Hi
Still ongoing with the Halifax Model but realy need some pictures of the following area . Flight Engineers station fuselage side. Bulkhead that divides him from the Pilot, Floor platform. Its area were the bulkhead and fuselage side meet that I have no pics of. Was there just a platform or was there a seat for the FE. Need detail pics of all the equipment fitted to the fuselage side in the F.E's station. What is the large drum like object on one of the equipment pannels.
Hi
I am about to try and send a post with a picture/drawing to more clearly explain what I mean. I have loads of photos of halifax's but none show this area. Take a look at the new post if I can work out how to do it.
Well Phil I took a look at my book it is called Pilots And Flight Engineer's Notes and it is for Halifaxe III or VII. It gives a pic of the flight engineers panel only if you are interested I will scan you off the pics.
Hi
I thought it might br the pilots notes. I have them,but its the bits they dont show that I need. Aint it allways the way. It amazes me that with the thick wad of print outs and photos I have that there are still gaps in my coverage.
How do you post picks to the forum? I would be able to make it a lot clearer then.
If you want to take a look at current progress on the model go to http://www.djblue.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rob/Phil/rob3/hali3.htm
... go to insert object then temporay file and upload at the bottom click browse and search for the pic you want then go to upload right beside the browse button click it and wait a bit and it should show up. Then from there ther is probably more but I don't know how because most of my pics never work. The other way is you could use a pic website such as www.photobucket.com it is 100% free and then you just post the url address and it'll show up here as the pic.
Hi Phil,
ACE job by the way!!!!
If you are having difficulty posting pics, send them to me via email & I'll post them for you.
OK - re the F/E's position... I've got LOADS of pics, however, no scanner
I'll be getting a digital camera in April & so will be able to photograph documents & post a jpeg picture straight from the camera, but that's a few months away still... Have you tried Cees? He's building the REAL F/E's position & will no doubt have more info for you - although I suspect Cees is in the same boat as myself - loads of info but no scanner...
Errm.. your Elsan is the wrong colour... it should have a cream coloured body & black lid... Just thought you might like to know.
Master Compass has an all matt black body, the body on the bulkhead lights is also matt black.
Are you going to be able to open the access door when the 'kit' is finished? it would be a shame if you couldn't, especially after all the hard work you have put in!
I've put together a folder of some possible useful pics for you - what's your email address and can you handle a file 3mb in size or would I need to reduce it?
Drop me an email - ian@(NOSPAM)57rescue.org
Best wishes
Ian
Hi
I knew the info was out there somewhere. The elsan and the floor section are not finnished or painted yet but you have answered a question about it even before I asked it. Can't be bad. My email address is
phils-HPHalifax@blueyonder.co.uk.
My main problem at the moment is just getting used to my system and how to do stuff, same as anyone new to the world of computers I suppose. Tried e mailing something to you last night but will try again.
as I recall my Dad recounting, it was great fun for the Pilot to jockey the tail up and down in flight at the appropriate time frame thus making any unfortunate airmen having to utilize the Elsan in a moment of acute distress to have great difficulty remaining aboard this rather precarious perch. Apparently it was just a riotous prank save for the poor soul who had been in such dire need of its function. Sort of airborne "toilet humour" .... You may have to consider streaking of your Elsan model to provide authenticity to the colour scheme ...
Hi
It raises the question as to who had to clean it up? Was there any privacy eg a curtain for the more shy Airman. Which was the best loo Lanc, Hali or Stirling. Rough or smooth paper. You got me going now.
who was responsible for lavatory or janatorial duties - probably some poor groundcrew member but according to my source the worst aircraft for upheaval from the other end was the Boly. Apparently the gasoline fumes funnelled right down the interior fuselage of the Boly and it was notorious for those who took air gunnery training on them to be violently ill. He never ever had any complaint of this in the Halibag and yet apparently all aircraft had their own unique smells and combination of disagreeable odours, paint, dope, oil, avgas, etc.
Still the Elsan "bounce" prank would have been pretty amusing when you think of it.
Hmmn... Elsan's eh.. reminds me of the time when I was told of these pranks:-
Crew member calls up on the intercom to the skipper that he's going to use the "can"... Skipper says okay... Crew member unpluggs from the intercom & during the period of silence, the skipper tips the mid upper gunner off for a prank...
Crew member arrives at the "Can" and dutifully plugs his intercom back in (yep there was a plug at the Elsan too) and proceeds to unfasten himself & settle in to do his business so to speak... After a short period, the mid upper gunner (who has a grandstand view of the "Can") calls out "Corkscrew Left GO!" and the poor blighter on the "Can" gets dutifully covered with it's contents!! Much to the delight of the remainder of the crew!! :-)
By the way, Yes, there was a curtain around the Elsan. :-)
there is one burning question I have. I have been reading lots of air force stories and they talk about doing the corkscrew manoever. So they actually twisted their bomber almost like a barrel roll or am I totaly wrong, maybe someone could define this for me please.
Don't think a yellow ladder was ever used in the Halifax, most likely was natural aluminium. I have seen a similar ladder which came from a Stirling and it was unpainted as well.
Hi
Without wishing to constantly bambard this forum with questions,some of the stuff in the rear areas is based on reasoned quesses. The yellow comes from photos in colour of mainly Lancs that show all railings and handholds in yellow. Some black and whites of Halifax's appear to show yellow grab rails in the rear fuselage. These appear in more than one set of colour shots. Kinda presumed the ladder would be as well. I was debating if I should paint the handrails yellow. This all must be put into the context; and I have to keep reminding myself of this, that its almost impossible to see any of it once the fuselage halves are joined. The biggest area of concern that I have at the moment is that much of the work has been based on the YAM Halifax. With each new set of shots that I see of the Trenton bird the shortcommings of the former are more apparent.All new work will be based on trenton info.
I Much enjoyed the pictures of your Instrument pannel and seat on one of the forums.
Any debate on any of these matters can only help get memories into physical form as in a model,archeology,rebuilds or on the written record somewere as it will not be very long until there are no first hand witnesses of the events in this most important Historical period.
As I understand it, the "corkscrew" was an evasive manoeuver that the Pilot threw the plane into with vigour with several purposes:
First was to elude an attacking fighter and hopefully lose it for good - and second was to cause the fighter to overshoot making a deflection shot well near impossible.
There are several different ways and two directions this could be done generally based on the call of the gunners (or any other spotter in the aircraft) i.e. an observer at the astrodome.
The corkscrew involved a max power banking dive to port or starboard the idea being to turn into the direction of the attack this was then followed by an opposite direction climb to recover lost height and change direction and was repeated as necessary.
Often there were breifing and training on the specific characteristics and tactics to be applied to the "best" corkscrew. Amazingly even the heavy four-engine bombers could be thrown about quiet violently about the sky in terms of degree of bank and attitude. From those I know who have recounted it to me, it was a "hang on to your hats" and everything else as pretty near anything not secured would fly about the inside of the aircraft. Remember the forces of gravity and weightlessness apply.
If I can find it, I'll post a three-dimensional drawing of an aircraft doing a "corkscrew". Sometimes it's hard to envision but you have to remember this evasive manoeuver used the max abilities and performance of the aircraft in the three dimensions of flight. It's purpose was to escape an attacker and meanwhile gunners were supposed to be returning fire and taking pieces out of the attacking fighters if they could get a shot in.
The bomber could readily be crippled initially though if an attack had damaged engines or control surfaces and especially if an attack had come unexpectedly before the evasive manoeuver had commenced. Basically bombers tried to avoid conflict with "invisibility and stealth". To engage in battle with aircraft that had huge advantages in speed and firepower was a last defensive resort. Better to dive into the cover of cloud and lose an attacker than wage a very lop-sided encounter. Still even the relatively "light" defensive punch of multiple .303s (compared to the .50 s of the USAAF) gave good account of themselves q.v. Sgt. Peter Engbrecht RCAF who was officially an "ace" and was a MUAG.
A lot of gunners flew an entire Tour and never "fired a shot in anger" as ther job was to serve as look outs for defense.
My Dad subscribed to the adage, "Better you live and run away to fight again some other day"
I'm sure there will be many others who can better describe the corkscrew to you but I hope this helps.
I'm sure someone can provide the particulars for how many degrees of bank were applied and how many feet of altitude were used in the dive and climb portions of the corkscrew as well as airspeeds obtained. It's important to remember that 30 degrees of bank is a lot and the aircraft not only banks, dives and yaws, it literally "skids" about the sky in the process.
I've read documented stories about Ansons and even heard told of Halifaxes & Lancs actually being "barrel rolled" but I don't believe the airframe was ever meant to be subjected to that type of stress. Certainly I can't imagine that occuring in a fully laden bomber at all up weight. These were never performance fighter aircraft for aerobatics - still I expect if passenger planes were ever to initiate such an in-flight manoeuver it would add a whole new experience and dimension to commercial passenger travel.
I expect the Halifax was literally screaming when put into a corkscrew.
Thanks,
very usefull. Someone must have a photo somewere that shows the area to the right of these photos.I Take it they are of the YAM Halifax. How recent are they. Looks like a lot of detail work has gone on since I last saw pics of it.
Cheers
Phil
Phil, shortcut to log in page as above, just cut and paste into your browser url box.
I was puzzled by your reference to pop ups bcause they never show up at this end, although, yesterday we did have a banner ad on the front page of the site for a while.
Hi
Looking at the photos above I am trying to reconcile this to what the modeling community and paint manufacturers seem to think is the interior colour for RAF Aircraft. The available RAF interior greens are all far to dark green and not nearly "greyed out" enough. The latest pics of the Trenton Halibag look a much greener colour than The YAM example. Is this just an effect caused by flash photograpy. Please take a look at pics of both and see if you think they are the same colour.
P.s
if this were a German aircraft there would be many many books, constant debate on forums and more experts than you could wave a stick at.Nobody seems to care much about british aircraft in the modeling side. Shame because in the end they were the winners and without them and their crews we would not be afforded the luxury of fiddling arround with model aeroplanes.
It's more like nobody cares much about the Halifax and Stirling as well. I watched a program on Discovery Channel yesterday evening and presenter Chris Barry was very enthusiastic in telling that when the Lancaster finally appeared on the scene in 1942 that the RAF finally had the best bomber of the war.
Hi
you seem to forget that the programs that make it to the mainstream are made by media types who have no real interest in the subject, its just another job. How many times have you watched a (documentry) when the narrator spends ages talking about say the Spitfire while all the pictures show Hurricanes. With so many channels to fill audiences are diluted and standards and costs drop. There are exceptions Bomber Pilot on channel 4 here was an inteligent attempt to put over the story to a mainstream audience. Must go now or I might prattle on forever.
Phil, I think it is fairly safe to say that flash photography is giving the wrong impression of the colour used in the interior. I compared the photographs above to some that I have and in some cases the colours were similar to above (very grey looking) but in others it was possible to see a much more exact match to the actual colour used......which seems to be quite a pale, flat green colour. That was in the YAM Halifax. It is still possible to see the original green paint on the interior of the Hendon Halifax (just peeked through the windows you understand ) although the PX-9 preservative that was used to coat the aircraft has stained it with a reddish tinge. In my opinion the green that YAM have used is close to, if not the same, as the original green. Can't comment on the Trenton Hali and colour schemes as it's the one I haven't seen in the flesh (YET!)
Far be it from me to defend the media and all its works, but, being practical, it is difficult to make a mainstream programme about war time bombers of which there are no remaining air worthy examples. Television being a visual medium, just how do you include a Stirling or a Halifax, when you could have more interesting footage of some thing which still exists?
For example, Chris Barry and a veteran waxing lyrical over a photograph of a Stirling, or the pair of them sitting on the flight deck of a Lanc?
I think you can guess which footage the editor would include... the editor, like the presenter, not being well versed in military history!
The problem still, a bit like the Egyptian tomb furniture, is: just how much can you learn from studying what remains when maybe you should be looking for things that aren't there, like all the letters and records they found at Oxyrhincus that were the stuff of ordinary Ancient Egyptian life...telling us far more about ancient people than Tutankhaten's tomb ever did.
...And how do you know to look for something which isn't there? Are we onto metaphysics now?
I suppose this demonstrates the importance of keeping complete records for future generations, so that no one will be under the illusion that Fighter Command had but one type of aeroplane, and Bomber Command had another.
BTW I got onto the tomb furniture thing, because lots of ancient tombs have miniature figures of things from life, farm animals and servants etc, and I wondered if Phil was making his model as a funerary artifact to be interred with him when he shuffles off this mortal coil.
Hi
at the speed I am going the two events completion and my demise may be quite close.Being a big boy I am sure that the Pall bearers will have enough of a job without taking anything with me.
) although the PX-9 preservative that was used to coat the aircraft has stained it with a reddish tinge. In my opinion the green that YAM have used is close to, if not the same, as the original green. Can't comment on the Trenton Hali and colour schemes as it's the one I haven't seen in the flesh (YET!)