Of course, they're not actually reading AMERICAN comics, but at least they're reading something.
Check this out:

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/arnold/article/0,9565,589081,00.html

This is worse than not reading comics at all.

My daughter loves comics. That is, she loves my old ones and all my digest reprints. There's not much new stuff I'd LET her read!

See now, I really don't understand that attitude, LB.

Personally, I'm not a Manga fan (although I do think American comics should adopt the Manga format), I've always been, & suspect I always will be, primarily a superhero fan. But if the kids today are diggin' Manga then I say, more power to 'em!

I've got a 9 year old Godbrother who've I've been
buying trade paperbacks for his birthdays & holidays.
I started with Ultimate Spider-Man & some Batman titles, because those are my 2 favorite heroes.
But he told me that he likes Superman the best. So
what I am I suposed to do? Try to force him to like
Batman & Spider-Man? Of course not,The next time I
went over I brought him the Man Of Steel tpb. Next I'm going to get him Loeb & Sales' Superman For All
Seasons tpb. If that's what he likes, then that's what I'll get him.

My mother recently told me that he's been getting into
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (I didn't even know they
were still around), so now I plan to track down some
TMNT books for him.

This remeinds me of when the Goosebumps series was in
its prime. Some educators were complaining about
them, saying that they weren't that well-written &
had improper grammer in them (similar to complaints
about Harry Potter) but I say that anything that gets
kids interested in reading books is a good thing.
It's the same thing here.

The key point for me was that 13 year old girl who
says she wants to start writing her own stories.
I think that's great!
If some young girls can get inspired by Manga the way
you were inspired as a young girl by Batgirl, then
what's the problem?

It's the equivalent of teaching music appreciation to a kid by playing her some albums by Marilyn Manson. I don't expect a little girl in 2004 to necessarily go ga-ga over Batgirl like I did (especially not the way the character is portrayed today), but I do think it's reasonable to hope for a contemporary equivalent that imparts the same things to her that were imparted to me in 1966, and what Phantom Lady (or whoever) imparted to a child in 1946, and so on. The comparison can't be extended to manga.

Okay, I'll bite.... why not? Is it because they aren't American? Is the something inheritantly bad about manga because the pacing is different?

I say pacing because that's about the only thing I can think of that's universally different than the American style in every manga I've seen.

I've read manga. There's nothing in the genre ~ aesthetically or contextually ~ which could provide the same kind of input to a child that a properly-done superhero comic can.

Manga isn't a genre, it's just the name given to comics in Japan. The variety of genres the Japanese explore vasty dwarf that which the US comics market.

Unless you can give me a reason why only Americans can make decent super-hero comics, I'm going to disagree with you on this.

{Edited because apparently I can't write a complete sentence today.)

I'm with Trevah. I hate to say it, but your attitude
sounds a bit close-minded to me, LB. I think the fact
that Manga can do romance, horror, sci-fi, & all
other types of genres is GOOD. Fantasy is fantasy,
be it Superman or Akira. Whatever happens to catch
a kids imagination is fine with me. Like I said, I
love superhero (I hope Marvel & DC don't mind me using that word) stories, but I think there's an incredibly
large audience of children out there that the American
companies, who insist of focusing on superheroes, is
ignoring. Not to mention the potential ADULT audience.

I mentioned Harry Potter & Goosebumps. Those are
fantasy stories. So if kids were reading Dr. Strange
instead of Harry Potter would that really be any
different? And when the Goosebumps series was hot
that was practically like comic-books. A new book was
out every month (for about $4.99) & kids would go to the bookstore each month to buy the latest one. The books were numbered, just like comic-book series, even though each one had brand new characters.

So I think the Manga phenomenon is a good thing. I don't think it needs to replace American superhero comics (tho I think it might if the big 2 don't wise up), but could help expand the overall comics reading
audience.

And that is what we all want, isn't it?

No, we don't all want to settle for this. If it's poor, then it's as bad as nothing. An umbrella with holes in it will leave you as soaked as carrying no umbrella at all. Manga is no substitute for real comics or the characters therein. It's no substitute for the experience of genuine comic books, of whatever genre. You asked me if this was a good thing, well, I don't think it is. It's just my opinion.

"Manga is no substitute for real comics or the characters therein. It's no substitute for the experience of genuine comic books, of whatever genre."

A statment like that, to me, is like reading a half-dozen Image comics, not liking them, and writing off every American comic that's ever been.

Ah. It's like reading a bunch of Image comics and assuming that all of Image is dross. Or, as Matt often takes Rod to task for upstairs, assuming that all of M***** is crap because he hates the books he's seen.

This assumption wouldn't account for exceptions like Invincible at Image, or The Avengers whilst Geoff Johns was writing it, and perhaps other titles. But I feel very secure in stating my overall opinion of manga ~ it's not a positive opinion ~ if there are exceptions, it doesn't change my overall opinion. If that's "closed-minded" so be it. I'm old enough that I don't need to deliberately keep forcing stuff I don't like down my own throat just to prove that I "gave it enough of a chance". Life is too short, Trev. Let me have my own opinions eh.

First of all, I hope you know that no disrespect was
intended in my last post, LB. If you don't like Manga
that's certainly your right, although I'm not sure
about your umbrella analogy. It's just that I've noticed that many longtime American comics readers
do seem to be predisposed to dislike anything that's
outside of their previous experience. I'm not saying
that's you, of course. As I've said several times,
I'm not particularly a fan of Manga either.

But it's like something else you brought up once on
"that other board." You talked about how you prefer
comics that you download on the net & save on cd-roms.
I personally can't see reading comics that way. It's
just not the same as actually holding one in your
hands. But I'm not willing to totally dismiss the
idea. I'm 31 years old. Let's face it, I should've
outgrown reading comics years ago anyway. And I only
got a computer last summer. But there are plenty of
kids out there who grew up with a computer in their
homes. So maybe for this new generation reading comics
online might feel right to them. I can certainly see
the advantages to such a thing.

Anyway, I guess we can just agree to disagree on the
Manga issue. It's just funny to me because the reason
I posted that link here, & addressed it directly to you, is because I honestly thought you'd be happy to
see it.

Oh well, not the first time I've been horribly
wrong, & I'm sure it won't be the last...

>> It's just that I've noticed that many longtime American comics readers do seem to be predisposed to dislike anything that's outside of their previous experience. I'm not saying that's you, of course. <<

That is me. I should hope that by the age of 44 I would know what I like and what I don't, what's likely to work for me and what likely won't. I like new stuff but within the parameters of taste I've already formed over four decades. I still buy as much new music as I did when I was in my teens, but you know, my current favourites sound pretty much the same as then!

There are innumerable "new things" that can be achieved within the parameters of "old school". Within the Traditions, if you will. I'm sure you've heard me wax about the Greatness That Is Byrne too often, for exactly this reason. And frankly, that's the only opening in my open mind anymore, as far as comic books go. Manga is so far outside the boundaries of what I perceive as comic books that it just doesn't work for me at all. I really do dislike the genre or style or however one should describe Manga. My honest opinion is that there's no possible life-altering benefit to a young girl, reading that stuff. There's no Batgirl, no Supergirl, no (fill in character here), no resonance, no lesson, nothing taught, nothing to serve as a goal, nothing to aspire to. It's either fluff or gruesomeness. I saw nothing else in the manga I've tried to read.

But here's my "Manga Librarian" sig to make everyone happy.

LOL... nice, sig, btw.

Thing is, manga isn't a company or a style. Saying all manga is bad isn't the equivalent to saying all Marvel or all Image is bad. It IS the equivalent as saying all American comics are bad.

But you are right, nobody forces us to explore everything. I can't stand hip hop on the basis of the crap I've heard in strip clubs. I'll probably never give hip hop a chance, no matter how many classic cds people tell me about.

And my friends are annoyed at me because in the last three years I've bought a few hundred albums, but only a half-dozen or so that weren't The Blues. Screw 'em. I know what I like.

Linda crafts her opinions carefully, and that entitles her to keep them. I must agree most American superhero readers find Japanese comics hard to appreciate.

My buddy Abby Denson (writer for POWERPUFF GIRLS at DC, JOSIE AND THE PUSSYCATS for Archie, and elsewhere) attended a convention in Japan a couple years ago. Guests were counted at over a hundred thousand. She had great success selling her self-published books. Oh, did I mention this con was for fans of independent female cartoonists?

It's a big deal over there.

Some of that Japanese stuff gets "lost in translation" not just because the language is different. There is a gap between cultures where some stuff seems to lose sense. Japanese girls find their traditional culture at odds with their modern lives, and find the comics give them vocabulary to understand stuff where tradition fails.

"LIKE WHAT???" you may scream. "Like BOYS??? Like HAMSTERS????"

Well see, you've got this Japanese middle class. And it has money to spend. And it educates its girls to read and do math and learn history. But it doesn't tell them how to be women in this contemporary world, or how to pursue love, or how to use their modern sexual power, or how to be good people.

Or when it does in movies or on TV, it teaches them this absurdly cute ("kawaii") idea, manufactured by big media, about how all girls must be cute and hop around and spend money.

So the comics allow those girls to exchange stories that include frustration, and failed romance, and tragedy, and working toward an unpopular vocation, or struggling for respect, or using and abusing power -- stuff they can't find elsewhere.

Some stories are completely cloying. Some are lame. Some are x-rated by American standards. Some are loaded with bizarre misapplications of Christian imagery. I have yet to find one that really scratches my itch.

But it clearly works for them.

And a lot of American readers really DO seem to get something out of it that they don't find elsewhere.

A lot of American TV networks seem intent on finding a Japanese cartoon marketable in the USA – perhaps thinking a foreign artform so elaborate and popular there must eventually find a viewership that appreciates it. More likely the networks will give up and turn to obscure comics properties produced underground her in the USA. New York City is home to a few generations of female underground cartoonists trying to make comics that speak to their lives. MOCCA is lush with ‘em! Eventually one or two will make it to Adult Swim, and perhaps succeed. The success of the Japanese cartoons shows there's a market for a good alternative to superheroes.

<< edited to note Linda is entitled to her opinion, well crafted or not. Still, note that the fine craftsmanship makes me not want to argue.>>

Yeah, what he said.

A woman I work with has a daughter who wants to draw comics so she showed me a couple pages. She's trying to draw in the manga style and being a novice she isn't very good (yet). I wish her luck, but I wish she'd take on actual anatomy before the stylized version -- putting a comma on somebody's face isn't the same thing as knowing how to draw a nose. I'm trying to get her mom to tell her about establishing shots, too. It IS nice to see a girl interested in this kind of thing. I thought I'd introduce her to Leave It To Chance, to show her a good comic, appropriate for her age, cartoony but still well drawn.

I love LEAVE IT TO CHANCE.

How happy a world where Japanese animation may lead your young friend to LITC!

There are lots of Japanese styles, some more anatomically representative than others -- but I agree the copying of Japanese cartoons would be a screwy path toward good draftsmanship. Most Japanese cartoonists use extreme shorthand -- in part to maximize cartoony expression, in part to make everything simple and elegant and cute. (May those who understand Japanese culture forgive me for summing up everything so brutally.)

To develop technical drafting skill or close knowledge of human anatomy by copying Japanese comics -- it seems to me -- would be like developing spelling skills by copying a dictionary of abbreviations. The underlying structure, although perhaps in the minds of the artist/writer, just isn't always there on the page to be copied.

Similarly, I LOVE the simple grace of JB and Mr. Ditko's art. Their knowledge of anatomy can't be doubted. But they both use simplification to make the action clearer. As a result, they aren't always the best place to study anatomy -- at least not until you know the physical realities (the real shapes of bone and muscles, and how they connect and flex) that the artists are representing.

Remember 1983, when shops were full of crappy b/w books by people who "taught" themselves to draw by copying John Byrne? They didn't have John's knowledge of structure and function, so the bodies looked "wonky" and lifeless and screwy. John Byrne's figures never look wonky, lifeless or screwy!!

Same goes for many Japanese styles. The informed artist really can make convincing figures that have elegance and weight and animation. The second-rate artist who copies the first simply shows his or her own ignorance.

"I can't stand hip hop on the basis of the crap I've heard in strip clubs."

Wait a minute, they play music in strip clubs?

Funny, I never noticed...

If you can call it that. Every once and a while you'll get some redneck biker chick from the boondocks with a cobra tatoo dancing to something good, but most of the time it's bleech-blonde bimbos dancing to Snoop or Aguilara...