstores next to Sailor Moon so your target
audience of young girls can actually see it. But first
we need to make sure the product is good, and I think
that if more creators thought like you then we'd be
in better shape.

All right, so yesterday I broke my self-imposed exile
from "upstairs." I couldn't help myself, there was little too much dissin' of my man Alan Moore going on
and, although I know he certainly doesn't need it, I
felt the need to at least partially defend him. It
started with a debate about the appropriateness of
Moore using a real-life murder as Rorschach's
inspiration in WATCHMEN & then moved into another
thread regarding Barbara Gordon getting crippled in
THE KILLING JOKE.

Note: Dang, Ms. Burns, you are REALLY obsessed with
Batgirl aren't you? I mean that in a good way.

Anyway, I posted the following quotes from Alan
Moore regarding THE KILLING JOKE:

"The only problem I've got with it is my writing. And I think that the problem
was that I wrote it while I was writing WATCHMEN, or just after. But, I was
still too close to WATCHMEN. I was also bringing the same kind of quite grim,
moral sensibility to Batman."

"There's lots of nastiness in WATCHMEN. But with WATCHMEN you're talking
about kind of the universal issues; there's a payoff. There's some nasty stuff
in SWAMP THING, again, it's fine to talk about something that's important
in a lot of those stories. If you're going to play the nasty card then you
have to make sure that you've got a good reason for playing it, that it's not
just gratutitous. That it's just not there to make an otherwiss, perhaps,
dull story more exciting. Don't do something horrible and nasty just because
you couldn't think of anything interesting."

"That's easy and cheap. And I think that that's probably, at the end of the
day, what happened with THE KILLING JOKE, because there's some very
nasty things in THE KILLING JOKE and ultimately at the end of the day
THE KILLING JOKE is about Batman and the Joker; it isn't about anything
that you're ever going to encounter in real life, because Batman and the
Joker ae not like any human beings that have ever lived. So there's no
important human information being imparted."

"On the other hand, I've seen some of the other-there've been worse
Batman books than THE KILLING JOKE. THE KILLING JOKE is probably
not as bad as I've painted it. There have certainly been worse things
done with Batman or with other a lot of superheroes for that matter."

"So in context, THE KILLING JOKE wasn't as bad a book as I've said it
was, probably. That in terms of what I want from a book from my
writing, yeah, it was something that I thought was clumsy,
misjudged and had no real human importance."

******************

So Moore actually agrees with the critics of TKJ.
He said some other interesting things in that
interview. First, he went out of his way to praise
Brian Bolland's artwork in TKJ. He also strongly
critisized DC's decision to market TKJ as a "graphic
novel." He said the story was originally just
supposed to be a Batman annual, and that at 46 pages
it couldn't be legitimately considered any sort of
"novel." He said that was just DC's way to try to
make it seem more "respectable" than a mere comic
book.

Incidently, he also hates to hear WATCHMEN referred
to as a graphic novel because he said that gn's
are material that is specifically written for that
format, whereas WATCHMEN was written as 12-part serial
fiction, so collecting them all into one volume makes
it a trade paperback, NOT a graphic novel.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I disagree with
Alan Moore's assesment of his own work in TKJ. I
read it when I was a kid, before I ever paid attention
to who wrote or draw the comics that I liked. I still
think it's a great story, if you actually look at the
subtext involved.

Byrne stated that the Joker's backstory seemed to
try to paint him as a victim, as if we should feel
sorry for him, but I didn't get that from it.
The Joker may see himself as a victim because of
what happened to him, and he thinks that everyone
would snap like he did if they suffered the same
trauma. Right after he shot Barbara she asks him why
he's doing this and he says "To prove a point."

He beleived that deep down Batman is just as nuts as
he is, and he was trying to prove that by driving
Commissoner Gordon insane too. But in the end it
doesn't work. One of the most powerful scenes to me
was after Batman rescued Gordon, who had just been
sadistically tormented by the Joker. Gordon tells
Batman to go get the Joker.

GORDON: I want him brought in...and I want him
brought in by the book!

BATMAN: I'll do my best.

GORDON: By the book, you hear? We have to show him!
We have to show him that our way works!

See, despite what happened to him, Gordon DIDN'T
snap. And that is why the Joker's past doesn't
excuse his current behavior. Lots of people
suffer great tragedy in their lives, they don't
all become homicidal maniacs. Joker was trying to
prove that everyone is like him, but Gordon and
Batman proved him wrong, by being better than him
and not stooping to his level.

That's what I got from TKJ as a young teeneager.
Doing the right thing no matter what, & not using
bad things as an excuse.

Byrne mentioned Batman and the Joker laughing
together at the end as being inappropriate, and
you know what? He has a point. At the time it
seemed like a good ending to the story, but looking
harder at it I guess it's kind of wrong. But
as Alan Moore said, there HAVE been worse things in
Batman books.

Anybody here read BATMAN YEAR TWO? That was the
miniseries where Batman needs to take down a
vigilante called The Reaper, so he teams up with
Joe Chill...THE MAN WHO MURDERED BATMAN'S PARENTS!!!

Now THAT was insane.

Still, Alan Moore is one of those people, like
John Byrne, whom people generally seem to have
unbreakble pro or con feelings about, so I doubt
I've changed anyone's mind regarding TKJ, just as
I won't try to argue the point about Kitty Genovese
in WATCHMEN, but I do find it ironic that Moore
himself is so disdainful of TKJ, especially since I
still like it. It just goes to show, IMO, that even
Alan Moore's WORST work is still better than most
other writer's average stuff.



P.S. That Gail Simone seems like a really cool chick.
I haven't actually read any of her stuff, but I
think I'm becoming a fan of hers.

Two years after we've fixed Captain Atom and Batgirl, and we're riding high as fandom's darlings, you and I will go have a nice long lunch at a posh restaurant and discuss this. Loser of the debate picks up the tab. What do you say?

It's a deal.

I volunteer to determine the winner of the debate, as long as I get to eat as well. (I'm not above bribery, BTW. )

>>All right, so yesterday I broke my self-imposed exile
from "upstairs."<<

Traitor.

>>...there was little too much dissin' of my man Alan Moore going
on and, although I know he certainly doesn't need it, I felt the need
to at least partially defend him.<<

He doesn't need anyone to defend him. His work speaks for itself.

>>I still think it's a great story,-<<

So do I.

>>GORDON: I want him brought in...and I want him
brought in by the book!<<

Except...if he really wanted him brought in "by the book"
then he should call some other policemen to do it & not
Batman, who is an illegal vigilante. But I digress.

>>Still, Alan Moore is one of those people, like
John Byrne, whom people generally seem to have
unbreakble pro or con feelings about,-<<

I actually think that if Moore & Byrne got together to go out
drinking or something they'd probably get along rather well.
Whether Byrne would ever admit it or not, their fundamental
opinions on the comic-book industry are not that different.

>>...even Alan Moore's WORST work is still better than most
other writer's average stuff.<<

You can say that again.

>>...even Alan Moore's WORST work is still better than most
other writer's average stuff.<<

See?

>>That Gail Simone seems like a really cool chick.<<

She sure does (& I haven't read BOP either...yet).

*************************

I also read the Batgirl thread on the JBF (from my work computer,
since I've recently been blocked from viewing it on my home
computer, but it's all good) & I have to say that my opinion of
Batgirl has been drastically changed recently. Reading all of LB's
obssessive rants, oops, I mean "passionate advocacy" of Babs both
here and "over there" have really shown me the importance of a
character like that.

If you think about it, Batgirl makes a lot more sense than Robin.
There's no way Batman would ever realistically (yes, I know we're
talking about comic-books here) hire a teenage boy to be his
partner. Come on, going out at night, swinging from rooftops &
facing muggers, robbers, etc., not to mention all of the various
costumed psychopaths, is dangerous work. Batman may be willing to
risk his own life on nightly basis, but he would never do that to
a child.

And if I can pause a minute to put on my patented "Alan Moore
Superhero Psychological Motivation Cap" let me theorize that
while I believe Bruce Wayne relishes his role as Batman, as it has
given his life a true purpose, there's also a part of him that
regrets the "normal" childhood that he gave up. He wouldn't want
anyone else to be forced to do that. When he adopted Dick Grayson
he would've done everything to keep him away from the Batman
life & just wanted him to go to school, have friends, go to parties,
date girls, then go to college, maybe join a fraternity, graduate &
then find some career that he was interested in, get married, have
kids, etc., etc., & so on. Sure, he would've tried to instill a sense
of responsiblity into Dick, but he wouldn't need to be a vigilante
for that. Maybe Dick would end up the President of the Wayne
Foundation & turn that into an even bigger charitable organization
than the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Jason Todd would end
up running mentoring programs for troubled youth in Gotham City
while Tim Drake would probably run for Mayor.

But Barbara, on the other hand, works because she's totally
independant of Batman. He has no say or control over what she
does. I'd have it so that on her first adventure she ended up
saving Batman from some sort of deathtrap that he got caught in
& in the process accidently discovered his secret ID. That way,
Batman feels both indepted to her & obligated to help train her
since there's now no way he can stop her anyway. It's the old
"if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" thing.

So, as an independate operater, she truly is his parter & not his
sidekick. Although as I feel the need to note that Barbara's
commitment to Batman MUST be strictly platonic. If you try to
even hint that part of her motivation is she has a crush on him
I feel that would somewhat weaken the character. It's a little
too sterotypical if you ask me. A woman can have a man as a role
model without desiring him in any way, & vice versa.
Oprah Winfrey is one of my heroes but I don't want to get with
her.

Besides, everyone knows Batman is destined to be with Selina
Kyle...

But back on-topic: I know we'll never be able to ever get rid of
Robin, as "Batman & Robin" is simply too ingrained in the public
consciousness, but I think "Batman & Batwoman" would be even
better.

Just my opinion.

Although the last 20+ years have conspired to make us believe that only someone crazy would be Batman, if a sane Bruce Wayne genuinely believes Batman is a good idea, there's no reason to assume he might not think training a young partner is a good idea, too. "Imagine how good he could be if he gets started at 12, not waiting till he's 18 like I did!"

Right. So let's look at that theory further:

You have a 35 year old policeman who decides
that he's going to train his 12 year old son
to be his partner. He gives him a gun, a
baton, & a badge & says "Hop into the patrol
car, son! Just think, I didn't join the force
until I was 21, but if you start now, imagine
how much better you'll be when you're my age!"

Sound like a good idea?

How about a firefighter taking his 12 year old
son with him into a burning building to put out
the fire & rescue the residents?

Or how about a 12 year old marine going over
to Afghanistan with his dad? Gonna shoot it
out with Al Queda & hunt down Osama.

Get the point?


[I wish this place had a spell-check]

He's not training him to be a cop or a firefighter but a superhero. It's not the same thing. It's not a job, it's a life. It makes the priesthood look like a thing to do while knocking around. It's that crazy skater living 12 hours away from her parents from 5-16 so she can be in the Olympics kind of thing. And then squared. Assuming he really thinks this superhero gig is a good idea, it's not unreasonable that he might also think, "Can't start too young."

Y'know, I bet there a plenty cops, firefighters,
& soldiers who consider what they do to be more
than "just a job."

But that's really not the point. Even if we
want to accept the fact that Bruce Wayne
generally believes that being a costumed vigilante
is a worthwhile life, that's still a bit of a reach
to then say it's logical that he would enlist a
12 year old as his partner. He might very well
take to training Dick (or Jason or Tim) in all of
the various martial arts & detective skills,
the same way most fathers teach their sons how
to play sports, but he wouldn't actually take him
out to fight crime with him until he was at
least eighteen, to make sure it was really what
he wanted to do. This is very dangerous work
after all.

But in the end these are comic-book characters
we're talking about, so some major belief
suspension is required in all of this anyway.
I mean, if I can accept the idea that a
billionaire spends his nights putting on a
costume & swinging from rooftops to fight
criminals, I guess I can also accept that he
has a teenage boy as a partner.

But I still think Batwoman makes more sense.

My point is this: you might not think it makes sense to train teens to be superheroes on the job, I might not think it makes sense to train teens to be superheroes on the job, but...

In a world where it's not crazy though not exactly a normal career path for people put on masks and fight crime, someone who steps away from the normal career path and puts on a mask to fight to crime and appreciates all the commitment that goes into it might think it makes perfect sense to train teens to be superheroes on the job.

Again, I refer to the athlete who trains like a maniac to be the girl on the medal dias at the end of the Olympics. I think it's crazy to let your kid give up her entire childhood to be starved and yelled at by a brutish moustachioed Roumanian, to push her body to and sometimes literally past the break point, to endure the bends-inducing pressures of the national and world spotlight just to have a million-to-one shot at the gold. But to people who live in the world of international athletics, it's normal. Twist it sideways and it's not that hard to believe that a Batman would have a Robin.

>>...starved and yelled at by a brutish moustachioed Roumanian-<<

Hey, leave my step-father out of this...

But really, I still think that's not quite the same
as being shot at, stabbed, kidnapped, etc., by
deranged psychopaths like The Joker, Two-Face, or
The Scarecrow.

Just for the record let me state that I do actually
like Robin. I think Chuck Dixon really knew how to
make Tim Drake interesting. I have all 3 miniseries'
plus his entire run on the ongoing series, which I
dropped when he left the title. I also loved Dixon's
run on Nightwing, & also dropped it when he left.
Peter David did a good job with Robin in Young
Justice as well, IMO. I'm just saying that if you
apply any sort of real wold logic to the character
then he simply doesn't make any sense.

Of course, this isn't the real world, it's the
comic-book world. Specifically, it's the DCU, where
we also have to believe that people can't
recognize Clark Kent when he takes off his glasses.

Suspension of disbelief, it's a wonderful thing
sometimes.

I'll mark you down as a "no," then. Still don't have any trouble with marking Bruce as a "yes."

I have to wonder about the Superman puts on glasses and becomes Clark Kent thing. I mean, it never was really that far of a reach, was it? We believe the Phantom can produce an athletic male heir for four centuries, of an age to take over, just in time, right? Some of the suspension is a lot easier for me to believe than others.
I find it far easier to believe either of the above, than, say, a pile of chemicals being dumped on Barry Allen at JUST the moment an electrical storm strikes his area....and he turns into a really fast guy. Just grabbing one from my childhood that we thought was a tad too far, even then.


Darren A. Dew

>>I have to wonder about the Superman puts on glasses and becomes Clark Kent thing. I mean, it never was really that far of a reach, was it? <<

I always assumed people didn't recognize him because his didn't want them to, a kind of unconscious telepathy even Superman isn't aware of.

I always thought the creators suggested no bystander could possibly mistake the drab, bespectacled Clark Kent for the the nigh-divine Superman. Superman was simply too awesome to be Clark Kent.

Kinda like the alien king from Gerald McBoingBoing, only in reverse:

Alien Knave 1: Hey!

Alien Knave 2: Huh?

Alien Knave 1: Who dat?

Alien Knave 2: What "who"?

Alien Knave 1: Him, who!

Alien Knave 2: Dat who?

Alien Knave 1: Yeah! Who dat?

Alien Knave 2: Dat de King.

Alien Knave 1: "De King" who?

Alien Knave 2: Him who!

Alien Knave 1: De King?

Alien Knave 2: Yeah, de King!

Alien Knave 1: How you know dat de King?

Alien Knave 2: He wearing de CROWN, ain't he?

Clark Kent wasn't wearing the cape, so he wasn't Superman.

(Dialogue from Gerald McBoingBoing completely paraphrased and misquoted.)

Hey LB,

While reading that latest Batgirl thread "over there" I was
intrigued when you mentioned the other characters you would like
to write. Let me just say that you're not the only one who
wants to write Dial H for Hero. I loved that series! Obviously the
original versions was before my time, but I used to read the 80's
version that was published in Adventure Comics, & then later as a
backup feature in Superboy. Those stories, with Vicki & Chris, were
some of my favorites. I even submitted a superhero for them to
use, but for the life of me, I can't remember a single thing about
him. Unfortunately, they didn't pick him, oh well. I later tracked
down a few House Of Mystery issues featuring the orginal Robbie
Reed version (sockamagee!) & that was pretty good too. He
actually appeared in the last of the 80's series, he was the wizard
who created the new H dials. That was just such a cool concept.

I tried to get into the current H-E-R-O series, but it's just not
the same, & I dropped it after the first 4-issue arc. Well maybe
one of us will get to bring back the originals some day...

Regarding origin stories like the Barry Allen Flash:
I have no problem with stories like that. It makes sense that it would take a whole bunch of unique circumstances and cosmic coincidences to grant someone super powers, or else there'd be superheroes all over the place.

It's funny, I have no problem suspending disbelief for
stuff like that, I'll accept the BIG things, it's the SMALL things that sometimes stick in my head and bug me. Like, I haven't picked up the MARVEL KNIGHTS FANTASTIC FOUR series, despite some great looking art, because I just can't buy the premise of the opening arc. They've gone broke? Right. I'm willing to accept that a guy can burst into flames whenever he feels like it, but don't expect me to believe that the FF have to get temp jobs to make ends meet. Please.

As for Superman/Clark Kent: IIRC, there was some super-hypnosis involved in the pre-crises stories. This was back when Supes had all of those powers like
super-ventriloquism. The idea was that he acted like a meek, mild man when he put on the glasses and that's what people saw when they looked at him. I remember the story I read with this in it, and Clark went to a sketch artist and the guy drew a picture of his face that looked totally different. He had like a bigger
forehead and a longer chin. Clark showed the sketch to Lana and she said that it looked just like him. So that's how they explained it.

Post-crises it's a bit simpler, though I don't know if it's any more believable. The idea is that since, unlike most superheroes, Superman doesn't wear a mask, so it doesn't even occur to people that he might have a secret identity. And since they don't even consider the possiblity, they don't notice any physical similarity between Clark and Superman.

>> Let me just say that you're not the only one who
wants to write Dial H for Hero. I loved that series! Obviously the
original versions was before my time, but I used to read the 80's
version that was published in Adventure Comics, & then later as a
backup feature in Superboy. Those stories, with Vicki & Chris, were
some of my favorites. I even submitted a superhero for them to
use, but for the life of me, I can't remember a single thing about
him. Unfortunately, they didn't pick him, oh well. I later tracked
down a few House Of Mystery issues featuring the orginal Robbie
Reed version (sockamagee!) & that was pretty good too. He
actually appeared in the last of the 80's series, he was the wizard
who created the new H dials. That was just such a cool concept. <<

Robbie Reed & Suzy Shoemaker, the original H-Dial characters, are tailor-made for updating into a kid-friendly (cartoon-ready!) title, I think. There's really no good way, in my opinion, to do the concept in an adult form without changing it big time as DC has tried to do. But as a more "childish" series I think it could be quite successful. Any kid who likes superheroes has designed numerous ones of their own, in their heads if not on paper. That's the basic appeal of Dial H. I would love to have kids submitting hero designs via the internet and choosing the best ones for Robbie and Suzy to turn into in each issue. That kind of interactivity could make for a lot of young readers. Winky Dink for the 21st century!

 Linda

Y'know it's funny, I never really thought about exactly what
was wrong with the new H-E-R-O series, or what it was that
I liked about it so much as a kid, but you nailed it. The stories
need to be focused on kids. And they need to be light-hearted
stories, unlike the "suicide hotline" storyline in the new series.
That's probably what drew me (& other kids) to Chris & Vicky,
& you to Robbie & Suzy. They were kids, just like us, except
they could turn into superheroes, which was the ultimate
wish-fullfilment fantasy of all kids who read superhero comics.

It's probably for this same that Captain Marvel outsold Superman
back in the 50's (until DC called on the lawyers) because kids could
more readily see themselves as Cap. I mean, you knew you weren't
an alien, so you'd never be Superman, but hey, one day some magic
Wizard MIGHT turn you into a superhero.

I admit it, a couple of times when I was a kid, & no one else was
around, I shouted out "Shazam!" just to see if anything would happen.

Oh who the heck am I kidding? I still try shouting it every once &
awhile...

Anyway, a new Dial "H" for Hero series, with some kid protagonists
would definately rock, especially if you do bring back the whole
concept of fans submitting their own heroes for the kids to turn
into. That could be a whole phenomenon. Not even just with little
kids, but teens & adults who would love to see one of their characters
in a comic-book, even if it's just for one issue. Also, as a writer, I
would love the challenge of coming up with a story that fits the powers
of the new heroes every issue. Or even better, finding a way to write
a story using a character that totally doesn't fit the story. Like, say
there's a burning building with nuns trapped in it or something, so
the kid dials "H-E-R-O" & turns into a superhero who can become
invisible. What's he gonna do now?

Although, if you were to try to turn it into a cartoon, you'd probably
have to stick with company-created & owned characters, due to
copyright issues, but for a print comic-book series, or even an
online series, I think it could be huge.

>> Like, say
there's a burning building with nuns trapped in it or something, so
the kid dials "H-E-R-O" & turns into a superhero who can become
invisible. What's he gonna do now? <<

This happened quite often in the original series. Robbie was very clever in finding ways to use the inappropriate powers he was stuck with, though. It was a lot of fun.

There's one (and only one) unresolved subplot remaining from the original Dial H. I would love to finish that. That would be very satisfying to about three people on the entire planet, including you and me!

Hey ... since we all have these WONDERFUL ideas, and no one is ever gonna hire us because we're just TOO talented (right?) ... why don't we just bypass this whole dying industry and make our own company instead? We can sell our stuff digitally, without printers and all the other middleman crap. There's a nice dream to ponder.

Linda
NP The Jupiter Affect/Instructions For The Two Ways Of Becoming Alice

Y'know, a few weeks back I sent my mother a superhero
series proposal that I was about to send to this company,
& she E-mailed me back that she loved it (of course) &
that if they rejected it I should find an artist & self-publish
it, & she offered to help me finance it. I'm like, I appreciate
the offer, but I don't think she realizes what all of that
entails. She doesn't know that she would probably have to
finance ME personally as well, so that I didn't have to spend
40+ hours a week at my job & could devote all of my time to
publishing (not to meantion the actual writing), but yes it is a
wonderful dream...

There's one (and only one) unresolved subplot remaining from the original Dial H. I would love to finish that. That would be very satisfying to about three people on the entire planet, including you and me!


Which subplot? I'm thinking of one, too...but I don't know if it's the same or I just missed the follow-up.


~Bob

The second time in the series that Robbie becomes Giant Boy, a villain successfully attacks him with poison gas ~ he's dying, and he dials himself back to Robbie, sending Giant Boy's body (including lungs) back to the "hero dimension". Robbie wonders what might happen, though, if he ever becomes Giant Boy again. Would that body still be afflicted by the gas if he should become that hero again? Has Giant Boy already died in that other dimension, would Robbie dial himself into an instant corpse? Remember, Robbie & Suzy have no control over who they become.

This would be a must to address! The "hero dimension" was never really explained, the whole concept itself would be great fodder for stories. Are these heroes "real sentient beings" with their own ongoing lives in their own dimension? And if so, what's the morality behind Robbie & Suzy "borrowing" their bodies ~ potentially KILLING them! ~ in order to fight villains on Earth?

Linda
NP The Jupiter Affect/Instructions For The Two Ways Of Becoming Alice

That is a fascinating question. I always figured they were just magical creations. Didn't Robby once turn into Plastic Man? That would certainly have implications on the truth behind the "hero dimension," wouldn't it?

Yep, he turned into Plastic Man, and he knew who Plastic Man was ~ I assume this was done as a promo for DC's first Plastic Man series, which started at about the same time. But you're right, it begs all kinds of questions which could have interesting answers.

 ... Linda.

"Some guys have all the luck!"

That's exactly what I was thinking of.

Brilliant minds really do think alike.

~Bob