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AOD 460 Swap

January 4 2008 at 3:36 AM
  (Login 1968_Falcon)
from IP address 137.186.231.245

 
Allright.. I've looked at a couple of 460 AOD swap setups.

One is an adaptor plate.
the other is a replacement bell.

Here's a bucks down - "Cost effective idea"

How hard is it to get the AOD converter to mate to the stock C4 flexplate? They're the same beast on 351W trucks if i'm not mistaken.

I'm thinking 351M/400 C4 Bell Housing, then modify the C4 Flex plate for big block hub and bolt pattern. then use the AOD converter. then saw off the AOD bell and use a small plate between the C4 Bell and the AOD to make it all go. The AOD converter should be ~5/8 taller? so that sorts it out right?

When given a $700 answer a $100 answer has to exist.

Your thoughts?


John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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AuthorReply
Silverfox
(no login)
204.246.216.15

Re: AOD 460 Swap

January 4 2008, 10:24 AM 

Hmmm......

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
137.186.231.245

FMX Bell too

January 4 2008, 7:25 PM 

I have a 400/460 FMX Bell too.

there is no reason why the adaptor plate wouldn't work there either. hmmm.

I have a spare flexplate and AOD sitting in my hoard.

This can't be that hard!





John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
137.186.231.245

Flexplate

January 4 2008, 11:05 PM 

Hollander 409-416

GRAND MARQUIS 80 A.T.; C4, FMX and AOD
The same Flex plate for all three trasmissions!!!
this has got to be easy!

And this converter.
407-371 FD $244
Ident: 14A, 15A, 22A
Ident: 42A, 7A
CROWN VICTORIA 83-90 8-351W (5.8L)
GRAND MARQUIS 80 8-351W, AOD trans
GRAND MARQUIS 81-86 8-351W (5.8L)
LTD 80 8-351W, AOD trans
LTD 81-82 8-351W (5.8L)
LINCOLN & TOWN CAR 80 8-351W
LINCOLN MARK SERIES 80 8-351W

Use the FMX bell and i should be 90% there.

Are there differences between early and late converters??? Does anyone have an application list? or dimensions?






John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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(Login stuart40a)
Forum Moderator
142.165.145.207

Problem

January 5 2008, 9:25 AM 

The only biter could be proper alignment.

Getting the 5 pieces to line up properly could take some experimenting.

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
137.186.231.245

alignment.

January 5 2008, 3:48 PM 

Axially all i need is +/- .005 and i should be able to get within .003 because the bell has a centerbore hole and the AOD pump is concentric to the input. I can turn the majority of this project on a brake lathe. I don't know if i have to turn the front face off on the pump to a smooth, flat indexing point for the adaptor. Lengthwise +/- .200 should get me there.

If anyone has ever cut the front bell end off of an AOD please send me info on pump mods and or where it was cut. Pictures are good too. thanks.

John



John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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Silverfox
(no login)
204.246.216.15

Re: alignment.

January 7 2008, 9:52 AM 

i have plans too.
I have a guy on my list that wants a 4R70W to 460.
Our issue is that we need 1" extra bell to accomidate the 4R converter....however the AOD bell should work.

I have the AOD core here, and plan on cutting the bell off soon. I will take lots of pics and have them on the clickclickracing site.

I am game to try your idea though. Only issue I see is FINDING bells...I have none....but I do have C4 164t bell.

Basicaly IMHO, if you can MATCH the distance the converter stud lands measure from the outside of the bell - who cares what bell you installed - that solves depth issue.

Not being TRUE to center would be tough.
The AOD/AODE/4R have a single pump bolt in the middle top...if you had a bolt that was middle top in a FMX/C4 bell then it would surely be pretty dang close.

WIth the JW bell availabel in SFI for to bolt to the AOD for $300, I think the hardest part would be the case machine work, the rest is bolt on.

With your idea, it could potentially be a cheaper, REPEATABLE option that could bring a whole new LIFE to AOD/4R.

With the AODE/4R though we need some more bell housing though...so a machined spacer would be in order.

I am worried about pump bolt holes though....with too much power I hope they can hold up being longer as they will be AND supporting the trans where they did not before or desiged to do.

 
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(Login stuart40a)
Forum Moderator
142.165.145.207

Interesting

January 7 2008, 11:10 AM 

If the bell is getting changed and are scarce, what about one from a standard transmission?

The convertor could not care less what it lived in and there may be more of them around.

 
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Silverfox
(no login)
204.246.216.15

Re: Interesting

January 7 2008, 1:51 PM 

Very good point!
But what has removale SMF bell that is plentiful? Besides t5

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
137.186.231.245

Re: Interesting

January 7 2008, 7:25 PM 

240, 300 CID truck

94+ 3.8 V6 t5 mustangs.. and the bell is deeper if i'm not mistaken.

John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
137.186.231.245

bell options.

January 7 2008, 7:24 PM 

I have the 460 CID F250 Manual bell housing in my hoard too. If we consider the shock loading effects of the clutch, i'd have to admit that it's probably stronger than any Auto bell going. They are also purported to have 'fragile ears' that hold the slave cylinder in place at 8:00 ( low drivers side ) I found a good one at the local self serve yard for $40 or so but a junker with the ears busted off might make for an easy answer.

What i really like about the FMX/BW12/(Cruiso?)-- Bellhousing plan of attack is that one spacer design may suffice for all 385 series, and all FE series, AOD swaps, maybe flatheads too??.. And as you said, It's repeatable. If we find one guy with a CNC machine that's a bored ford enthusiast, it's over.. maybe even $50 a pop, but we never have a good enough excuse to put a Generic Mush transmission in our blue ovals ever again..

AODE might work with a thicker spacer or just another 3/8 as a block plate. I'll measure up the FMX/BW12 385 series bell and or the truck one and post some numbers for you.

If they can make a SFI Bell that bolts to the pump blots of an AOD this really ought to work out as far as strength goes. It's the indexing hole that carries all the loads except torsional.

Turn the spacer plate blank on a lathe ( a brake lathe might even work ) to get your index holes concentric and your thickness spot on, locate your trans holes with a set of transfer punches. drill and fit the plate to the trans. line up level and the horizontal bell housing blot holes on the bench. Transfer your bell, bolt 'er up, then carve off any scrap.



John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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(Login stuart40a)
Forum Moderator
142.165.145.207

and

January 7 2008, 11:57 PM 

Scatter shields should be available too.

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
70.72.58.140

Bell Housing Data -- Update

January 20 2008, 1:42 AM 

Ford 351M/400 FMX Bell Cast: D3AP-7976-AA
Bore: 5 7/8"
Depth: 7"

Ford F250 Manual trans 460 CID Cast: E4TA 7505 CA is stamped not cast
Bore: 4 7/8"
Depth: 6 3/4"

66 Galaxie 390 GT 11.5" clutch Toploader Bell Cast: C5AA 6394 A
Bore: 4 7/8"
Depth: 6 7/16"

80s ford truck Manual trans. Cast: E0TA 7505 FB
Bore: 4 7/8"
Depth: 6 1/4"


the latter three have a toploader bolt pattern.
The FMX Bell makes an attractive candidate for the 4R70W / 460 Swap.
Keep going!!




John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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Silverfox
(no login)
204.246.216.15

Re: Bell Housing Data -- Update

January 21 2008, 8:35 AM 

Where were you measuring from?

As for the 4R swap, got thinking, and I am sure the FMX does not have the same pump bolt pattern as the 4R, that means there would need to be a special machined adapter, and if I did that...2 things.
1) would the torque converter even fit with the pump cover possibly hitting the inside of the bell....
2) if I went to the work to do the machine work, I would just assume use the best smallest, most available, possibly SFI approved bell - - like the C4.

The idea is still plenty valid for the AOD possibly.

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
198.53.189.30

measuring and adaptor plate

January 21 2008, 1:00 PM 

I measured the diameter of the bore of the indexing hole of the bell housing with a tape measure. Then i put the bell on the floor engine side down and measured to the transmission mating surface.

All you need to do is calculate the converter location with respect to the transmission and make an adaptor plate the right thickness. it also has to have concentric steps, one to index into the bell and one that indexes to the pump on the transmission. Make the spacer the right thickness and of excessive diameter. Use transfer punches to pick up your bolt locations on the bell and your transmission to your adaptor plate and drill the holes in your adaptor to the bolt clearance diameter.

the bolts locate the transmission radially, the spacer longitudinally, and the indexing steps concentrically.

I'll make the prototype out of wood if need be. I could do this with $600 SFI stuff but backyardin', brake lathes and beer money is more fun.

If you're nervous about the strength of the pump bolts, give me the bolt diameter, quantity and grade of the bolts and radius of the bolt circle ( pump centre to bolt centre ) i'll run some math and tell you what engine torque they shear off at.

Cheers.



John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
198.53.189.30

4R pump diameter?

January 21 2008, 1:16 PM 

Can you tell me the OD of the 4R70W pump. I'm hoping it's smaller than the FMX bell bore. it's not critical but it may help.

the machined adaptor is inevitable but the blank can be cut on a brake lathe.

An indexing step may need to be cut in the front of the pump to locate it. Can you take one bolt out of your 4R70W pump, put a rigid straight edge (inch square box stock, hockey stick, or metal desk/table leg) across the bell-motor mating surface and measure the distance from the bell surface to the bolt seat ( where the back of the bolt head touches the pump) ?

That will tell me everything except torque converter clearance. thanks,

John


John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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Silverfox
(no login)
204.246.216.15

Re: 4R pump diameter?

January 21 2008, 3:25 PM 

i will tell you the
-Distance from Bell face to pump face (bolt)
I am almost CURTAIN that the 4R pump and AOD pump are the same diameter.
I am almost CURTAIN that the 4R pump has the same bolt pattern as the AOD

THere is a rumored mod of the AOD stator in the 4R pump allowing the one peice shaft. So there is another almost curtain.

ANd pardon my ignorance, but I have never used or heard of the INDEX hole.

The pump would MOST curtainly need to be machined as well on the AOD/AODE/4R, as each pump bolt rests in a small machined flat area. Being the 4R pump is aluminum...that wouldn't e too bad of a task.

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
198.53.189.30

Index hole.

January 22 2008, 11:39 PM 

I'm talking about the large diameter hole in the bell that the front of the trans slips into. It mates with the input shaft bearing retainer on a manual trans and with the front pump on an FMX or cruiso. that's the bore that indexes the the nose of the trans to the crank. You can fine tune it with offset dowel pins. Once i have the depth measurements from you i'll draw it up.

thanks,

John

John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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Silverfox
(no login)
204.246.216.15

Re: Index hole.

January 23 2008, 8:46 AM 

As of last night, the 4R pump and the AOD pump are quite different with drilled passeges and ONE bolt hole is adjusted about 1/2".

not a concern with this project though.

 
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(Login 1968_Falcon)
198.53.189.30

blot adjusted 1/2"

January 23 2008, 1:00 PM 

Are you saying the bolt is 'clocked' differently? (at a different place in the circle)

If you have an AOD and a 4R handy can you take the measurement for both transmissions? (bolt seat to engine side of the bell) That would be great.

My AOD is at the bottom of my 'transmission stack'

Thanks

John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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john
(Login 1968_Falcon)
198.53.189.30

Mustang II bellhousing

March 25 2008, 9:10 PM 

8" deep. ( wow )

d6Z something..

John Johnson BEng
1968 Falcon Futura Sports Coupe
460 Test Mule C6 3.70:1
Under Construction

 
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