Have a decent picture of a Halifax Mk. III which is a head on view at dispersal and although a good b & w shot it shows a feature/detail I cannot determine.
It appears to be a roundish shaped bulge or maybe some sort of a rear facing scoop? It's located just aft of the bomb aimer's nose blister and along the centre line. The airspeed pitot is just aft on the port side.
It is not the downward and rearwards viewing perspex that some Halifax seem to have incorporated but it is definitely something.
Can't find my magnifying glass either!
Any ideas as to what it may be? I'm open to suggestions.
May try to post the pic but hope the description provided elicits an explanation.
that as well but I thought the window dispensing chutes were typically located much further aft and were metal rather angular holed "boxes"?
Perhaps there was no set standard and location was more dependant upon whom windowing duty fell to - the WOP or WAG or the B/A. If however the photo I have depicts a window dispensing chute it would appear the Bomb Aimer had this task in this particular a/c.
I've looked at several nose photos of Halifax and discovered a similar object/feature.
Here are three examples:
The Fiery Queen (Mk III of 425 Sqdrn.)
Embraceable U ( NP472 a Mk. VII of 408 Squadron) and an East Moor 432 Halifax with an impressive bomb log and biblical quote from St. Luke.
All three of these Halifax seem to have an identical rounded plexiglass deflector - sort of a rear facing scoop - just aft of the nose plexi- cone.
It's a feature I'd never noticed before and is definitely not on all Halifax. These three examples are clearly featured on page 83 of Rapier's "Halifax at War".
Also the same feature is seemingly evident in a nose shot of NP754 EQ-P of 408 squadron in squadron/signal publication "Halifax in Action" so it definitely is something.
Come on Haliphiles - let's hear your thoughts once you check the close-up photos out!
I, too suspect it is a late war style window dispensing chute but that's just a guess not a confirmation ...
Crack out the magnifying glasses and let me know ...
Thanks, Alan - I think you may be right but when in doubt always get a second opinion.
60 years is a long time to remember where all the parts went on a Halli, but I was the dispener of the window, and I didn't do it in the nose. More likely thru the flare chute. Or maybe, thru the same chute where we relieved ourselves so it would pick up the scent on the way down.
I was perusing Richard Koval's excellent site and discovered lots of 432, 408 and 426 squadron Halifax seem to feature this same item. It is clearly visible in his Nose Art section under those particular Squadron designations if anyone needs a photo to assist in identifying and confirming what the feature is.
Amazingly I discovered quite by chance a Nose art photo in Richard's site which depicted a family relative on the nose top of a 433 squadron Halifax "Beer is Best". He was the Navigator of the crew and was awarded the DFC for his steady and stalwart service and quiet example of leadership in over 30 ops.
It was quite a surprise to recognize him in a photo and Richard should be commended for a wonderful tribute site to 6 Group Bomber Command.
By any chance, is your picture of the Halifax 111 from a painting by Kieth Woodcock? I have the framed print gracing the wall of my workshop.
The picture has the Halli facing about 20 Degree to the left of me with a fuel bowzer at the Staboard wing and the starting unit at the port side. It is a winter scene with snow across the bottom of the picture. Can't tell you what the other things are, but the H2S dome is below the fuselage.
Although I have a beautiful Woodcock print (Yorkshire's Relish) the photo I have is an actual wartime pic of a Mk. III Halifax on dispersal at Rufforth in April/May of 1945. It is a head-on shot and shows no insignia or markings for individual aircraft identification. The H2S radome is clearly present but in the mid to aft section . The rear wards facing "scoop" appears to be clear plexiglass and is behind & underneath the one-piece nose cone section ahead of the air speed pitot.
The best examples of this identical "scoop" are found in the Nose Art section of Richard Korval's www.rcaf.com site.
I suspect it is a window dispensing chute of a style employed late war but was hoping to have this confirmed for certain.
Just curious, but I did throw out window from the rear of the Halifax where it was stored. But, if it was thrown out at the front, would it not also block the signals of H2S, Gee, and any other Radar on the plane, as well as the Kraut's?
Getting back to the LW170 website, and the book "Bless You, Brother Irvin", there will be a reading by the author from it on June 27th at McNally Robinson Bookstore in Calgary. Come listen, and get your book inscribed.
Not certain but I believe window was strips of aluminum foil cut to an exact length to match the specific operating wave length of the giant German Wurzburg radar. I don't believe it interfered with the dispensing aircraft's H2S or GEE navigation systems.
I read somewhere that 700-800 bombers could produce the reflected radar echo of a force of 11,000 aircraft! No wonder the poor German Fighter defenses were confused!
As I recall my Dad telling me he had to dump a pack of window every minute for the duration of the windowing run. Seems to me he loathed and hated the stuff but realizing it provided a protective screen that may have saved his own bacon let alone that onboard other aircraft so he "pressed on regardless".
Apparently the Yanks had their own version called Chaff. Dad's Skipper's first cousin was one of the chaps who designed window, a fellow by the name of Cockburn. Apparently he was awarded the OBE for his research, design and development at the Farnborough R & D Base. Window may have saved countless aircrew. Certainly loss statistics reveal the potential danger when the Germans outguessed the planning and Electronic Counter Measures Bomber Command employed ...
The Halifax was apparently a good platform for window dispensing ...
"Thanks, Alan - I think you may be right but when in doubt always get a second opinion."
I fully agree, Robert - after all, my guess is only a guess.
There is a similar chute under the bomb-aimer's position on some late Lancasters too.
If it's not a Window chute, then my second guess would be a downward and rearward viewing blister which might serve two purposes - to scan the area underneath the aircraft in case of attack from beneath, and/or, to check that the bomb bay is empty? (or was there a window into the bomb bay from inside the aircraft for checking this?)
Re the angular metal Window chutes you refer to, these are also seen, in several versions, on the starboard side of some Lancaster noses. If I recall correctly, the Lincoln in the RAF Museum at Cosford still has one fitted.
and much to my surprise I pulled the Lancaster at War series out, carefully hunted for the same feature and found that you are 100% correct, Alan - many of the late model Lancs feature the identical plexiglass bulge (scoop) that is on the Halifax photo I have.
I concurr, it has to be a window dispensing chute of a design type incorporated late in the war as I could't find an example on any aircraft pre-1945. Funny thing is I've never noticed this before nor seen any written description anywhere ...
I don't believe it would be a very effective viewing window as it certainly wouldn't be optically flat so any view would be distorted.
A lot of the heavies did have a downwards and rearwards siting pane of a fair size but those that feature this "scoop" do not.
Failing a definitive answer I believe your identification is accurate and factual so your's is most definitely the best answer available. I'm just surprised I'd never noticed that detail on the Halifax before.
Speaking of which, with the exception of the 1987 edition of Halifax At War by B. J. Rapier were any other books in this series ever published?
Yes, there were a number of the 'At War' titles; Spitfire 1&2, Lancaster 1,2&3, Hurricane 1&2, Wellington, Me Bf110, Dakota, Bristol Blenheim, Bomber Squadron, R.A.F.
Whoever posted the scan - thank you! That is the exact item. Nice job with the technology. The shots are really clear. Hope to get some identification hits but I'm still wagering it is a window dispensing chute.
Got me looking for what it is as well. I am pretty sure its not for window as the flare chute is in the back.
However I have another question relating to the pictures above. Many pictures show the Navigators side window painted over. Was this a squadron/group thing and in which period was this done.
Hey, Phil! ... nice to see you on the case of the unidentified scoop! It's a bit of a mystery ... was rather hoping Ian might pop onboard with a clear cut explanation ...
I look forward to positive i.d.
Re: the navigator's windows - it seems to me this was an individual thing strictly for black-out purposes and I imagine it was simply a case of extending the night black paint over the windows. I don't believe it applied to specific Groups or Squadrons just individual a/c.
but again am still uncertain - the "scoop" (for want of a better word to descibe it) appears to be open ended and I can't imagine it would be much good for observation as being curved it would likely provide a distorted view. Aside from which the aircrew would have to stick their head down in it. So it still remains unclear as to it's exact purpose.
Also, some S.D. Halifax seem to feature some sort of transparent bulged attachments on their bomb bay doors - typically three on the port side. One text I have alludes to the fact that they may be lights of some sort but I can't think of why or for what purpose. These seem to be employed by No 462 Squadron Halifax and are on Hallies that are heavily outfitted with all types of RCM -Mandrel, ABC, etc.
Any suggestions? Again, I wish I could post a scan ...
Since your post regarding this mod I carefully scrutinized a fair portfolio of Halifax aircraft and have found that a number of Mk III's do indeed seem to feature a small transparent blister aft of the air speed pitot. It's a much smaller item apparently and in all likelihood is for observation (even though I wonder exactly how much one could see from it). I don't think it had any other purpose than that. The larger "scoop" definitely is open ended and would seem to have additional purpose. Some examples of this larger "scoop" even seem to have a small instrument sticking down into it and I have no idea what this measures ...
Some examples of this smaller blister can be found on
HX266 - a Mk III of 466 Squadron
NA624 - a Mk III of 578 squadron
LK830 - of 578 Squadron
JD467 - a B Mk2 srs 1
and even LV907 at one point.
I found an example (JB911)a B Mk II Series 1 which clearly features a large observation blister on the underside fuselage about where the Preston Green ventral gun turret was sometimes installed.
Anyhow it appears that throughout its manufacture these blisters popped up from time to time on the Halifax(no pun intended!).
It's a small detail but appears to be more than an anomaly ...
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