Hi all out there,
Whilst on holiday in France last year I was shown some aircraft wreckage, a section of aluminium panelling with stringers riveted to it. The panel is burned around the edges and buckeled, I suspect through impact. The stringers are both top hat and I section all made of sheet ally, no extrusions,
it looks relatively old as an aerostructure. A part No on one of the stringers is 577026 0 as far as I can tell.
Having been informed that the 57 pre fix is for a Halifax I am keen to talk to anyone who could assist me further in tracing the identity and history of this aeroplane.
thanks
Rob Rose
In order to attempt to trace the identity of the a/c you would have to supply as much information as you possibly can. I'm sure you can imagine there were rather a lot of aircraft came down on French soil from both sides!
Certainly 57 is a prefix used on Hali parts but I'm no expert on that and will leave others more knowledgeable to advise further on that matter.
Try and remember as much as you can about what you were told about the wreckage. Where was it found? Was the year it might have crashed mentioned? Are there any memorials in the area to aircrew? Are there any aircrew buried in the local cemetery?
A few more clues would certainly help to make a start on an attempt to find out which a/c the wreckage might have come from. Let us know and we can start digging around in our files.
Your number "577026 0" has something missing I'm afraid
Whilst I can identify a Hally component from it's number, that number needs to be complete. Can you imagine how many individual parts go to make up one of these aircraft, and the parts listing as about as thick as 3 phone books!!!
What the complete numbers look like is something similar to this:-
57286D14 or 572985E2 etc, they mostly start "57" then there is the component number which can be anything up to a four digit number, BUT, then is always a letter, and this letter indicates where abouts in the index to hunt, then there is a final set of numers after the letter.
Can I suggest you have another look at the part under a magnifying glass for a complete number. Inspectors syamps can also sometimes give a clue, such as EEP or LHBR etc.
Hi Ian/linzzie,
Thanks for your prompt reply, I have had another look at the part No, I have a small section of the panel at home here on the Isle of Man. It could be 57702C 0.
There is a definite space between the C and 0.
The item is an I section stringer manufactured from two interlocking sheet metal details. The stringer being riveted to
a skin panel. I have been in aircraft manufacturing and maintainance for many years and am thus intrigued by the origin of this item.
Further information, the panel was recovered from a woodland/riverside 4k from a town called Chabanais which in turn is 40k west of Limoge, which had a number of significant raids.
The locals tell me that two British airmen bailed out in the vicinity and were routed by the resistance down to Spain.
The other part of the panel is still down there but I am hopeing to have it back soon.
I have digital photos so could send if helpful.
thanks
Robin Rose
I have just looked through my master list of blueprints for the Halifax from which we have been ordering drawings for the rebuild of NA337 in Trenton. In thehundreds of drawing numbers of Handley Page blueprints there is one blueprint number of
57702 C which is the drawing and part number of "Skin and stringers on port side & top of fuselage , frames 22 to 38". This means the part is from a Halifax Mk I, II or IISr. 1a and the part would be from the rear fuselage area just fore or aft of the mid-upper turret area.
signed, Not from Yorkshire. Cheers KK
HI KK,
Thanks for that information, very interesting.
Now knowing that this panel comes from the area of the mid
upper turret, the skin does appear to have been painted red,
don't know if that is finish or a primer, if it is a finish
could be a clue to id, I am making further inquiries so
will see what turns up!
thanks again
Robin Rose
If you can try and get a year (year and month would be even better) for this loss then it will be easier to try tracing. Have not come up with anything of any use so far but will keep digging.
Just a line to say that according to our records K Kj is correct.
Note: red paint could be a faded/weathered/oxidised black.
I have learnt this from handling wreckage on crash sites.
I now have some confirmed information about the Halifax crash near the town of Chabanais in central France.
The information has been provided by a copy of a police report concerning the incident, The relevant details are that the crash occured on the 10/05/44 at 02.00. The markings on the aircraft were MA W. The aircraft was engaged in a supply drop to the local resistance who were very active in that area.
It appears that the crew baled out, some were injured and captured but two were taken in by the resistance and hidden in the village of Prestiniac for some days, they were then taken to Cognac and flown home.
An interesting story, it would be great to have some corroboration if anybody has sufficient information.
thanks
Robin Rose
Dear Robin, Your story about a Halifax is possible. "MA" is the squadron identifier for 161 squadron, RAF, and this is aircraft "W", most likely B flight. 161 was a special duties squadron dropping agents and their C.O. was Percy Pickard, later to have led the famous Amiens raid by Mosquitoes. 161 did have a mixed bag of aircraft types including Mark I, II's and V's of the Halifax. So there is some credence to your Hallie bits and story. Cheers, Karl Kj.
The date was a big help, thanks. It could be Halifax V LL183 MA-W, a 161 Squadron Hali as KK correctly identified by the code.
The information given re this loss in Bomber Command Losses by W R Chorley is as follows:
Took off 2242 from Tempsford borrowed from 138 Squadron (another SOE Sqdn) for Operation Percy 3, course being established for France. Crashed Rochechouart in the department of Haute Vienne. (not sure where that is in relation to Chabanais/Limoges as stated in your earlier posts as where parts of the a/c were found).
Crew and fate as follows:
F/O A S Coldridge RCAF - evaded Sgt E Jones - evaded F/O D A Lennie RCAF - evaded F/O R C Evans RCAF - evaded F/O H D Medland RCAF - evaded Sgt H Blackett - evaded Sgt R Clark - POW
If you think this is the correct a/c then you could visit the PRO (oops, National Archives) at Kew, London and look for the escape and evasion reports for the evaders and there should also be a document (forget the name but a POW report or something like that) with regard to Sgt Clark.
Will also ask my 161 Sqdn guru if he has any further info on this loss or the crew.
Hi Linzee / KK
Thanks for your information, I think the time and
locations tie this one up quite nicely as Rochechouart is only
three or four miles down the road. My brother tells me he has a whole bundle of documentation, all in French of course and will be over there this week digging around a bit more, local recolections etc. Apparently the wreck was lying there for some years after the war, coming down into a field and hitting a barn, so sounds as if was in a level rather than vertical attitude when it hit the ground. A few more questions and answers to come! We will look into the possibility of approaching the records office you mentioned, I am intrigued by the mission especially as I used to live not far away from Tempsford years ago.
It's also nice to know that all the boys got out of this one...
once again thanks alot
Robin Rose
After visiting the crash site and speaking to local historian I now have some more info regarding this story.
All crew members escaped by parachute.The aircraft crashed into a potato field at the farm le Groslaud 2km south of Chabanais.All crew escaped exept Sgt Clark who broke his leg and was taken prisoner by the Gendarmerie of St Laurent sur Gorre.
German officers visited the site and after posting a guard on the wreck of two french Policemen,returned to the hotel "La croix blanche" in Chabanais.On the 11th May the guard was attacted by the resistance.They were tied up by an overwhealming force.Two of the crew now dressed in civilian clothing removed material from the cockpit.Ammunition and other items were also taken away before the wreck was blown up .The group took refuge in a local water mill.It is believed that the famous resistance leader Raoul was involved.Also that the crew were then hidden in nearby Pressignac before escaping home to England by air from Cognac,some sixty miles to the west.
I am continuing my research and hope to find more history of the crew and their escape.
Hello,
I came across your site while doing work on my family tree. My late uncle, Ted Jones, was the flight engineer on this aircraft, did anyone find out anything further on this?
Re: Any further information about Sqdn 161 MA-W LL183
August 28 2007, 9:14 AM
Dwight, if you click on the name 'richard rose' in the left margin of post above yours you should get an e-mail address so you can mail him directly with your request. This is quite an old thread on the forum so he may not be checking in regularly.
This seems to be a very experienced and technical group, so I have some further questions.
Is there any way of finding out which engines were installed on MA-W, LL183, and where they were manufactured?
I understand the types used at that time were Bristol Hercules, Rolls-Royce built Merlins, and Packard Merlins. What were the differences in power between the engines? On paper? In practice?
MA-W crashed because it was unable to maintain altitude after two of its engines failed. Would a different type have possibly kept it in the air?
The type of engines and manufacturer will be noted on the a/c loss card A.M. Form 78 (although the info may possibly be available elsewhere of course). The A.M. 78 loss cards are held in the records at 'DORIS' in the RAF Museum at Hendon, see this link for further information about how to visit the records http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/research/index.cfm
I'll leave those who know more about the technical side of engines to give a response on your other questions.
As a Halifax V, the aircraft will most likely have been fitted with the RR Merlin XX engine. You can confirm this by getting a copy of the Form 78 Aircraft Movement Card (try the RAF Museum - they may even tell you over the phone).
The Mk V was basically a Mk II with a different undercarriage.
Hercules engines were used on the Mk III/VI/VII/VIII/IX.
A Halifax would fly one two engines, in fact it would fly on one but the latter was not recommended, it being safer to bale out! However, the degree of damage sustained (not necessarily confined to the engines)would determine how long it would stay in the air.
It is not possible to compare performance between aircraft with any meaningful results. It is known that considerable variation occurred between individual aircraft even from the same production run (your aircraft was built by Rootes).
I'm sure Karl will be able to advise on flight characteristics for better than I'll ever hope to.
You could always try the Rolls Royce Heritage Trust for specifics
LL183 was outfitted with Rolls Royce Merlin 22 engines which produced 1480 hp.
Regardless of power plant any multi-engined aircraft is in trouble when it loses any of its engines. Big trouble if the loss is multiple engines.
The loss of even a single engine is problematic especially if the prop cannot be feathered because of the drag.
The loss of two is almost certain to result in a major struggle to maintain any reasonable altitude and the loss of two on one side or any unequal combination of engines will make the aircraft's handling extremely difficult if not near impossible. Of course different engines powered different other aircraft systems (hydraulics, electrics, etc.)
Although some aircraft were known to be able to make base remaining airborne with just a single power plant there would be a dramatic and steady rate of descent and of course the engine at full power would not last long.
In these circumstance almost any pilot or aircraft Captain would opt to give the order to abandon the aircraft if the conditions allowed. In any event a ditching, forced or crash landing would likely be imminent.
When I ran your scenario by a former Halifax Skipper he recollected that he landed on three once due to a glycol leak and that was exciting enough even though they had no other major problem. A two-engine failure with the likelihood of other damage to the aircraft and you'd best be on good terms with your maker.
Thank you all for your replies. You are a nice bunch!
I have sent an email off to 'DORIS' asking them to check the Form 78, and I expect that I'll receive a reply in the fullness of time; 20 working days is their estimate.
I understand your point that having only two out of four engines is extremely hazardous regardless of how powerful they are. I hadn't thought of the possible effect on hydraulics and electrics, I guess there were no APU's in those days.
My uncle, Ted Jones, the flight engineer, said more than once that he thought that they could have stayed up if they'd had "proper" RR engines. I don't know what he meant by that, hence my questions. They were 500 miles from base but only 90 miles from the Bay of Biscay where they hoped to ditch and be picked up by an Allied ship. But it sounds like they were doomed no matter what they did. I think he may have been suffering from something like "pilot's guilt" in that he couldn't save the aircraft and get the crew home. He was a conscientious man and probably felt, quite wrongly, that he'd failed in his duty to coax the utmost power out of the remaining engines.
It's also interesting that this crew were from squadron 138 and unfamiliar with MA-W which was a 161 squadron machine. It was borrowed from 161 because their usual 138 machine was under repair. Human nature leads me to suspect that MA-W was an average to below average performer because the squadron 161 pilots would have tended to collar the better machines for themselves, and any loaners would have been what was left over. Is this an accurate perception?
for the implied compliments. The forum while not what it once was under the guidance and tuteledge of the Fosters still has regular visitors who in their own rights are Halifax "experts" (present company excluded regrettably) ...
Still onboard are some Halifax "hobbyists" and people with a tremendous depth of knowledge in many aspects of the Halifax as well as a few vets, people who served on and flew the Halibag under combat conditions. Many have access to irreplaceable resources, manuals and records and if it can be found out it likely will be. Aside from which the forum still allows people to make contacts around the globe.
Ian and Jill (the founders) have left a tremendous legacy. Perhaps some day soon after a sabatacle of unknown duration they will return reenergized and with their undying enthusiasm in full. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they drop-in every now and then for a visit. They are missed ...
I do sometimes drop by folks, for a quick browse about :)
I may not be active, but my spirit is still here
Fondest wishes to everyone that's kept this site going
Ian
