A discussion group for all fans of Arkansas high school football and college football. This is the place to share your opinion on the state of football in Arkansas in general, to break news, to give reports on games, to "run smack" (as long as it's clean, on-topic and not too personal), and to read and respond to others' viewpoints. Here are the rules: 1. Please keep it clean. 2. Please keep it on the topic of Arkansas football. 3. Have a laugh!
How do you think P.G. will do next year
by Diz#30
I think well do just as good as we've done this year, if ont better, i mean yeah sigmon is the best runninback prairie grove has probably ever seen, i mean the only way other teams tckle him is by gettiun 10 or 11 guys on him and just hanging on or tripping him, I will be next years starting fullback, and i have been wrorking my but off in the weight room, and i hope to be just as good as sigmon, i mean i will have a great line and thats probably 75% of a runningbacks yardage. We are definately gonna miss tate and hootie, but weve still got the twin towers and derrick livermore, so i think we'll do just as good, with caleb smith and john dibiase swithching out at halfback position, just keep suporting the tigers no matter what, ttyl.
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 7:38 PM from IP address 198.70.248.159
shoot man i hope we do just as good as we did this year. We started out a little rough, but once we got the hang of things we roled like no other. So i think with the line and the backfield we will have next year.... we should do just as good. and tate....ur the man.. hit u know who.
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 8:12 PM from IP address 198.70.248.126
i would just like to say that we have the best fans in the state! you all make me proud to be a Praire Grove tiger! Yall were there for us through thick and thin and i would just like to say thanks to all of yall for the support! I will try my hardest to not let yall down my dream is to see us go all the way to state!
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 4:52 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
Tate you are exactly right!! Prairie Grove fans are the best! No matter what happens we are always there. We will ALWAYS stand behind yall!! I mean what other schools fans would paint their chests when it is 30 some odd degrees outside?(Reed,Bobby,Cole and Dave) I hope you guys go all the way. You don't have to worry about support, beacause the whole town is behind you guys. No matter where you guys wind up playing your playoff game you better believe Me and Reed will be in the bleachers yellin loud and proud for ya!! Good luck tomorrow night guys~ I'll be yellin for you!!! Oh ya~~ Hit you know who HARD for me!!!
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 5:16 PM from IP address 69.4.202.70
Atkins is 3A and Hector is 2A, but Atkins is a small 3A and Hector a big 2A. The two are 15 miles apart and have never played in high school football. What's up with that?
How long will the Red Devils run?
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 9:05 AM from IP address 209.151.113.87
I just have one thing to say. The Tigers got real lucky to beat SC, (real lucky) so don't brag to much. And as far as Berryville goes, hey it took the Tiger's to take a cheap shot, and i mean (a cheap shot) to stop the Bobcats from coming back the second half and beating the Tiger's. Watch the film on the Berryville game and see all the hold's, late hit's and the thing's the ref's didn't see. Then ask yourself (are we really that good) Good luck against Greenland, and if by some chance you get by them, round two will be alot different.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 10:51 PM from IP address 162.39.144.113
holds go on every play and there was no chance of berryville ever comming back and i am not bragging i have alot of school pride! i am not a dirty player if i kock you down ill help you up tell you good job and do it again. i know the person that made the late hit he is a very good guy on and off the field he would never dream of hurting someone much less ending there season no football player likes to see that happen to another. it took greenland 3 overtimes to beat westfork who we beat 34-8 you do the math and tell me honestly who you think will win.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 11:07 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
Nice job Tate. You are right. He is a good player on and off the field. People need to get over the Berryville game. It is in the past. It was not an intentional late hit like everyone thinks. Maybe NW needs to really watch the tape a little closer. I am glad to see your Tiger Pride. I am very proud to be a Tiger. Good luck tomorrow nigt!
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 9:55 AM from IP address 69.4.192.5
I'm not sure just how much respect I have for the Prairie Grove program. The issue over the Berryville late hit should not be whether or not Berryville should just get over it...why should they? It's not like anyone from Prairie Grove EVER expressed a shred of remorse for taking out another teams's athlete for a season. The fact that it was accomplished with a cheap shot makes the program look even dirtier. And about the Shiloh game...good luck allowing their offense to play only 9 minutes in a game again. Like it or not, those types of game scenarios are luck, not skill (and it's not like PG put up huge numbers with their offense even though it was on the field basically all night). I suspect that if PG and SC mathced up again, the outcome would be much different.
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 12:37 PM from IP address 144.30.69.89
Annonymous,
You don't think at ANYONE from PG showed any remorse? How would you know. I know that the player responible did, and I know of others that called to check. Also maybe if your newspaper over at Berryville, David McNeal, would report the facts, not his hot-headed opinion, maybe you would get the real story.
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 1:06 PM from IP address 69.4.192.5
Look, I'm sure that the PG coaches wish that kid had not gotten hurt. But they never addressed the issue. They should have. I have not seen where any representative of the PG program has spoken to the issue. And yes, the incident was a while ago; but the consensus seems to be that Berryville should just role with these kind of punches. That's fine...I just wonder how people in the PG program would handle it if the tables were reversed.
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 1:58 PM from IP address 144.30.87.14
Re: How do yall think berryville will do against ozark ???
by Tate #61
well anything is possible but i have played berryvill and well not to be rude but yall had beter play alot beter game than yall did against Praire Grove
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 8:29 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
dude we dont go out there to just cheap shot everyone. i personaly know the guy that hit him late he was extremely sorry and honestly did not realize he was out of bounds. he called the following monday along with our head coach to check up on the guy. i am sick and tired of hearing about it. so please man quit insinuating that we are all cheapshoters.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 10:52 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
Dude? Hey look if you don't know when your standing in the middle of a track, and not on grass then he need's to sit down for awhile. It was a cheap shot, you need to realize that DUDE. I am sure you tigers all looked at the film of the game, just like Berryville did several times. He didn't know he was out of bounds, give me a break.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 11:01 PM from IP address 162.39.144.113
yes i watched the film many time with the player that did the hit he is very sorry but when you play you get tunnel vission and all you want to do is stop the guy with the ball. the qb was still running in a foward motion and all he was doing was trying to do was stop him if you watch the film you will notice that it was not a devistating hit but just a nudge with his shoulder that knocked him down
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 11:10 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
Dude I have seen the tape too. He was not in the middle of the track when he got hit. GET OVER IT. Tate is right. Our team are not cheap shotters. Football is football. GO TIGERS!
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 10:00 AM from IP address 69.4.192.5
Re: Re: How do yall think berryville will do against ozark ???
by Bobcat06
Yeah well our sophomore quarterback didnt do too good at all against ozark .. we should of won that game , we had many chances to score against them but he kept it to himself but i guess its a team effort right ? where u from ??
Posted on Nov 15, 2003, 12:30 PM from IP address 12.43.15.108
The tigers got lucky the night they played Shiloh and at Berryville they had to take some cheap shots. Making a trip to the Rock, think not, enjoy while you can next year Shiloh and Berryville will be #1 and #2 seeds. The tigers might make it if they can play with Gravette and Farmington, and don't forget Green Forest. See Berryville and Green Forest both are down to 3rd string QB's since mid season.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 10:38 PM from IP address 162.39.144.113
uhh lucky is winning by like 1 or 2 points not 18! if you havent noticed our defence is #1. shilo got beat fair and square! now about berryville the qb didnt get taken out untill late in the 3rd quarter so if they were going to beat us i think they would have been beating us long b4 he got taken out! you need to shut up about the so called cheap shot! for one thing if it wernt for there stupid field he would have never been hurt also he should have stoped running once he was out of bounds! our defence doesnt alow a yard when they see foward motion they stop it.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 11:01 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
option 2, GET OVER IT. We didn't get where we are by cheap shots. We DID play a heck of a game against Shiloh. Prairie Grove Tigers are a good bunch of players. I am sure we have some that mouth, just like any other team. Why do you have to keep saying that we give cheap shots? Is it because you can't give credit where credit is due? Football is a rough sport. I HATE to see any player get hurt, but it does happen. I have had a son get stitches over a late hit. But I know that it was just that. A late hit, not a hateful hit. If you play, you can expect to at some point have an injury.
GO TIGERS!
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 10:06 AM from IP address 69.4.192.5
dkTiger and Tate #61, i guess the Berryville program has no other choice than to get over it, do they. Since thing's cannot be changed now. As far as the film goes, well i think most everyone here has seen it. It was a very late hit and it sure looked like it was no mistake to me, since i was standing not twenty feet away from the spot he got hit. What got me a ref was standing right their and took his time about throwing a flag even. What is done is done, but don't come on here and try to tell everyone bull**** about it, don't say anything if your going to try and white wash what happened. And you know something else, notice i said i was on the PG sidelines. I am not from Berryville
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 8:42 PM from IP address 166.102.26.140
You ar right Berryville has no other choice, but to get over it.
Guess what I was two feet from the play and I am not on the PG team! I am not a player.
It was a late hit, very late. No one is disputing that. When he hit him it was not a hard hit. He bumped him no the shoulder and thought he was knocking him out of bounds. I know the kid he would not hurt a fly. What do you want? Don't come on here cussing me telling me not to white wash the situation. I'm not. It is people like you that want to keep a situation built up just to cause trouble. What was your job on the sideline, or are you afraid to give away your anonymous position?
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 9:11 PM from IP address 69.4.202.64
What is done is done if you dont want to get hurt than play basketball are something. football is a very phisical sport people are expected to get hurt. when someone gets hurt noone likes to see that! i personaly am very sorry for they guy getting hurt but if that would have happend on any other field he would have gotten up and walked away from it. as for the person that made the late hit he is extremely sorry and you bashing him does not help the situation! so please leave it be!
Posted on Nov 15, 2003, 11:45 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
Prairie Grove are going to go pretty damn far. With linebackers like a.j. jefferson and mason pinkley and david taylor there defense is incredible. And jeremy tae omg is so frekain good. he might look like a fat ass but his speed and his agility to smack the **** out fo people is incredible. and with cody sigmon and slaughter there a force to be wrecken with. they lost to dover and after that there defence has been in the top 10 oin state and there all in the news papers blowing every team out of the ater. Jeremy tate is a natural born leader to kick ass and ive been watching tiger film for a while watching there games and travis grogan is the only good thing greenland has goin for them tigers are goin to stop a mud whole in there ass
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 11:25 PM from IP address 69.4.202.134
You need to clean your mouth out. I think the Tigers are really good too. It doesn't take foul smack talk to prove it. If you want to really help the Tigers,clean it up and be a positive supporter.
Go Tigers! Good luck Friday Night
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 10:09 AM from IP address 69.4.192.5
I don't know what will be longer. The ride up to the Pioneer Nation or the ride back to the Watermelon City. Batesville should handle the Cats easily. We're just lucky they take 4 teams in the Playofs now. Remeber the good old days when only the Conferance Champs made the playoffs? Anyway Batesville 45 Hope 14! It's gonna get ugly quick and Miss America ain't showing up Bobcats!
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 4:07 PM from IP address 65.73.21.7
The Colts screwed up this year. I was greatly depressed. They lost to Marion first game of the season. What the heck was that about? So sad. They pretty much had to kneel on the ball every second half for the rest of the season, too bad they weren't like Clinton Gore Squaws and run up yardage and points but oh well. You know what they will make up for it by going all the way to Little Rock again. Redeem themselves. The Colts are true Champions and will prove it to the state. I just hope by some miracle Pokie makes it far enough to taste the mud on their faces as the Colts stomp all over their little Redends.
I am sure all of you are glad that I am back. I brought lots of fun to the forum last year and plan to do it again.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 1:18 PM from IP address 67.64.9.125
Rivercrest lost to Marion? That's almost impossible!
by Hoghead
Billy I have a hard time believing this. But if it's true this can't be the Traditional Powerhouse Wilson Rivercrest Colts. As Marvin Gaye would say "What's going on? I really want to see Pocohantas lose! I mean all of sudden these deadbeats have a season to die for and they're talking like it's a regular Playoff team year in and year out! I remember when Graduation was the biggest thing that ever happened in that Schools football Stadium! Pokey and the Boys better hope they don't let the likes of Prescott and Nashville get a hold of them. Bring it on down to South Arkansas Pokey and take your whuppin like a Man!
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 4:18 PM from IP address 65.73.21.7
The Colts are still a powerhouse team. They were coming off a loss in the Championship game last year and entering the season a little too confident and unprepared for the Marion game. Some early slip ups, some one sided ref calls and 60 minutes later there they are on the losing side of the football 12-8. It hasn't happened since. They've held their opponents to just 72 points all season while scoring over 330. They've got a habbit of scoring early and then taking the starters out. They easily could have pulled an Osceola and run the score up on several opponents but opted to let the 2nd stringers play most of the game, kneeling on balls and running it up the gut time after time. They can score at will but have been sportsmen and held back most of the year.
I too hate Pokie and Piggot for that matter. A team that is a perinial loser has some breaks go their way and finally puts together a team worhty of getting on a football field and know they are running their mouths like this is common ground to them. That running will stop soon. Piggot won't make it out of round one and Pokie wont make it past round two.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 4:56 PM from IP address 67.64.9.125
The Clinton Gore era. HA HA. The name alone has got to say it all. It reeks of corruption and disease. Has that foul smell of week old unwashed booty hole. He's probably finally weaseled his way through his last season at Osceola. You had to figure it was coming after his reasons for departure at Forrest City. The guy has cheated since he took his first step in life much less his first step onto a football field. It just took a losing season for the higher ups on the school board to actually give a dang. Coach Gore has tried recruiting players from other school districts. Probably saw to it that nearly every player aside from the kicker actually got passing grades. You know Coach Gore reminds of the Little League coach that would falsify some birth certificate to get some 23 year old Mexican kid on his 12 and under team. Oh wait, an older player that is ineligible? that happened? You've got to be kidding me? Coach Gore sucks and this should be the end of his era of corrupting the youth of Osceola and surrounding areas if they were good enough to pay moms rent to move to town to get the kid on his team. No more running the score up on weak opponents to make your players look better after you get stomped by teams like Rivercrest who have to take a knee and run it up the middle the whole second half to keep from crushing you. It makes you wonder how long the Gore has been using ineligible players. Well at least since Forrest City, probably since he started caoching and figuring out how to get away with it. You know if you have to cheat to win you don't deserve to play and that is extremely sad for all the good, decent kids on the Seminole squad who played their hearts out this year, battling for a position. Fighting for a chance at college. Coach Gore, his greed, his weakness for cheating has cost those kids their season and possibly their future. Should they have forfieted all those games? sure. so Coach Gore deserves to lose his job, he knows what he is guilty of. IT's been proven before that he is a no good cheat, lets hope the school board takes action this time so no more kids have to suffer. Why let him get away with his actions at the kids expense? The players are not guilty of anything (not including criminal activity) other than listening to their booty hole coach.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 12:32 PM from IP address 67.64.9.125
You know every now and then you get a decent dinner in the school cafeteria or prison but not too often. And every now and then some pansy a**es in the weakest conference in Northeast Arkansas win a few games. But that's not too often either, once ina blue a moon season. But Pokie deserves some props this year. Yeah, I know I was tough on them last year and well maybe that wasn't right but you know what? they deserved it. They flat out sucked and that's why the only crown they had come the end of the season was the cardboard one they got at BK on their way home from a devastating and humiliating loss. I am sure this year will be much the same. Should Pokie make it past the second round they should make a call to the cleaners and have them get the basketball jerseys ready because they'll be done with the glory season. Sure Pokie beat Newport a team that stomped them this year. Top bad it wasn't the same Greyhound squad rather than the young up-n-comers that will remind the Redskins next season that they aren't all that. Believe that! You can take that to the bank. I sure would love to see the Skins play the Mighty Colts. Ouch. It'd be great to see a horse riding an Injun for a change!!
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 12:15 PM from IP address 67.64.9.125
It's that time of year again.... Where each team gives All or Nothing! Win or Go Home! Yeah It's deffinately PLAYOFF TIME again! That being said what are everyones first round predictions for this Friday?
Posted on Nov 11, 2003, 10:47 PM from IP address 66.233.135.169
A message to the Prairie Grove Tigers: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE beat Coach Larkin and his Greenland Pirates. They deserve whatever they get! They are rude, cocky, and just plain unsportsman like! Yall are awesome, forget whatever anyone has said about you guys. Forget that you are still getting bashed for the late hit. To heck with them all! I believe that if any team has a chance to go up and beyond everyone's expectations its the Prairie Grove Tigers!!! Coach Abshier and his supporting coaching staff have worked wonders in past years! Go all the way Prairie Grove... One yard at a time, one touchdown at a time, one win at a time, and you will get where you want to be!!! Prairie Grove~~ Cinderella team of 2003 PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!
Posted on Nov 11, 2003, 7:39 PM from IP address 69.4.202.70
Hear this Prairie Grove: Your last game will be a loss at home, cause you aren't gettin past us Friday night!! We know everything you are gonna try and pull. We know who to watch. Did ya forget who we have at Greenland now? And why did he transfer? Cause Prairie Grove football never gets past the first round of playoffs....cause they finally play REAL TEAMS!!!
Posted on Nov 11, 2003, 8:16 PM from IP address 69.4.202.70
hey dude i know who wrot that and dud you suck! you walk like a gay duck and your slow! we dont care if you know our plays we will still make them work!! so why dont you keep your mouth shut till the game! 40 is all yall got. and if you se aaron tell him i said sup and i look forward to talking to him in track season!
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 5:03 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
This game is about the high school play offs, not about individual people. Go out Friday night play football and have fun. Everyone has a right to play for who ever he wants. This is not about that. Quit making it personal! Just go out and play football!
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 9:44 PM from IP address 69.4.202.64
All i've got to say is, PG didn't call out Bottoms, we called out greenland, but we also said, if bottoms is in the way, bottoms will get decked if he's in the way. Hey bottoms, since you know everything, lets see ya tackle sigmon come tomm night. I like that nice stance you've got over there on the end, i noticed IT DOESN'T WORK. Elkins was killing you when we saw trhe film. By the way, I've noticed bottoms gets the ball alot, YEAH RIGHT! I dont see why bottoms is evenm on here talkin crap, hthe only way he helps the team is by putting 11 people on the field. Oh yeah for all you people who dont know READ THIS>>>>>Zach Bottoms moved to greenland not because prairie grove wasnt doing good in state, oh no, he laft because Robbie Abshier took his starting spot at inside linebacker, and bottoms stuck his taiol between his legs and went right on over to greenalnd. Thats all i have to say on that subject. Oh by the way, since i hate greenland, your gonna loose, but to warren or nashville whoever it may be, good luck to you guys in the second round, itll be fun.
Posted on Nov 13, 2003, 7:18 PM from IP address 198.70.248.159
Can anyone tell me how they came up with the AAAAA South seeding? I am not sure I agree with it. Camden was beaten by Pine Bluff and Lake Hamilton. How can they be the number 1 seed? I thought it would look more like this. Benton-1,,,,Lake Hamilton-2,,,,Pine Bluff-3,,,,Camden-4,,,,,,,,,,,,or Pine Bluff-1,,,,,Benton-2,,,,,,,Lake Hamilton-3,,,,,,,,,Camden-4....I don't know much but sure am confused by the current bracket. Any ideas? Camden was beaten by Pine Bluff and Lake hamilton. Benton was beaten by Pine Bluff and Camden,,,,,,,,,Pine Bluff was beaten by Lake Hamilton,,,,,,,,,Lake Hamilton was beaten by Benton. Very confusing stuff!
Posted on Nov 10, 2003, 11:14 PM from IP address 24.204.60.90
As you suggested, I went to the Triple A website. It seems to me that they did not follow their own rules.
The first tiebreaker states (paraphrasing here) that if there is a 4 way tie they will pair up the teams. If this doesn't work then the 2nd tiebreaker is by points.
okay here goes. Pine Bluff and Lake Hamilton each had one loss in the four team field so they should go head to head to determine 1st and 2nd seeds. CF and Benton both have two losses in the four team field so they go head to head to determine 3rd and 4th seeds.. The Triple A did not follow their own rules. What sense does it make to have the two teams (Of the qualifing teams)that have lost more games be the top 2 seeds?Again we are not talking conference records we are comparing wins and losses between the qualifing teams. I sure would like to hear from someone at the Triple A that can justify the decision they made. According to most of the coaches I have spoken to, they are just as confused as I am. Hope
Posted on Nov 11, 2003, 9:29 PM from IP address 162.39.136.28
I believe you are confused because what you are trying to do is not pair up the teams, but rather pull the four teams from the rest of the conference and compare the records within the four. When you pair the teams, there is no team that has beaten all four of the other teams in head to head competition so it goes to points. If One of the teams had a perfect head to head record in pure pairing, then that team would not have to go to the next paragraph of the rule, which is the points paragraph. This is the way the AAA is, and always has interpreted the rule.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 8:30 AM from IP address 64.12.96.200
This is directly from the Triple A website. I:A1 Three or more tied teams shall first be considered in sets of two way ties. If more than two teams remain tied THEN the point system shall be utilized.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 4:52 PM from IP address 162.39.145.53
Maybe I cant count or maybe I just don't understand the point system even after looking at the AAA website. I am not the only one in the state that doesn't agree with the way this ended up. Several newspapers around the state have also predicted this differently even after the last game was played. Even the coaches from the different teams have voiced concerns. O Well, it is a done deal and tonight will tell the rest of the story! Good luck Lake Hamilton! You guys have come a long way and we will not forget how hard you have worked! You guys are awesome!
Just a fan and a Mom!
Posted on Nov 14, 2003, 1:49 PM from IP address 24.204.60.90
Did you hear about Osceola having ineligable players on their team. They were set to play in the first round in this year's playoffs at Newport, but has been stripped of all their wins for playing an ineligable player the whole year! The Arkansas Activity Association desided to move the 4th seat Piggott to take Osceola's 3rd seat, and move East Poinsett County from 5th to 4th seat. Piggott is playing Newport, and East Poinsett County is playing Pocahantas this Friday.
This is a bad occurance for all the people of Osceola, and I'm sure they will do the best of their ability to keep this from happening again!
Posted on Nov 10, 2003, 8:04 PM from IP address 66.76.199.133
Just really can't wait for the announcement that his lousy butt has been fired. He's a no good lousy cheat. A worthless peace of scum that corrupts the life of his players. Clinton Gore has no true sportsmanship. unless some school is ready for corruption they shouldn't hire him. Byltheville though would be the perfect chool. Prep school for prison. A Warden Gore heading up the team.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 12:42 PM from IP address 67.64.9.125
Pocahontas you need to stop being so cockey. You have just completed only one phase of your journey,which is conference. But now it is season two and it is playoff time. You may be talkin bout how you were undefeated in the season but it doesn't mean nothin in the playoffs. Good luck! and have a great post-season!
Posted on Nov 9, 2003, 10:56 PM from IP address 66.76.199.133
The mighty Grovers are demolishing all there opponents in classy fashion put mercy rule into effect then sending in the second teamers. many people say that they have an extremely good chance of going all the way if they keep up what they have going.
Posted on Nov 9, 2003, 8:57 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
uhh im sorry but did you call greenland a real team we shall see who wins and who loses. you can talk all the smack you want but come friday night we will see whats up. enjoy the show!
Posted on Nov 11, 2003, 5:35 PM from IP address 198.70.248.115
A free mud bath? I guess you are wanting to gloat about the Redskin season and who you whopped up on teams like Trumann, Harrisburg, the Newport Jv Squad. Well, gloat now sissy boy because your season is nearly over. Sad you won't even get to Little Rock.
Posted on Nov 12, 2003, 12:36 PM from IP address 67.64.9.125