hello,
wonder if someone could shed some light on some entries in my grandfathers log books.
Every so often there is a little certificate pasted in which is titled " Summary of Flying and assesments for year commencing"
at the bottom is obviously what was a stamp with an Officers signature on. can someone please tell me what the following means
11 A.G.S. Andreas I.O.M
Also how long would it take for a pilot to go on operational duty. His log book starts in 1941 training on Magisters through Oxfords and Ansons. but he doesnt register any ops until July 1944. He was assessed as an above average flight instructor april 1943. Was it normal to be a VR and train to be a flight instructor, and do that for 3 years first.
Also in his log book it has crossed out LAC,Sgt,P/O F/LT, and has S/LD not scratched out. I cant find any mention of him on the internet or in other records.
Sorry for all the questions but Im a fascinated novice trying to make sense of log books and diaries here!
11 Air Gunners School, Andreas, Isle of Man - one of the many stations at which Air Gunners were trained.
As for pilot training, it was not unusual (and still isn't) for a good pilot to be 'creamed off' on become an instructor before getting close to Operations. Some were not at all happy about this but who said the Air Force was a Democracy!
Your Grandfathers Service No. changed to 123296 when he was commissioned. He was promoted thus
Sgt. to Pilot Officer 1/5/42 (London Gazette 10/7/42)
Flying Officer 1/11/42 (LG 1/1/43)
Flight Lieutenant 1/5/44 (LG 19/5/44)
This follows the expected promotion pater for an officer at that time. He may of course have held temporary or acting ranks between and after the dates shown but these were not usually published in the Gazette
Don't worry about asking questions - you will never learn if you don't and there are lots of people always willing to try to help
thanks so much for the answers to my questions. i have one more if you dont mind. He went to Holme on Spalding Moor june 43 with 76sq it clearly lists that in the log book. What squadron would he have been with then from 41 till that time?
I have no way of knowing that. His log book should give a clue though. Postings were normally recorded at the back of the book. Failing that, are you aware that his next of kin can apply for a copy of his service record? His service record will give all his postings and if you add that info to the detail of his flights as per the log book you can build up a pretty comrehensive picture
If you have any documents you need 'translating' feel free to e mail me direct with a copy.
As an aside, do you know if he went by the nickname of 'Maxie'
found the postings at the back of the log book. will send you a copy for translation if you dont mind! I dont recall my grandmother saying anything about "Maxie"
thanks ever so much for your help.
My reference to 'Maxie' relates to a Flight Commander on 76 Squadron call Maxie Freeman and it seemed to much of a coincidence that there might be 2 S/Ldr. Freemans on the Sqn at the same time. If your Grandfather flew to Dortmund on 1/1/45 and Hemmingstedt on 7/3/45 then he is 'Maxie' - otherwise not.
"LW696" is the serial block of the aircraft. I suppose one could equate it to an automobile vehicle identification number (V.I.N.) The serial number remains with the aircraft for it's life regardless of what squadron or facility it was assigned to and what aircraft codes it would then accordingly bear.
In this case LW696 was one of 185 EE-built Halifax B/A Mk 3 constructed between May - June of 1944.
As for what a "Second Dickie" was - a Second Dickie was a term denoting the assignment of a second pilot typically a rookie or "Sprog" pilot and these flights were undertaken to give a neophyte some experience and exposure to Operational Flying with a seasoned and usually veteran aircrew. The Second Dickie often performed some of the functions of the Flight Engineer and assisted the pilot with take-off and landing by handling the undercart, flaps and perhaps even relieveing the pilot at the yoke for a spell.
Second Dickie flights were typically employed prior to the Pilot taking his own crew on Ops and were meant to be a educational tool outlining many of the challenges of missions with first-hand experience.
Something doesn't qiute fit, however. You said machine LW696 was built sometime between May-June 1944, but this aircraft was shot down by a German night-fighter at Daubhausen, Germany on 30/03/44 (March).
Any ideas?
I'm still not sure if this number (LW696) was a military serial number or the manufacturers (English Electric) serial number and is there any way of finding out what exactly the letters and numbers L W 696 stood for.
Had all Halifaxes LW prefixes, did LW mean long wing, for example? Why didn't they call the machine AB123?
185 EE-built. What does 185 denote?
You're information regarding "Second Dickie" was really helpful, it cleared a lot of confusion.
In case you're wondering why the interest. I'm living in Germany and working in Daubhausen where LW696 was shot down and a group of local residents recently hauled the last remaining motor, which was buried 4 metres deep, out of the ground. They have restored the motor and are planning to put it on permanent display in the village, in the near future. One of the group, a pilot himself, is particularly interested in the serial number LW696 and it's origins.
6,178 Halifax a/c were built .
LW696 just happened to be that point on the serial lists reached at that time - serial blocks mostly beginning with a double letter (but not at the start of the production in 1939 - L7244).
LW had nothing to do with 'long wing'.
The Serial is a Military one and nothing to do with the manufacturer (in this case English Electric)
As has been mentioned, Serials were allocated in Blocks. Sometimes a particular Block wasn't issued. Equally, Blocks for a particular type of aircraft did not run consecutively.
As Robert has said, think of them like car Reg. Nos. I and O were not issued as prefixes for UK cars. There is nothing more complex or any hidden meaning with a Serial No.
Kenny Clack, the pilot of your aircraft had done his first tour with the same Squadron (76) and collected his DFM. He was only 20 when he died.
The second pilot Mogalki had only been with the Sqn for a few days.
Mr Guy Edwards gave me this information many years ago.(about 1975)
This aircraft was delivered to 76 squadron, on either 29 or 30th March 1944. It was signed for and air tested. Shortly afterwards it was made ready, and set off on it`s first operation, Nuremburg. 3 hours later it was destroyed by a nightfighter flown by Martin Becker using `Scrager Musik`, It came down, south of Wetzlar ? somewhere near Daubhausen. 7 of the 8 aircrew were killed.
There was one survivor. G.L.Edwards. Air Gunner (mid upper)
He said it took about 15 seconds for the plane to blow up after it got hit. He was propelled through an opening gap as the fusilage `unzipped` in the explosion. The others had no chance of getting out.
The remains of the aircrew were identified by G.L. Edwards, then temporarily buried where they died near the wreckage. (The German authorities were very efficient and meticulous in logging the names of all servicemen and passing on names to the International Red Cross). They were exhumed and re-buried at Daubhausen war cemetary in 1947, where they remain to this day in a `comrades grave`.
The `Second Dickie` was Molgowki of the Royal Canadian Air force.
The Pilot, K.E.Clack was The youngest Squadron leader in the Royal Air Force. He was a squadron flight commander. The DFM was from an attack on the Tirpitz on, strangely, 31st March 1942. Some of the crew killed that night in 1944 were on the raid in 1942. This made Clack only 18 years old at the time. He and the crew made 3 attacks on the Tirpitz in all.
So they finally dug out that engine and got it on display. I wonder if they will part with any bits of it? I`m sure My mother would be very interested. She was married to the Wireless operator/air gunner (1335550 L.W.A.Peall. Sgt). My elder sister was born on April 2nd. 1944.
I hope this is of help to those enquiring into this aircraft. Might I suggest that the enquirer look at 76 squadron. also the links to Wiklapaedia and Tirpitz. This is quite a well documented crew and aircraft.
Would the person living in Germany please contact me as I am most interested in information relating to this incident.
Many thanks,
John.
I'm not sure where you got your information from, but "The Halifax File" states:-
Contract 1808/C4/C Halifax Type B/A.III batch quantity 260 made by English Electric Co. Ltd
serial number blocks:- LW346-LW348; LW361-LW397; LW412-LW446; LW459-LW481; LW495-LW522; LW537-LW559; LW572-LW598; LW613-LW658; LW671-LW696; LW713-LW724.
Batch LW671 - LW696 delivered between 29th February 1944 and 3rd March 1944.
Have to concede to you on this one Paul and it would explain the discrepancy as to when she went MIA.
Source was Rapier's "Halifax at War" Charts for Entry into Service. They only give fairly generic info in 4 basic categories: No. built, Type, Serial Block & Date Constructed. The Halifax Files is obviously a more comprehensive & accurate source because there is a far more detailed breakdown of the batches.
At the very least it explains how an aircraft was shot down before she was built!
Thanks, Paul that should help clear Peter's mystery a little.
