I'm really happy

To have a 'fellow explorer' in this vein! Thanks for your input.

You're right, the human condition is such that most of these grand endeavors can't work because of "pollution" from individual members.

But ........... there ARE examples where it HAS 'sort of' worked. The charters and constitutions of countries are really pretty good examples of that.

And I disagree with you that it's essential to clean up individuals first before anything solid can come out of it. That would be "nice" for sure ...... but it's really not necessary.

Presenting a goal and vision is far more successful than attempting to change individuals. Once individuals see how a good thing works they usually spontaneously work on themselves to adapt and align with that new wonderful project.

You find that even Jesus ........ told his disciples NOT to focus on the qualifications of new believers. He said, "let them grow up together and then at harvest time you separate the tares and burn them." So, in other words, you MAY have to eliminate detractors but you give them plenty of time to cooperate and comply and catch the drift and then if they still buck you after you've established yourself ......... you ditch 'em.

Also, there's a 'self-cleaning' effect that comes with diversity of venue and opinion. Where one group may be fixated on something in error, a completely different perspective from a different group often reveals it.

Once people are stimulated to think outside of the box of self-interest and start thinking of good for all mankind, they often transcend into a higher plane of attitude.

There has to be group effort though. The lonely guru sitting on his mountain peak will always only affect a very small handful of loyal followers.

-Vince