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the government's initial, optimistic estimates

October 25 2009 at 5:49 PM
Rob  (no login)
from IP address 173.11.94.1

Obama declares swine flu a national emergency
The declaration, signed Friday night and announced Saturday, comes with the disease more prevalent than ever in the country and production delays undercutting the government's initial, optimistic estimates that as many as 120 million doses of the vaccine could be available by mid-October.



"...the government's initial, optimistic estimates..."
Recall the optimistic estimates of a national health care system? This is a prelude to a national health care disaster. The government will screw up
anything it touches. The bigger the gov't the bigger the screw up.

The reason H1N1 is an emergency is because our government is a mess on health
care. They can't even protect us from a threat that was predicted months ago.
How are they going to run a national health care program when they can't run
Medicare, Medicaid or the Social Security programs that have existed for
decades?

 
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(no login)
173.63.51.169

swine flu shots

October 25 2009, 7:08 PM 

Today, I was wondering how many people on this message board are going to the get the swine flu vaccine. I wonder if any of the concerns from the anti-vaccine people have any merit whatsoever. If I had extra time, maybe I would read thru their arguments, but I don't. I don't really want to get the vaccine, but I probably will when it becomes available.


 
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(Login VincentJames)
173.63.51.169

Oh, look, death panels for real re swine flu worst case scenario

October 25 2009, 7:33 PM 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/weekinreview/25fink.html

October 25, 2009
Worst Case: Choosing Who Survives in a Flu Epidemic
By SHERI FINK

New York state health officials recently laid out this wrenching scenario for a small group of medical professionals from New York-Presbyterian Hospital:

A 32-year-old man with cystic fibrosis is rushed to the hospital with appendicitis in the midst of a worsening pandemic caused by the H1N1 flu virus, which has mutated into a more deadly form. The man is awaiting a lung transplant and brought with him the mechanical ventilator that helps him breathe.

New Yorks governor has declared a state of emergency and hospitals are following the states pandemic ventilator allocation plan actual guidelines drafted in 2007 that are now being revisited. The plan aims to direct ventilators to those with the best chances of survival in a severe, 1918-like flu pandemic where tens of thousands develop life-threatening pneumonia.

Because the mans end-stage lung disease caused by his cystic fibrosis is among a list of medical conditions associated with high mortality, the guidelines would bar the man from using a ventilator in a hospital, even though he is, unlike many with his illness, stable, in good condition, and not close to death. If the hospital admits him, the guidelines call for the machine that keeps him alive to be given to someone else.

Would doctors and nurses follow such rules? Should they?

In recent years, officials in a host of states and localities, as well as the federal Veterans Health Administration, have been quietly addressing one of medicines most troubling questions: Who should get a chance to survive when the number of severely ill people far exceeds the resources needed to treat them all?

The draft plans vary. In some states, patients with Do Not Resuscitate orders, the elderly, those requiring dialysis, or those with severe neurological impairment would be refused ventilators, or admission to hospitals. Utah divides epidemics into phases. Initially, hospitals would apply triage rules to residents of mental institutions, nursing homes, prisons and facilities for the handicapped. If an epidemic worsened, the rules would apply to the general population.

Federal officials say the possibility that Americas already crowded intensive care units would be overwhelmed in the coming weeks by flu patients is small but they remain vigilant.

The triage plans have attracted little publicity. New York, for example, released its draft guidelines in 2007, offered a 45-day comment period, and has made no changes since. The Health Department made 90 pages of public comments public this week only after receiving a request under the states public records laws.

Mary Buckley-Davis, a respiratory therapist with 30 years experience, wrote to officials in 2007 that there will be rioting in the streets if hospitals begin disconnecting ventilators. There wont be enough public relations spin or appropriate media coverage in the world to calm the family of a patient terminally weaned from a ventilator, she said.

State and federal officials defend formal rationing as the last in a series of steps that would be taken to stretch scarce resources and provide the best outcome for the public. They say it is better to plan for such decisions than leave them to besieged health workers battling a crisis.

You change your perspective from thinking about the individual patient to thinking about the community of patients, said Rear Adm. Ann Knebel of the Department of Health and Human Services.

But some health professionals question whether the draft guidelines are fair, effective, ethical, and even remotely feasible.

Most existing triage plans were designed for handling mass casualties. They sort injured victims into priority categories based on the urgency of their medical needs and their potential for survival given available resources. Much of the controversy over the state plans focuses on two additional features.

These are exclusion criteria, which bar certain categories of patients from standard hospital treatments in a severe health disaster, and minimum qualifications for survival, which limit the resources used for each patient. Once that limit is reached, patients who are not improving would be removed from essential treatment in favor of those with better chances.

A version of these concepts was outlined in a post-9/11 medical journal article that suggested ways to handle victims of a large-scale bioterrorist event. The author, Dr. Frederick Burkle Jr., said he based his ideas in part on his experiences as a triage officer in Vietnam and the gulf war and on a cold war-era British plan for coping with a nuclear strike. Dr. Burkle said that during the gulf war he once instructed surgeons to halt an operation and work on another patient who was more likely to survive. Surgeons later returned to the first patient.

Dr. Burkles ideas were key aspects of guidelines Ontario authorities drew up after SARS to plan for avian flu and other pandemics. This approach and one by a team of Minnesota doctors were modified by groups developing similar guidelines in the United States.

There were important distinctions. Dr. Burkles original paper did not anticipate withdrawing care from patients and stressed the need to reassess the level of supplies sometimes on a daily or hourly basis in a fluid effort to provide the best possible care.

Some states triage guidelines are rigid, with a single set of criteria intended to apply throughout the severe phase of a pandemic. That disturbs Dr. Burkle. I have said to my wife, I think I developed a monster here, he said.

Recent research highlights the problem of a one-size-fits-all approach to triage. Many state pandemic plans call for hospitals to remove patients from ventilators if they are not improving after two to five days. Studies show that people severely ill with H1N1 flu generally need a week to two weeks on ventilators to recover.

There is also controversy over what values and ethical principles should guide triage decisions, how to engage the public, and whether withdrawing life support in the hospital and withholding it at the hospital door are distinct.

Normally, removing viable patients from life support against their or their families will would be considered murder. The New York-Presbyterian Hospital employees who participated in the recent exercise said they would not comply unless given legal protection.

They also never figured out what to do with that hypothetical patient who had his own ventilator, said Dr. Kenneth Prager, a pulmonologist and ethicist. The issue of removing patients from ventilators, he said, was so overwhelming that it precluded discussion of further case scenarios.

Sheri Fink, an M.D., is a staff reporter at ProPublica, the independent nonprofit investigative organization.


 
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(Premier Login rbmac5)
Forum Owner
173.11.94.1

They have this in Flori-duh now, or maybe...

October 26 2009, 5:54 AM 

...just drawing up plans. Can't wait till we go national
with HC. I can't believe this is happening. It's Owellian
for chrissake. It's stuff we used to giggle about in 4th
grade and guffaw at in high school. Yet, plainly, we're
"there." I never thought I'd see AmeriCCCa reach this point.
And how quickly and easily we slip right into it. I think
the problem has been that the US is a "stealth" welfare state
with a growing number of it's population used to entitlements
from the government. As a chronically sick person I say it's
damn scary. Hence the part of my motto "stay healthy."

Re:

Buy Guns
Buy Gold
Stay Healthy.

 
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(no login)
84.71.215.16

Swine flu

October 26 2009, 2:42 AM 

hmm, I was going to ask you all about this, I have been wondering whether the have it or not. Over here, every time they announce someone has died from swine flu in the papers, the next sentance is 'but they did have an underlying condidtion.' and I guess that's the category we fall into. So I think I will have it. One of the things that bothers me is that some type of vaccine contain the immume system boosting element (can't recall what its called) and I think I recall Waid saying we don't want to be taking anything that might boost hairy cells...obviously! Any thoughts folks?
Nicky

 
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(Premier Login rbmac5)
Forum Owner
173.11.94.1

I'll take it when the loving caring govt comes up with it...

October 26 2009, 5:48 AM 

....we have a shortage. Doncha know if Bush was in office
the left would be screaming bloody murder, "Bush is killing
out children!" I can see it all now. Presently, we are told
to get used to all this (re: raging unemployment--it's the
new normal).

I think it's wise to consider getting the shot. I already
have had the seasonal flu shot--and survived, as usual. I
don't think (statistically) it'd hurt one bit to have it.
The trouble is that in the new dumbed down AmeriCCCa we just
can't get it in a lot of places, yet.


 
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(Premier Login rbmac5)
Forum Owner
173.11.94.1

Hey Nicky

October 26 2009, 6:04 AM 

What's the "take" over there on all this US crap
across the pond? Anyone really interested, or have
you guys seen it all before?

I have a relatives in Germany who drop in. They say
to me, we come here and see that the US is so rich
we can't believe you are complaining about anything.

I dunno--except in the news--and I almost exclusively
listen to FOX (Sky news over there where you are). I
was at Camp Pendleton last week and ran into a Brit
officer? I couldn't tell and we were in a hurry so I
didn't ask about his rank--but--he worked for NATO
and was at Pendleton to brief the Marines on Afgh.
So, in the muddle of rushed conversation he mentioned
that--I believe--the Telegraph in the UK was a bit "off"
on it's presentation of the news. He mentioned he watched
CNN here and I said CNN stood for the Communist News
Network--so we both have a skewed understanding of each
other's views. This is not unusual. But it does help
if one realized they don't see the whole picture.

 
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(Login whatamIdoing-)
66.124.70.110

Adjuvant

October 26 2009, 11:07 AM 

One of the vaccines contains squalene, which is an extract of shark's liver (or brown rice, or olive oil, or a bunch of other things, but shark liver is the typical commercial source). It is an 'adjuvant', which are substances you use to attract immune attention to something that might otherwise be ignored.

I don't know what it's mechanism of action is, but can tell you that most of what you'll find on the internet is highly likely to be wrong, because squalene is on the Gulf War Illness conspiracy theorists' panic list. (It's also sold freely in the US as a supposedly harmless "dietary supplement".)

None of the US vaccines contain this particular adjuvant. None of of the US flu vaccines (seasonal or H1N1) contain any adjuvants. Therefore only thing that a US HCLer really needs to be careful about is making sure that they get a killed (needle-stick) vaccine instead of a live (nasal spray) one.

-w.

 
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Michael
(no login)
24.109.198.227

Hope I didn't make a mistake................

October 26 2009, 3:46 PM 

Here in Canada....the flu shot was available for the first time (pH1N1);

I took my 7 year old daughter and got the shot.

BUT, the only ones available for now HAVE the adjuvant!

I guess I will be a guinea pig.......hopefully it is OK with my system.

 
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(Premier Login rbmac5)
Forum Owner
173.11.94.1

hopefully it is OK with my system.

October 26 2009, 5:27 PM 

You and daughter will probably be fine. You've probably had similar shots
over the years with regular flu???

 
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Michael
(no login)
24.109.198.227

Re: hopefully it is OK with my system.

October 27 2009, 3:30 PM 

Thanks....I hope so, yesterday I was quite sure it was the correct path...today I was mixed......now again, I am thinking it is correct.

 
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Rob
(no login)
173.11.94.1

You're welcome...odds (stats) are way in your favor...

October 27 2009, 8:21 PM 

...once in a while someone somewhere gets
a bad deal but almost everyone gets the
desired reaction--no flu, fun times.

 
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(Login whatamIdoing-)
66.124.70.110

Probably not worth worrying about

October 26 2009, 5:38 PM 

They've been squalene in vaccines for a dozen years in Europe; I think if it actually caused problems, somebody would have noticed by now.

-w.

 
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Will
(no login)
98.216.70.6

Re: swine flu shots

October 26 2009, 3:19 PM 

I would not think twice about it. My wife got one at her job the other night. Other than a blue-ish tint to her skin and an incredible appetite for sex, she is the same.

 
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Roberta
(no login)
98.217.92.67

Re: swine flu shots

October 26 2009, 4:53 PM 

Hi,

My PCP told me that I have to get the regular influenza and swine flu shot. I was supposed to get one last week, but due to a sinus infection I couldn't. I had to wait for the antibiotics to leave my system. I will get one or both on Thursday depending on availability.


 
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(Premier Login rbmac5)
Forum Owner
173.11.94.1

So far in the richest state in the nation, number...

October 26 2009, 5:32 PM 

...7th largest economy in the world, the raging liberal state of California keeps moving the dates and hasn't been able to offer folks like me a shot yet. They keep moving the dates: middle of Oct, 1st of Nov, middle of Nov. I love it. Freaking 3rd world. You may, or not, appreciate my skepticism over a national health care system.

 
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