(Login HP57) 57 Rescue Moderators from IP address 213.17.32.237
Hi all,
I was looking at Linzee's excellent site recently and noticed that some of the underwater Halifax wrecks have been investigated one way or another. Surely one of those could be further investigated for possible recovery?
Karl K, have you looked into any of these possibilities (yet)?
Dear Cees, No, I have not studied the Tirpitz attack in detail. Is there more than 1 Hali in the waters where the first one came out? (Do not get me started on the "non-gifted" idea to leave the RAF Museum Halifax unrestored, laying on it belly for all the world to "admire")
Email me if you have any ideas and details on these Halis of the Tirpitz attack. Cheers, Karl K
Seven of the Halifax aircraft lost during March and April 1942 attacks against Tirpitz lie underwater in salt water. They are all, without exception, war graves and as such should be left in peace. Six are in Norwegian waters, one somewhere off Shetland.
Halifax W1048 TL-S was the only one to have been lying in fresh water and was the only one to have suffered no loss of life when she was crash landed.
Contrary to the view expressed above by karl, I believe this Halifax which is on display in the Bomber Command Hall at Hendon to be an apt and fitting tribute and memorial to the aircraft and crews who failed to return. Recreating it into a polished, shiny Halifax with little or none of the original fabric, paint or character left would do little to reflect the reality, waste, tragedy and loss caused by war.
Yes, the Halifax at Hendon is less than perfect, it is in poor shape, it has been shot up, it has crash landed, been engulfed by fire, it has sunk to the bottom of a lake which freezes over every year and has lain down there in the dark for 26 years before being brought back to the surface and seeing daylight again. I would be having a seriously bad hair day after that kind of experience myself!
W1048 may be broken, dirty and incomplete but that smashed perspex, bent aluminium, flaking paint, rusting hulk laying on its belly at Hendon (the Pilot correctly had the undercarriage retracted for the crash landing since it was on a frozen lake)tells more about how it really was than most, if not all, other airframes I've ever seen, and its condition reflects this.
My grandfather was a Halifax pilot with 35 Squadron. He died in a shot up Halifax engulfed in flames which crashed into a Norwegian fjord after bombing Tirpitz in March 1942. He was one of many who lost their lives in this way and I for one am thankful that the museum at Hendon have no plans to restore W1048. I admire it and find it a poignant and fitting reminder and a tribute to my grandfather and the thousands like him who failed to return.
I have nothing against other projects to restore, recreate or refurbish airframes, they are all worthy in their different ways and all have their merits, just as W1048 has hers by staying the way she is.
Clomp, clomp, hoppity skip...........off my soap box now!
I hoped you would respond as you have the most knowledge on these sites. I read the book by Nigel Smith about the Tirpitz raids. Don't worry I am not going to start the W1048 debate. She's a very strong monument (but please make her more complete with cowlings, perspex etc.)
Let me first climb on my soapbox.......there, Ok, let's start:
No aircraft is a wargrave, that's just the opinion of the British MOD. I can tell you that no next of kin likes the idea that their loved ones are resting in a wrecked aircraft underwater or in a field where cows are grazing (that is, if they know about it, you would be surprised. Most don't).
For 15 years I have been involved in recoveries where missing crewmembers were found (last years tally was 11 men accounted for) in The Netherlands/Holland (whichever you prefer) and I think it's a disgrace that people take the easy way and declare all wrecks with missing people wargraves (not meant to offend you Linzee).
I think that the Halifaxes which crashed in fjords or near the coast of Norway can be a very good area where to find substantial Halifax wreckage as well as bringing back these hero's. Killing two birds with one stone, besides there was one missing aircrewmember in NA337. During the recovery he wasn't found so clearing up one part of the mystery.
Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.
Cheers
Cees
Feel free to discuss this matter over the phone, my number is: 0031 35 526 89 92 (Holland)
Cees, we are going to have to agree to differ on several points I feel.
Firstly to your statement that "no aircraft is a wargrave". If there was loss of life whether it crashed on land or at sea and the body/bodies were not recovered then it remains their last resting place. In my opinion that makes it their grave and it should be respected as such and not disturbed without good reason. I don't think it is taking the easy way out to declare it a wargrave, it is a fact that someone died there and their remains may still be there. After all, you would never consider going out and conducting an excavation in a cemetery to dig up a grave, what is the difference here?
Secondly, if relatives of those who have not been recovered express a wish to conduct an excavation with a view to discovering and recovering their loved one in order for them to be given a formal burial then this is another matter and one which I wish the government in the UK would take more seriously. However, the priority here should be recovering the remains of the crew and not the aircraft - the aircraft is a secondary part of the issue here and the two should not be confused however frustrating that might be to some. Furthermore, I don't believe that all next-of-kin wish for a recovery, some are against disturbing the last resting place of their loved ones and would prefer that they are left in peace as they consider where they are to be their grave.
Finally, I am not familiar with the full story regarding NA337 but if there was one airman from the crew missing and he was not recovered during the recovery of the aircraft I don't see how that solves any mystery. All it says to me is that he is still missing and was not found in the aircraft at the time of the recovery.
It would be a dull old world if everyone shared the same opinions about everything, wouldn't it :-)
It looks like we differ on serveral points, but the contrary is true, we actually agree about almost everything but from a different background. But as you also say, we cannot have it all and it makes more interesting to discuss about.
Let me reply to some of your statements:
L-If there was loss of life whether it crashed on land or at sea and the body/bodies were not recovered then it remains their last resting place.
C-True, but it was not their choice to end up there. A grave is something that it's meant to be and should be marked as such by either a monument, stone or otherwise. A green meadow where cows graze (and do other "things") can hardly be called that.
L-After all, you would never consider going out and conducting an excavation in a cemetery to dig up a grave, what is the difference here?
C-True again, and I will never think about doing that. The whole process starts with a preliminay investigation in the archieves etc. to establish what we are dealing with here for instance. But most sites (speaking for the situation over here) are not marked as such and most aircraft are still listed missing without trace. Most aircraft wrecks containing missing aircrew are only known by a very small number of people.
L-if relatives of those who have not been recovered express a wish to conduct an excavation with a view to discovering and recovering their loved one in order for them to be given a formal burial then this is another matter.
C-True again, and this is the heart of the matter. If the next of kin wish to have a wreck recovered to enable their loved-ones to be given a decent (decent = the keyword) then even the British MOD cannot stop this (speaking only again for the Dutch situation) as we have proved over and over again that through power of the press, verterans and sponsors it is possible to effect a proper recovery.
L-the priority here should be recovering the remains of the crew and not the aircraft
C-I never claimed that the recovery of the wreck is more important. I fully agree with you on that one as well. I wanted to make clear that if a complete wreck (historically important that is) is to be recovered that the issue of possible aircrew aboard is the most important thing but also gives good reason for recovery.
L-I don't believe that all next-of-kin wish for a recovery, some are against disturbing the last resting place of their loved ones and would prefer that they are left in peace as they consider where they are to be their grave.
C-That's true but according to my experience about 99.5 % wants to make sure that there is a fitting grave. Missing is worse than death. If a family wishes to have a site left alone, that's a very good reason but then again have it marked as such. Such sites are in Holland as well and are strong monuments to human sacrifice. I fully support this.
L-I am not familiar with the full story regarding NA337 but if there was one airman from the crew missing and he was not recovered during the recovery of the aircraft I don't see how that solves any mystery.
C-correct, but at least the trouble has been taken to find out if his body was still inside the aircraft, and the investigation proved this not be so. I know, the mystery is not cleared fully and he will be lost for ever but if his body had been aboard that case had been solved as well.
So you see, we have quite the same opinon but different backgrounds and that way it makes it a clearer picture.
Investigating crashsites is something that is not to be taken lightly and that is something I am very well aware of, having bean actively involved for 15 years. My drive is, and my collegues in Holland (and I hope all over Europe as well) is to make sure that we can locate any missing aircrew (regardless of nationality, I will do the same for a German airman, they have families as well). After that contact the next of kin to find out what their wishes are about a possible recovery and respect their opinons. We do not decide, they do.
Dont'forget our country has been occupied for five years and the people have suffered a great deal (my parents for instance) and even after so many years the gratitude of the Dutch nation is such that these aircrew who gave their lives are still being held in high esteem.
Hi, my grandad was with 502 squdron,and in 1944 he and his crew were shot down, they were in there halifax bomber,they were shot down by junkers,the piolot was canadian,there was an American, the rest of them were from the uk?I know were abouts were there plane went down!it was 40 miles west of brest france..
Only the piolot and navigator were found,there bodies washed ashore close to brest and were buried by the germans(very nice of them!!).
I to agree that the bodies "SHOULD" be found and given a better burial. Better than the MOD could ever give to any service-man or woman??. That also applies for all of them that died in any war after all it was the goverment that put them there in the first place and so the goverment should go on by what the familys want, and the goverment should jump as high as we want them to !!!.(i dont like wars they kill inocent people!!!)
I would like to know if it is possible to find the plane so that a plaque could be put there so that it can be marked as a grave? and my family and i could put them to restan they to could rest in peace properly.I have done heaps of research into my grandad and his crew!!.
Please could anyone get back to me with any info about finding the air craft
and laying a plaque to mark the site as a grave,
i know the aicraft serial number,i would be very grateful of any information about this