The third installment of the Jay Marshall estate is being held today.
They have a pair of Hamburg 8's with rectangular keyhole and are advertising
them as Houdini's. Jay included a note on where he obtained them (Bennett)
and was told they were Houdini's. After checking with a few friends
they can be dated to Houdini's lifetime via a 1923 photo, but not with
Houdini in them but another escape artist. And, those pair had the
horseshoe-shaped keyhole. Anyway, they just sold for $5000.
People must not know a lot about handcuffs!
John

Hi John, what is the earliest date you have for Hamburg eights, adverts etc?

Ian

The earliest mention in an ad in in a magic magazine form 1928. A friend
and collector has a photo, of an escape artist other than Houdini, hand dated
and signed 1923. It's the round keyway. The patent for this model of Hamburg 8
was applied for in 1931, and granted in 1933. Is it possible the handwritten
date on the photo was 1928, and not 1923??? I've asked that question and am
awaiting a response. The Hamburg 8 that sold is the flat key model. In my
humble opinion, I would think the flat and fluted keyways came later, although
no evidence supports this. Again, for such a great and fantastic escape cuff,
if it existed during Houdini's lifetime he probably would have had one, and photos would exist of him, or a display board, with one. The only Houdini boards showing a Hamburg 8 with Houdini providance are the Dunninger boards used in the 1951 Houdini movie, and it's pretty well known Dunninger put those together. Again, further research is needed, but we'd all like to think Hamburg 8's were around late in Houdini's career, just no definite evidence to support it. John

I am absolutely convinced that the Hamburg 8 in the Marshall sale was a genuine Houdini owned handcuff.
I believe this cuff is a Houdini cuff because Dr. Zina Bennett (1891-1965) was a great man and a straight arrow. An Army surgeon in WW1, he taught magic to soldiers to rehabilitate their hands. If Zina Bennett said the cuff belonged to Houdini--case closed.
Forget that I believe it was Houdini's modified Hamburg 8, Jay Marshall believed the cuff belonged to Houdini. The very fact that Jay showed it to a few people and said it was a Houdini cuff not only goes a long way with me, it goes all the way with me.
Joe Fox found a 1923 photo of Gene Kolar with a Hamburg 8. Kolar was a Houdini disciple and operative.
Putting some flesh and blood on it, know what I did the first time I saw a modified Hamburg 8? I bought it. $8.50 from Joe Berg. That would be about a hundred bucks now and I was a high school kid. I think Houdini did the same thing, he saw the cuff and acquired at least two.
John Hinson, Harry and Bessie Houdini's great-nephew owns a modified Hamburg 8 that has been in the Hinson family since Houdini owned it.
All the Houdini handcuff display boards were made much earlier in Houdini's career. I shouldn't think he would put any "modified" cuffs on the boards since those were useful for his stage work. There is no way this cuff could ever have been on one of those boards.
As a historian, I accept the Bennett/Marshall and the Hinson Cuffs as genuine Houdini handcuffs. My question is: who modified them? Also, who is the originator of that modification?
I have seen a lot of fake Houdini props over the years and I have seen many real ones. I am convinced this cuff is the real thing.
I think there is a photo of Dr. Zina Bennett showing this cuff to Blackstone Sr.

Hello Pat,
While still not convinced positively this model, with flat keyway, was around
during Houdini's lifetime, the answer to who modified these early hamburg 8's may be answered??? Early Linking ring magazines, as early as 1928, advertised the "new spirit cuff", picturing a Hamburg 8, and advertised by
Trudel. Could it have been Trudel who started modifying and selling these?
soneone sent me a copy of this ad last night. Stan also sent me an Austrian
patent for the Hamburg 8, dated 1933, and applied for in 1931. Of course, they could have manufactured the cuff for years prior to patenting it.
And, there could be other patents from Germany, or another country, that pre-date this patent.
John

Hi Patrick, I am happier to go with dated material, ie patents and adverts than the 'straight arrow' word of a man.

I have heard too many stories from people to know that not all that they say is truth.

Ian

If Joe Fox was correct in telling me that he found a photo of the magician escape artist Kolar with a Hamburg 8 dated 1923, that should help clarify things.
Everybody know what very famous standard magic trick Kolar invented?
Clippo.
Houdini advises would be handcuff kings to put together a board with the oldest, rustiest cuffs and locks they can find.
While he would occasionally dust off the challenge handcuff act, he stopped performing it as his regular feature in 1908 and all the display boards that I know of date from that period.
Dr. Zina Bennett is an important figure in magic history.
MagicPedia says this about him:

"Dr. Zina Bennett (Oct 30, 1891- July 2, 1965), a physician/surgeon that achieved an international reputation from Detroit, Michigan. He was noted for his manipulation routine with jumbo cards. Inventor of the ZinaB Deck, a special manipulation deck.
"Zina married Susy Wandas August, 1959 in Brussells.
"During World War I, Dr. Bennett served with the Medical Corps, first at the Army Medical School in Washington, D. C. and later at Camp Gordon in Atlanta, Ga. Dr. Bennett designed many magic effects as a means of applying physiotherapy and he aided many service men with injured hands to regain normal dexterity.
"Zina was perhaps the most social magician of his time. At one time he told me he held memberships in 198 different magic clubs. His greatest enthusiasm was writing to sick members. He was well known for writing thousands of letters all over the world, and visiting as many as he could too. When he was in his prime, it was not unusual for him to write upwards of 50 letters a day to magicians the world over.
"He has served as vice-president of the Society of Detroit Magicians, and was first president of Harry E. Cecil IBM Ring number 22. Dr. Bennett wrote the column in the Linking Ring magazine entitled Prescription (1941-1948). He was also on the cover in the March 1943 issue.
"He was a Freemason and with Felix Korim was responsible for the initiation of the Invisible Lodge."

I personally know of two modified Hamburg 8s that have been in unbroken chains of custody since Houdini owned them. Those are: the cuff we are discussing and the one currently owned by John Hinson.
It would only make sense to start looking for Hamburg 8s circa 1923.
The remonstrance on the two known Houdini Hamburg 8s is as good as any I know of on any cuffs except for those that actually have the original receipts or work orders. An unbroken chain of custody in each case.
The fact that John has discovered a Trudel ad for Hamburg 8s as a spirit cuff ca 1928 certainly puts the cuff closer to Houdini's time than the 31 or 33 patent dates.
How long might the Hamburg 8s have been around before Trudel advertised them as spirit cuffs?
If Kolar had a Hamburg 8 in 23, that's as good as Houdini having one because Kolar was one of Houdini's boys, a handcuff worker, magician and one of Houdini's psychic investigators.
Finally, you can't confuse Jay Marshall and Dr. Zina Bennett with people who would arbitrarily call a cuff a Houdini cuff in order to boost its value. I knew Jay for 35 years and he was an extremely dedicated historian. He would never promote a lie about magic history. Not deliberately.

I would agree that the Hamburg eight last century but I would be happier to see that Houdini did at least have one photo of it on his boards. Houdini hasn't ementioned it in his Handcuff Secrets, but mentions others which there are also no photos of on his board.

I guess it might come down to who made the cuffs and what models.

I would say that the unique round key ( some call it horseshoe ) shaped keyhole as pictured in the Kolar photo is the oldest and first model. I don't however go with the date of 1923. It appears 5 years earlier than the first advert date and may have been written years after as someone tried to remeber what year a particlualr photo was from.

The rectangular key model should have been next and then the fluted keyhole (circa 1960's until being discontinued, late 1970's)

The rarest of the Hamburg eights is the side keyhole model.

John Hinson had the rare French handcuff with letter lock which we know belonged to houdini and there are photo of him (Houdini) with it.Only one original exists but there is nothing to say that at any stage a Hamburg eight came into the family and is now said to be Houdini's. The Hamburg eight would have been a common and novel items anyone might have bought.

Sid Radner who bought 'some' handcuffs from Hardeen. These cuffs are claimed to be Houdini's but no-one will ever know for certain. I am told by a very reliable source with a link to the Houdini family that Hardeen just bought old handcuffs to sell to Sid. It is alleged that Sid was heard to say " ANY handcuffs that pass through my hands... belonged to Houdini"

Suggesting that just becasue he was know to own some (possible ) Houdini items and any cuff he sold may be any Houdini cuff.

Example, Some one is know to have bought Houdini's own tower handcuffs. This person is know by many to have purcahsed them. Then years later a pair of Tower handcuffs comes up for sale. Question, is it the same pair or has this person bought another pair.

Several years back some of Sid's cuffs were removed from sale as they weren't of Houdini time and patented after 1928. So this type of thing does happen.

Food for thought.

Ian

PS, can our Europeans friends help out here?

Hello everyone,

the only Hamburg 8 patent I know is the one mentioned by John, which was issued in 1933.

Although the German patent database is easily to handle, its results are not completely reliable. So, it may happen that a patent is not found, although the correct search term is used. Even if the name of the inventor is known and used for the search, it may be that the correct result does not show up, and that the patent can only be found when the correct patent number is put into the system. I will have to write to the German Patent Office in the next days anyway and will ask them about this issue.

Besides this I have no documents that could help in this matter.

best wishes,

Michael

Hello everyone,
First, I greatly respect those that have posted on this thread.
Pat's knowledge is vast, and I 100% agree that Jay Marshall was an honest
and true historian. Pat, thanks for info on Zina, all information I didn't
know, and likewise agree with you. And, like Ian, I'm looking for proof positive (via photo, or ad, or in writing) the Hamburg 8 (flat-key version) existed during Houdini's lifetime. Here is what I know:

Two photos exist; Both show same pose, Kolar with round-shaped keyway
version of Hamburg 8. One dated 1923, and one 1924. Patent papers on this model say 1931 & 1933. It's very possible the cuff was in production for several years before being patented.

Flat key version probably came next, before the fluted key model. But when? Trudel ads place it as "new" (new as in a gaffed version advertised as a
spirit cuff) as early as 1928.

So, my current conclusions are the cuff WAS around during Harry's lifetime, at least in round, (I'll call it circular) shaped keyway. Flat key version (one sold in jay marshall auction) existed at least within a few years of Houdini dying.

Pat--Any chance of findout out which keyway Hinson's Hamburg 8 is??
Is is the round (or circular keyway), or the flat key version?

THANKS to all who have posted. I enjoy putting our knowledge together and attempting to solve these little mysteries. Thanks to those who have sent me photos/ads/patent paper links etc....
Joe Fox, Pat Culliton, Stan Willis, Fred Pittella...
Now, who made the Guiteau and when? (just kidding)
Anyone out there with early mentions, ads, photos, etc... of Hamburg 8's please help us out.
John

Is the 1924 photo inscribed to W.W. Durbin?

Hi Kevin,
Yes, inscribed to Durbin. Is it yours? Any chance you could post it?
It clearly shows the circular keyhole model of the hamburg 8.
John

I know of some photos of Houdini's handcuff boards, but, I am not sure any of those boards still exist. I'm pretty sure the boards which are in the S.A.M. hall of fame date to the mid thirties although one of them contains some precious Houdini Cuffs--the Russian Manacle, for one.
The boards which were in Niagara date to the 1953 movie.
I mentioned this before, Houdini recommended creating such displays, but with the "oldest, rustiest cuffs and locks you can find."
Note to Ian: I can't believe you are trying to cast doubt on the Hinson Hamburg 8. You haven't seen it, you haven't spoken to the owner, you don't know its manufacture date, but, (I'm assuming you have now seen the Kolar photo signed in ink "1924" and showing that 8 with the unique keyhole) there is no question at all that the Hamburg 8 was in America well before Houdini died and one of his associates had one
I think that now that this discussion has begun, more data will come to light.
I don't think anyone has been consulted more than I about real and unreal Houdini items.
It's harder than ever because most of the time I have to tell the owners or the potential owners that the evidence isn't there.
From my point of view, the provenance on the Bennett/Marshall and the Hinson Hamburg 8s is extremely good.
I recommend that instead of trying to prove a negative, we should accept these Hamburg 8s and try to learn how they might have come to Houdini. If we accept the cuffs as genuine (at least, conditionally)--we might learn more.

This is a very interesting topic, indeed.

Ole Harry Houdini - STILL has us talking & debating about him!
________________________________________________________________________

Here's what I call the 5 different key/keyholes, to avoid confusion:


1. "Horse-shoe" or "half-moon" keyway model.

2. Flat-key/straight keyhole model.

3. Fluted key/keyhole model.

4. Solid round tapered key (round keyhole).

5. Side-keyhole model. (rare!)
________________________________________________________________________

Would love to see photos of #4 and #5 above - of the actual cuffs and/or keys.

I've attached pictures I have of the Hamburg 8 with side keyhole. It is not in my collection.
Stan

Thank you Stan for the "side-key" photos!
__________________________________________________________________________

Next thing to do: Get a definitive listing of the chronological-order of the various Ham 8 models.

Which is older: "side-key"; "horse-shoe", or "round key"???

Of course, the "flat-key" and "fluted-key" are later models.

That side key example is very nice! I appreciate seeing a picture of it again! I have seen these in person and held them but its been a while since I have seen them. They are about as rare as the folding cuff that takes almost the same key. It is believed that they came from the Dick Norman Collection.
I have also seen the rare horseshoe key version but am in the dark about the round key version. Can anyone post a pic of a round key?
Thanks in advance
L

There is another Hamburg 8 variation....but it is a stretch of the imagination.
The famous Number 68 cuff from the Radner auction.
It does not quite look like a Hamburg, but it sure operates like one
L

CORRECTION...
That should have been #61 ---not 68!
L

John,

I'll send you the images and you can post them here.

Hi Lindsay:
I own the folding cuff that uses the same key. If I post the picture here it would just confuse things. I am curious as to when you saw these cuffs. Was the Hamburg 8 with the current owner or before ? We were never told what collection these came from, and the Hamburg 8 is on the web site that shows an unknown collection. Your information that they both came from the Dick Norman Collection is the first time I've heard this.
Thanks.
Stan

i hate to say it because the knowledge is very good for the collector, but some of you are not saying it like things should be said... i really don't know & either do any of you, but there were PROBABLY only TWO -- FACTORY -- issued HAMBURG 8 cuffs.... more then likely ALL the rest were made in very few numbers & made or CHANGED by the likes of general people etc etc..... so MAYBE some of you should restate or clarify what you say when you speak of ODDBALL items.... if you don't, then NOVICE collectors & long time collectors are BEING misinformed & will believe that in fact that there are 5 - 8 ?? REAL variations & there are NOT.... same goes for other types of cuffs etc.... just my view..... joe

Here is a picture of a box that a rectangular key hamburg 8 came in. Note that the key and keyhole in the picture are round, and the cuff body is a lot different from the cuffs I've seen.
Stan

Here are photos of 3 Hamburg 8's. The one on right I made from brass castings
Ian McColl had done (this is the one I silver soldered on the cap, and locked them on before cutting the keyhole. Not gaffed. Quite the delemma!)
The middle one belonged to Harry Blackstone Sr., and is gaffed, flat key model.
The one on the left is what I believe is the earliest one I have, flat key model, and quite different from most Hamburg 8's I've seen. Notice the flat
inside of bows, and much more rounded outside of bows. Small in size too.
Anyone else have one similar to this? John

Hi Patrick, I conceed I was incorrect in the case of the Kolar photo. The photo I was given had a date of 1923 written with a sharpie in the top left corner ( a highlighted note of the early date for my attention)

I then looked for the cuff and focused on that, It wasn't until yesterday I notice in the bottom right hand corner of the photo was the signature and date of 1923. I stand corrected, the horseshoe keyhole hamburg eight can be dated to 1923 (Houdini's time)

However the Hamburg eight sold and described at the being of this thread by John, state the cuff sold was a rectangular keyhole cuff.

I don't believe this cuff was made during Houdini's time and couldn't have been owned by him.

The discussion seems to emotive as there is a vested interested in suggesting that the cuff sold was actually Houdini's. I don't belive it was and in my mind there is no proof.

There are several cuffs out there which I know are handmade fantasy cuffs. The owners of these cuffs have an emotional stake in their purchases and go out of their way to suggest real linage ie factory built prototypes and first run models etc.

Unless this hamburg eight had the same keyhole as the one in the Kolar photo, I wouldn't suggest it had anything to do with Houdini.

Ian

well i might as well give my views on this..... my late father in law PRYNCE WHEELER purchased the remaining 1,200 pair of HAMBURG 8 handcuffs from the maker/small shop factory in the late 1960's - early 70's ( i have the invoice's etc somewhere around here) ..... there were TWO (2) models - the FLUTED keyway & the STRAIGHT keyway & the BOXES where all the same as what STAN shows ... so there should be 100's of them out there in collections as i myself sold a few hundred sets mint in box.. joe

That term; emotional state' says a lot about the issue.
My Bean prison cuffs were pulled from a display board for the Great Wilcox, but this doesn't prove that he used them for anything other than a piece on a display. They work, but I have not found any type of gimmick on them, so I doubt that they were used in the act. Just a display piece. I can live with that.
Right now they are the only pair of Bean prison cuffs that I have, so I can't confuse them at some point.
But what if I picked up several other Beans in the future and never get around to labeling the Wilcox cuffs. At some point someone from Wilcox's family seeks them out and they see me pull them out of a wicker basket full of other Beans....don't they have a right to be suspicious? I know I would be.
As Culliton has pointed out there is a lot of Houdini material out there that isn't supported for authenticity.
My Kolar photo with him wearing the Hamberg 8s is from the 20,s but autographed and sent in 1943.

Hello everyone,
I've sure enjoyed this bit of excitement and trying to answer a question we've
all wondered about. I'm posting several photos, sent to me by Fred P.
He's too busy digging around his collection to post, so here it goes.
He's sent photos of two Hamburg 8's, a Flat key and fluted key.
Then, he found a postcard of a German escape duo, with a Hamburg 8 on their
display board. The rear is dated July 28th, 1915. Also found by Fred,
is a YOUNG Kolar, as young or even younger, than the 1923-24 photos, wearing
a flat key Hamburg 8. I've blown up the cuff, and it's very clear.
So, I believe this is conclusive evidence the flat, and circular keyway
Hamburg 8's were around during Houdini's lifetime. Best Wishes, and thanks
to all for an enjoyable thread. What's next???

Hi Bruce, I have a pair of Bean Giant supposed to be Houdini's and I have three letters to suggest that they are, the first is from Sid Radner saying that he bought them from Hardeen and that Hardeen said they belonged to Houdini. However, I would have preferred a letter from Houdini to Hardeen and then a letter from hardeen to Sid.

How often to we see just singular keys coming up for sale that beonged to Houdini?

Ian
PS John, could you take a photo of your three cuffs showing the keyholes?
Also the way the top cap with keyhole is palced on the cuff denotes different manufacturers.

Thanks for the great detective work. I am sold, I now see a rectangular keyhole early Hamburg eight. I am thrilled that so many have come together to solve this mystery.

Special thanks to Fred and John. The quest is over and I have learnt a lot.

Ian

Wow, thats the Kolar photo I have signed in 1943.

Joe Tanner does bring up a legit point about being aware of "special-made" or "one-of-a-kind" variations -
that aren't commercially-made.

...that MIGHT be the case with the rare "side keyhole" model.

________________________________________________________

I think we can factually state now that the following 3 models were commercially-made:

"Horse-shoe" model (as per the Kolar photos; and the 1931/33 Patent papers). It's also on the Dunninger-"Houdini film" display board - p. 168 - of Randi-Sugar Houdini book. Plus, other photos of the this cuff & key are known.

Both "flat" and "Fluted" models. No question about them.
_________________________________________________________

Now, the "tapered round key" model - the ONLY evidence so far - is the illustration on the BOXES that both Stan & Joe T. mention above. Anyone have or seen this version? It's existence remains questionable.

Hi Joe,
More information: I have a postcard, and again Fred pointed it out to me,
that a Hamburg 8 appears on the Nugent postcard, which it does (I checked mine too) as number 9, in the upper right corner of the card. Nugent's collection went to Dick Wresch, so I checked my Wresch book. Yes, it's pictured three times, twice on a board, and once in close-up shot on about page 31. Spoke to Joe Tanner and he said "most" of the cuffs with keys on the board the keys were next to the cuff it belonged to. The picture in Wresch appears to be a round key, but not a half-round. I guess this is what you would call the "tapered" key Joe?? Again, no guarantee this is for that Hamburg 8, but look at Stan's box. The key on the box is similar to the key on the board. Again, Joe Tanner said his father-in-law bought
the last 1200 pair of Hamburg 8's from the small shop that made them (I'm guessing in Germany). When Joe took over he still had a few hundred left,
and they were ALL in the boxes, being the same as Stan's box. All the cuffs Joe sold were flat or fluted key cuffs, but in the box Stan has. So, existence of a tapered, or 100% round key, Hamburg 8 remains in question.
If someone has one we'd love to see a photo.
John

Also, the photo of Fred's stuff above includes a photo of four keys, each for a Hamburg 8. The fluted key, original flat key, another version of the
flat key (This key I found pictured with a "New Escape handcuff" in Heany magic Catalog #24). Different manufactuers easily could have had different
keys made. The key on the right is for the horseshoe shaped Hamburg 8.

Regarding the key on the right, the "horseshoe" key pictured...

Does anyone actually have the cuff this key is presumed to fit?

I ask becuase there is a version of a vintage German made padlock that has a horseshoe shaped keyhole and takes a key just like this.

Are we certain this key pictured is actually a handcuff key and not a padlock key?

Steve Santini

great great work by all !!! i do not read GERMAN, but i will throw another question for all to wonder about.... on the box above, why does it have NO 5 ?????? what does that stand for ???? the FIFTH model or what.... if it is just a number, i would have thought that the number would be an 8 .... joe

Steve,

I have seen the Hamburg 8's that the key on the right fits.
The owner of the cuff is believed to still own it.
It has not been gaffed and is in very good condition.
L

Here is the Kolar / Durbin Photo. Enjoy.

To know there is a Hamburg 8 whose keyway matches that of a German padlock design.

For any interested in checking this out please consult:

The Padlock Collector / Sixth edition by Franklin M. Arnall

Page 152

Category: Iron Lever

Padlocks numbered 37 and 38 stamped DGRM.

Steve Santini

Hi again,

here some more pics of this cuff. They come from an ebay auction a while back.

best wishes,

Michael

Hi,

Yes this is the exact cuff that I saw and have had the opportunity to get locked up in.
It is safe in a nice collection west of the Mississippi.
L

Hi, intestingly the Kolar photos show two different date, one 1923 and the other 1924.

The frame of the Hamburg 8 with horseshoe keyhole is beefier than the regular cuff. I suspect that two or more maker were invloved in the production of the Hamburg eight.

The weakness I can see in the horseshoe variant, is that the centre section could be easily forced upward giving access to the locking bolt. This might be why there are fewer of these cuffs.

Ian

Here is an old Heaney Magic Co. ad from #24 catalog.
It shows the unusual key pictured above. John

The 8's do not appear in the Heany catalog #25. However, they list just about everything else from the milk can, thumbcuffs (look like Towers but don't say so $4.50), Bean-Cobbs, all the Towers, and Giant Beans. Several other escape were also offered.

I remember when I got this catalog in the mid 1950's and tried to order several of the cuffs. They sent me a letter stating the cuffs were no longer available and sent a much smaller catalog #30. Most of the items no longer appeared in the #30 catalog.

Ron

Could any of our German friends please help me with the translation of this.....

Fesselzangen
( neue verbbesserte Ausfhrung )
Bequemer und schneller zu handhaben, als alle bishe4r in den Handel gebrachten Fesseizangen, nur nach einer Seite zu öffnen und nur mit einem sicher wirkenden Verschluss.

Wenn zuammengeklappt auch ohne Schssel zu öffnen. also fertig zum Gebrauch und ohne Schssel verschliessbar. Wenn im Gebrauch, ist ein Oeffnen nur mit dem Schssel möglich.
Fein geschliffen und vernickelt mit Schssel

...................................
I am especially looking for a correct meaning for these words, which bablefish cannot give me.


Ausfhrung
Fesseizangen
zuammengeklappt
Schssel

thank you

Ian

The second part of it basically states that these are ready to use even when locked and can be opened without the key and are ready to use but when locked on can only be opened with the key. Nickel plated with key.

Part of the first part makes mention that these are very easy to handle and use.

Steve Santini

Fesselzange means basically ; "Fetter Pliers"

Fessel meaning manacle or cuff or fetter and zange meaning pliers. Zange is no doubt used because these hinge open not unlike a hinged plier that would trap or encase something in it's grip.

Schlussel means key.

Steve Santini

Hi, thanks Steve.

That text was copied from a copy I have from a Horst Stein catalogue with HAMBURG 39 as the only part of the address not abscured by a felt tip pen.

The handcuff pictured is the Hamburg eight with fluted keyhole. (No 5 Fesselzangen) and under the picture (drawing) of the cuffs is D.R.G.M. dating it pre 1945.

The question then is when did the D.R.G.M. start??

I am led to believe from my research that it might have been as early as 1910.

Ian

I am afraid I can't tell you just when that denotation first saw use.

In this case we are going to need a bona fide German historian.

I am barely passable with my German reading and translations and some spoken phrases and words but I do not know when those initials first came into use.

Steve

Ian,

After scouting the web I managed to find a number of items with this stamping.

The earliest I found was 1905 and latest I found was just before the advent of the Thrid Reich.

I have a feeling this stamping vanished after the Nazis came into power but I could be wrong.

Steve

-DRGM was a German patent mark (meaning Deutsches Reich Geschmacksmuster) and was used on both jewelry or applied to technical inventions. It was used until 1945.

Sadly, no info on when it first appeared.

Steve

-I have recently acquired a very historic balisong, a piece by Bontgen and Sabin's (English/German) which has the tang stamp "D.R.G.M (over) 1867". D.R.G.M. would indicate Germany and 1867 would make this one of the oldest balisong I have personally seen.

This seens to indicate that the D.R.G.M. stamping was used before the 1900's.

Steve

Hello,

> Could any of our German friends please help me with the translation of this.....

> Fesselzangen

a special german wort meaning the same as "Handschellen", handcuffs. Also Hagge are calling their handcuffs "Fesselzangen" (translated word by word it is hand pliers...), e.g. the model "Deutsche Polizei". They are also using the word "Fesselgeräte" - "schackle apparatus" or so

> (neue verbesserte Ausfuehrung)

new improved version.

> Bequemer und schneller zu handhaben, als alle bisher in den Handel gebrachten Fesselzangen, nur nach einer Seite zu oeffnen und nur mit einem sicher wirkenden Verschluss.

More comfortable and faster to handle as all other handcuffs whitch has been yet on market. Opens only to one side and with only one safe operating locking mechanism.

> Wenn zuammengeklappt auch ohne Schluessel zu oeffnen.

Can be opened without key when folded.

> Also fertig zum Gebrauch und ohne Schluessel verschliessbar.

Therefore ready for use and can be locked without using key.

> Wenn im Gebrauch, ist ein Oeffnen nur mit dem Schluessel moeglich.

When in use (meaning: closed around wrists) opening is only possible with key.

> Fein geschliffen und vernickelt mit Schlüessel.

Pretty smoothed, nickel plated and with key.

...................................
I am especially looking for a correct meaning for these words, which bablefish cannot give me.

Ausfuehrung
version (of item, e.g. some cuffs are available nickel plated or stainless steel)

Fesselzangen
an other word for "Handschellen", handcuffs. A special word used by some german companies. But nobody is using this word in common speech...

zuammengeklappt
folded, the position where the hamburg eight (ungimmicked) can be opened without key.

Schluessel
key

I have edited the german text a little bit because some letters have vanisched or changed. In Gernamy we have A,O,U or a,o,u with two dots above it, and a letter looking like greek beta, when using a font without them we write it Ae,Oe,Ue,ae,oe,ue and ss (for the "beta").

Best regards
Andy-58

Hi Steve and Andy, thanks for you help.
Andy, thank you for the description of words that are not in vogue now and letters that are not used. It made bablefish bring up some strange translations.

I was most interested in the 'new improved version" part. I was thinking as many of us might have that the date order of keyhole design was, horseshoe, rectangular and then fluted keyholes.

However the D.R.G.M. denotes earlier than 1945.

So after many years I find myself doing 180 degrees on my thinking and thanks to all for their input into the research on the Hamburg eight.

It's great to learn something new. When John's question came up, the information seem to fly in the face of my faithfully held believe, but when given the evidence, I have to change my mind.

This one has been fun and thanks to Joe Luaher for giving us the means to do it.

Best to all

Ian

OK,
One last question: When did the name "Hamburg 8" originate and where????
On all earlier itmes, it's listed as German Handcuff, or German Folding Handcuff..... When did it first appear as a "Hamburg 8"? Any thoughts?
Thanks, John

I will throw another question for all to wonder about.... on the box above, why does it have NO 5 ?????? what does that stand for ???? the FIFTH model or what.... if it is just a number, I would have thought that the number would be an 8 ....Joe Tanner
__________________________________________________________________________

One last question: When did the name "Hamburg 8" originate and where????
On all earlier items, it's listed as German Handcuff, or German Folding Handcuff..... When did it first appear as a "Hamburg 8"? Any thoughts?
Thanks, John Bushey
__________________________________________________________________________

In 1999, I (Joe Fox) inquired to Michael Busch about the origin of the NO. 5 on the boxes. I assume he wont mind if I quote below from his letter:

"The Hamburg 8 was produced by the German Kayser Company.The Hamburg 8 is No. 5. There is a swing-through handcuff - which is No. 6, and they made an adjustable darby cuff - which is No. 7 (Michael is referring to the swing-through Kayser handcuff, and their adjustable darby cuff -- J.F.). The numbers 1 -4 were given to other police equipment such as chain-twister, brass knuckles, a whistle, and others."
____________________________________________________________________________

Indeed,if one looks through a Kayser catalog, it appears that the No. 5 referencewas nothing more than a catalog reference number, or the item number of the Kayser product line??

Now, regarding the NAME Hamburg 8

I quote from the (1975) handcuff & lock collectors book: The P.M. Broach Assemblage (p. 9) regarding the Hamburg 8:

"This is an old type German figure 8. It has the original key which fits a square in the lock. The name was given to these cuffs by Harry Houdini. Parcels going through the Hamburg mails were numbered and the package of handcuffs going to him happened to be #8. Dick Norman once received a package of handcuffs numbered 12."

Personally, I always just assumed that the name Hamburg 8 was
simply a catchy name combining the name of a well-known German city (Hamburg) and the SHAPE of the handcuffs (a figure 8).


By-the-way, HOUDINI is also mentioned in reference to the Hamburg 8s by Dick Wresch in his book, stating something like: Houdini had no fear of them.

--Joe Fox

Hi Joe, some good questions.......
The Horst Stein catalogue page I have states the Hamburg eight as (product) Number 5 (fluted keyhole)

I am guess that Kayser also made the cuff and may have given it another number.

I have always believed the cuff was named after the town where they were made and the shape (similar to plug eight, being figure eight shaped with plug)

Ian

My "Kayser" catalog pages - have a "Horst-Stein" stamping on them...which led me to believe that "Horst-Stein" took over the "Kayser" product line??? (German collectors-help).

Isn't the Hamburg. 8 cuff - numbered as a "No. 5" in both "Kayser" & "Horst-Stein" catalogs?

Joe, Thanks! Very interesting. I'll check my broach stuff, and also
the Dick Norman stuff I have. I know the Wresch book lists the Hamburg 8
as a German Folding Handcuff, page 24. I would take a wild guess and say
that some magic/escape seller coined the term in some old magic magazine
or catalog. All the early (Houdini's lifetime) mentions seem to be
German handcuff, or German folding handcuff. John

I'm not sure I would believe something just because it was mentioned in the Broach catalog. There are many innacurate statements in the catalog. I agree that the figure 8 shape of the cuff makes it more likely to have it's name from the shape than from package number 8. Would plug 8 or other figure 8 cuffs be called plug 15's if they were in the 15th package ?
Stan

hi ! all.... as i do not follow every thread etc on this great forum this may already have been covered & known..... i do not believe HORST every made a HAMBURG 8 cuff...... the only maker of the modern GERMAN fluted & flat key Hamburg 8 cuffs were made by the -- FIRMA GUSTAV ADOLF KEYSER -- 5991 - EVINGSEN/U. ALTENA -- WEST DEUTSCHLAND --- a very small garage shop type of business.... joe

hi ! all .... here is another thing for you all to check out.... how many of you have HAMBURG 8 cuffs with a number 4 on the FLAT side near the center ????? number 5 ???? no number ???? could the 4 represent the model ???? check it out..... joe

I've seen quite a few of the cuffs with the "v" key and many of them are marked with a number on each of the 4 cuff parts. The numbers are always 1,2,3,4. I have one that has all 4 numbers and another that has the numbers and is also marked "Germany". I think they were for some type of instructions on the use of the cuff.
Has anyone seen the No. 3 twister shown in the Horst-Stein/Kayser catalog ?
Stan

I have always thought that the numbers on each part of the cuff (part of the casting and not stamped in later) were to help with mass assembly.

Just like most Lilly irons have matching numbers stamped on all the main frame parts.

Steve Santini

I just looked at the Broach catalog and Joe's reference. Item 65 is the cuff that describes the 8th package that Joe refers to. Item 65 is listed as a Hamburg 8, but the description is for a figure 8 with a square locking bolt, and I have a note that it is the figure 8. I asked Pat Broach because I was interested in it. I think Ray Mckee bought it. Item 78 is also called a Hamburg 8, and it was a real Hamburg 8. I just wanted to clarify what is in the catalog.
For those of you who are wondering what we are talking about, Pat Broach put out a catalog when he sold his handcuffs and padlocks in 1979 or 1980. There are no pictures of the cuffs, just a description, which wasn't always accurate.
Stan

Thanks Stan, for clarifying the wrong info. that I posted--based on the inaccurate "Hamburg 8" title in the Broach book.

Hi, numbers stamped on the inside of the casting were for the assembling of each cuff. If several cuffs were being made at any time,as each piece was hand fitted by file, not all parts would be interchangeable, so all parts marked 3, or parts marked 5 etc were all go together to assemble one cuff.

A set of cuff should have all four parts of the frame and bows marked with the same number. If no numbers are seen over 9, then one could assume they were done in small quantities at any time. Unlike Cobb handcuff which have matching numbers on the lock and hinge which are three digits.

In some cases the numbers were part of the patterns ( made in wood ) and is cast directly into the parts. This would mean that there were differences in each cuff. The four parts for one cuff would be different from any other four parts and the numbers assisted keeping all parts for one cuff together.
Ian

My Hamburg 8 is a fluted keyway and has "1" and "3" pretty clearly stamped into one side only (1 is on the top piece and 3 is on the bottom of the same side.....see the photo below). "2" and "4" might have been stamped into the other side but if it was, it was not stamped very deep. There are some very weak marks in the place where those stamps would be, but it is not clear what they are; you be the judge.



Cheers, Mike D~C/

Thanks Michael for the photo, that is weird. So if the maker had enough parts to assemble 5 pair at any given time and all parts marked 1.2.3.4 how would he know which parts belonged to any given set.

very strange but true.

Ian

Well done, I am amazed at the amount of interest and photos etc. that I have never seen before.
I have 3 sets of Hamburg '9's in my collection. The oldest being the flat key version made of brass and nickel plated. Each movable part is stamped with a 'V'
Second set is an early fluted key model larger than the normal Kayser #5 (it measures 68mm compared to the 65 mm for the Kayser).
The Kayser model I have with original key are stamped with a 3 and 4 on the fixed parts.
Do you know if all the flat key models were brass?
Will now try and download some photos - luckily I have Dan with me to help!
Chris Gower

looks like

..........1

2

..........3

4

The #'s 1 & 2 being stamped very lightly.

My rectangular key model is plated brass, as is every one I have seen.
Stan

HI,
Both my flat key models are steel. Very magnetic! See photos above.
THe center one belonged to Harry Blackstone Sr. and the left one is
a very old flat key version I believe. It's shaped differently than almost
all Hamburg 8's I've seen with flat keyholes. John

My flat key pair are steel and somehow, looking at the pics, seem like they are much later in production than what Chris posted.

Brad

The number stamps is an intriguing question. There does not appear to be a consistent answer.

Ian suggests the cuffs were hand fitted to some extent. This makes perfect sense, paricularly if they were sand cast brass. They would need considerable clean up before they were finished. Even precisely manufactured machines like firearms, often employed considerable hand smithing during final assembly.

There is appeal to the idea that they were assembly marks, probably affixed by the individual doing the assembly, after hand fitting and before plating. That way, when the parts came back from the plater, they would be easier to assemble.

Perhaps the differences in the style of marking represents the personal preferences of the individual assemblers, who changed over time. This would be consistent with the small shop manufactury.

One of those interesting puzzles that may not have a unique answer.

Hi John Bushey, this thread is too long to wade through and I was wondering now that that the earliest date for the Hamburg 8 has been established, have the keyhole shapes been dated??

The information I have says that the horseshoe verison is the first, then the rectangular up and into the 1960's and then the fluted keyhole there after.

I have also been told that the cuff foirst mentioned in this thread is not of Houdini's era and thererfore not owned by him.

Ian

There are two modified Hamburg 8s with unusually good provenance and chain of custody, with rectangular keys, that belonged to Houdini. One, is the cuff that began this thread; the other has been in the possession of the Hinson family since Houdini owned it.
I know I said that before but we're going 'round and 'round here.

On April 29 this year, there was the following post:
Re: Houdini Hamburg 8's April 29 2009, 10:30 PM
Thanks for the great detective work. I am sold, I now see a rectangular keyhole early Hamburg eight. I am thrilled that so many have come together to solve this mystery.
Special thanks to Fred and John. The quest is over and I have learnt a lot.
Ian

The cuff first mentioned in this thread was clearly described as having a rectangular key.

The photograph I have seen shows a hamburg eight with Fluted keyhole which I would conclude as being a later 1960's model. What do the handcuff collectors suggest is the lineage of keyhole designs?

Ian

I have this hamburg 8 and i need information
some tips:
-flat key
-metal chromed brass
-rare logo