most immediately, of course, i should explain my calling the character of Lu Siniang a 'bitch' -- sorry! however, i don't take it back, because what she says and what she does, sometimes, definitely would be what we classify as 'bitchy' today: spiteful, calculated to cause hurt, just plain *mean*.

but let me explain myself.

the person who is at the receiving end of this is david chiang's character Zeng Jing (Tsang Jing, i think). we know Siniang is furious with him because she blames him for her forced marriage to a man she does not love. why does she blame him, rather than her uncle, who locked her up and drugged her, or the man Bai Taiguan himself, who knowingly went through the ceremony with a dummy bride just so he could get her?

Her uncle would seem to be the most culpable -- locking her up when she refuses the marriage, drugging her so she is unconscious throughout the ceremony, and even getting one of the maids to go through the ceremony in her stead, so that when Siniang regains consciousness she finds herself irrevocably married. But her uncle has brought her up, and Siniang cannot stay angry with him under the traditional bonds of filial piety. Besides, her uncle's main reason for doing this is because he is rigorously opposed to her romance with the Emperor, who is to him a Manchu invader; the family, as loyal Han citizens who are working to restore the Ming dynasty, can have nothing to do with them. Besides, she was betrothed to this Bai since birth, as a token of her family's gratitude to the Bai family, who saved them when they were in trouble over their revolutionary activities. Her uncle, naturally, thinks this is more important than any romance. Siniang understands all this and cannot blame her uncle.

Her husband was her childhood playmate, and though she definitively rejects his advances as a lover, she has always had kindly feelings towards him. The story clearly shows that, after her wedding, she recognises his concern and his deep love for her, and she swallows her anger and determines to be faithful to him as a dutiful wife. She doesn't blame him either.

However, she did try to tell Bai, before the marriage, that she was already in love. Bai mistakenly believes the person she loves to be Tsang Jing, his best friend. And Siniang blames Tsang Jing because he was the one who persuaded Bai to marry her, by pretending to withdraw from the contest. She is furious that he has 'given her up' to his 'rival', when she was never his to give. And she is doubly furious because, to her, Tsang Jing had no reason to help her uncle trick her into marriage, he had no reason not to release her from the woodshed where she was confined, and especially he had no conceivable reason to go and tell Bai to marry her.

Therefore she is extremely cutting and, as i said, 'bitchy' to him. The one I especially remember is when he lies poisoned and dying, and one of his maids goes to beg her to see him, because, you know, he's in love with her and a visit from her would perk up his spirits. She refuses, in anger and bitterness and misery, to help the man who is responsible for her plight. The maid loses her temper and says she is heartless and cruel -- 'wu qing' -- and Siniang responds coldly that that is better than being in love with someone who hasn't the faintest interest in you -- 'zi zuo duo qing'. She was magnificent, and that performance sent shivers down my spine (which does not detract from the fact that that was a mean thing to say). And after that, in later encounters, she loses no opportunity to make barbed remarks to him, about his double wedding, for example.

Now, the day she learns why he assisted in her wedding, and all he did to help her, marks a stark change in her character and in her attitude toward him. He knew it was the emperor she loved, and risked his life to break into the palace to tell him. The emperor, angered that Siniang is going to marry, makes a dismissive remark, which leaves Tsang thinking that Siniang would be better off marrying Bai, who loves her. In the course of his palace trip he is poisoned, and injured. At the wedding, however, the emperor sends a flask of poisoned wine, meant for the uncle who has so continually opposed the relationship between himself and Siniang. Tsang is the one who drinks it for him, and nearly loses his life. And so on. Siniang realises her mistake, and recognises how much he loves her, and her attitude towards him softens and changes, which is one the indications of her growing maturity which Lin has pointed out in her post.

Siniang starts as an innocent young girl, but she was never sweet and submissive (like Fengxi, in 'laugh in the sleeve'). She was always strong-willed and she knows her own mind, as when she first refused to help the Fourth Prince in his bid for the throne, despite what everyone else said, and only consented when she fell in love with him -- it was entirely her own decision. The marriage to Bai shows how honourable she is, for she bends the strength of her will to serving him loyally and to forgetting her relationship with the emperor. As I said, there is a lot of good in each of the major characters -- deeply flawed, and yet deeply heroic, is what I said, I think. Her spite and her capacity for holding a grudge constitutes some of Siniang's major flaws, but I admire the fact that the writers were not afraid of making their stars imperfect in ways that are not always likeable. So that's why I said she was kind of a bitch. Does it make more sense now?

<quote>Also I wish the storyline character played by actor david chiang dai wai would tell michelle's character directly that he was fond of her & pursue her.
If he told her, maybe she won't end up forced to be marrying the wrong man.
I think she would decide from then on which man she want to spend her life with.
I also wish that david's character would rescue her when she was locked up by her uncle, he could have easily done that. If he done that michelle's family would not end up in tragedy.

I wished there were more scenes of michelle & david together such as when they were in the eatery restaurant.</quote>

I completely agree that the two of them are very very good together, there's definitely a great deal of chemistry going on there. I love the way she's lively and just wilful enough to be cute, and the way he gives in to her cajoling, and actually takes her to visit that famous courtesan -- that is very sweet.
However. It just is not possible that he tells her he loves her, because he is a junzi -- a gentleman. He knows she is in love with someone else -- a gentleman does not force himself upon a woman who belongs to another man. He knows she is betrothed to his best friend -- a gentleman does not step in between his best friend and said friend's sweetheart. It would not be honourable.

That's what Bai Taiguan says, too, that he wishes he had been enough of a gentleman not to marry a woman who does not love him.

And that is why Lu Siniang is herself such an honourable woman, she throws herself wholeheartedly into being a good wife, since the deed is done, and goes to the lengths of getting that Reverend Wu Ming to perform some rites to help her forget the emperor, which was rather foolish.

Maybe what you're saying is that Zeng Jing should have just dispensed with all that business about honour, about being a junzi? But that would have been so wrong for the story :)

I think tsang jing (david chiang's character) should informed his good friend (bai,tie koo) that sei leung don't love him at all & she's in love with someone else & let him make the decision from there on---to make an informed decision with all the situational facts given.

I think it would be a fair game of gentlemen if they made fair reasonable decisions.
Let the lady--sei liang decide who she will be with with informed information.

Why does sei liang liked the 4th manchu duke?
partly because he revealed his feelings for her, pursued her.

I think if tsang ching revealed his feelings directly to her & pursue her in the beginning, he would not lose out to the 4th duke (alex man) and she would like him, there would be no misunderstanding.

I think his uncle will approve of her marrying to a han man, gentleman and his good friend would gladly step out of his way since the woman didn't love him.

that Bai guy looked more like a middle-age man than a young man according to the storyline.

It's too bad there are VERY FEW scenes of tsang ching & sei leung together.
I liked the scene where sei leung suddenly visit him when he was scolding his maids for teasing him that he missed sei leung's bracelet.

It was just a misunderstanding between michelle's character & david chiang's character. She thought he was being insincere & on his uncle's side.

I think he should save her from being lock-up, he could have easily done that --cover his identity with a masked and find a way to free her, I don't think her uncle could have stop him in martial arts fight.

david's character knows she was in love with the alex man's character (emperor), he should informed her of what happened when he tried to notify the emperor & asked her what she would like to do & let her make the decisions with informed facts.

David's character clearly knows that her uncle forced her into a marriage & that a maid pretends to be her in the marriage ceremony, he should have waken her up or assisted in carrying her out of there before its too late.

David's character should informed his male friend (Ba Tie koo) the groom that michelle's character did love him & that her uncle is forcing her to marry him and let him make the decision on what to do with the arranged marriage.

As a good friend, david's character is in a good position to inform him of the true situation.

well lin i think we'll just have to say we think differently on this issue :) i kind of thought siniang and the fourth prince fell in love with each other quite naturally as a result of being together for a while. and i think zeng jing thought he was acting for the best when he conspired in the forced marriage, because he knew bai taiguan loved her. yes of course he loved her, too; maybe he was afraid of appearing selfish if he entered the love plot? i don't know. but somehow, i think it wouldn't have been right for him to declare his feelings. even in the later portions of the serial, when siniang's husband was dead and his own wives killed as well, it was impossible for them to be together. i remember she wanted to leave him because he got drunk and she was really uncomfortable about what he said to her while drunk ... seems that she found it impossible to accept him even when all misunderstandings were cleared up and they were free of the marriage bond. he loved her. he knew she didn't love him. for him that's all there was to it ...

I found a new michelle's discussion forum at
http://pub50.bravenet.com/forum/4259992413/ but it doesn't have more discussion threads there.

I have post a thread there.
I think you might be interested in relying to it.

Well I am glad that you are here to discuss at this discussion forum or else it would be much silence in here.

I wish they could have been together ---sei liang & tsang ching in "dynasty I" getting married or live as friends nearby in seclusion.
It's too bad he died in the ending and I wished he would revealed the truth to her that the 14th duke have attempted to murdered him but he kept silent about you which cause her to be manipulated by the 14th duke to killed the emperor.

Sei liang just view him as a good friend because he didn't express his feelings toward her & pursue her.

The 4th duke expressed his fond feelings & pursued her.
He comes to visited her whenever he missed her even he was crowned emperor.
I think sei liang was moved by his visits when she thought it was dangerous for him to secretly escape out of the palace to see her.

I remembered some scenes which involved them together

1. where tsang ching was fighting with her jumping to the roof-top when she was masked in black & dressed in black to return the scrolls back to the palace.
Tsang ching discovered her and fights with her and she dropped her bracelet and he caught it smiling.
I was thinking what he was smiling about--he knows it was a girl's bracelet, the intruder was a girl, so what, why was he smiling??

From then on, it seem he have falled in love with the owner of the bracelet--the young woman he never saw??

2. Other scene that was kind of funny & sweet was when his maids teased him of having to return the bracelet to lui,say leung and he scolded them and suddenly lui say leung appeared asking what they were talking about.


*****what do you think???***

I agree with you! About the bracelet and his falling in love? I was kind of confused and I had to track back to see where exactly the two of them met so that he could fall in love with her ... I didn't realise that he'd actually fallen in love just because he'd picked up her bracelet :)

And the bit where he was scolding his maids for teasing him about the bracelet, and she came in and his manner changed immediately ... beautiful. The two of them have wonderful chemistry, I'm not surprised Lin so much wants them to end up together! :)

you totally agree??

I don't mind disagreements since we are just discussing about a topic and this its a discusssion forum.

did you want the storyline character tsang ching or you want the 4th duke to be with lui say leung?

oh ... what i want? what i want is for her to be happy i guess, usually. i agree that the two of them (tsang jing and sei leung) look really good together, i agree that the scene you described was exceedingly sweet, and i agree that if he'd done all that stuff you mentioned maybe they would all have been happier? but what i want has nothing to do with what happened, i guess, and the thing is i believe that given this set of people, and given the kind of people they are, this kind of ending was inevitable. i think that siniang loved the emperor beyond anything and the 'best' ending in my opinion is for them to somehow work it out and live in a grass hut together in the mountains and raise goats, but that's not going to happen with the responsibilities of the emperor, and siniang's loyalties toward her family and beliefs, and so on.

Do you think lui say leung makes a cute on-screen couple with the 4th duke (alex man)?

I think lui say leung makes a cute on-screen couple with either the 4th duke or tsang ching in this story.

I think it would be possible for lui say leung & tsang ching to be together as a married couple or lovers since both are moral righteous & don't really care for materialistic world. In personality I think they make a cute on-screen couple.
If she was NOT arranged to be married to other man by her uncle & forced by her uncle in marriage & that man didn't become his good friend.

I don't think the 4th duke want to give up his materialistic world & his political ambitions so he can not be with her.

Do you remember the scene where tsang ching's male friend (lui,say leung's financee) asked tsang ching ---why tsang ching didn't marry at his age? (I wonder how old he is suppose to be in the storyline).
Tsang Ching answered that he have NOT meet a woman that he is fond of.
(I thought he lied, yes there is, it was lui,say leung).

Which man do you think loved her the most?
---the 4th duke was obssessed with her?
---tsang ching?
---her fiancee from her arranged marriage?

i agree that mi xue has fantastic onscreen chemistry with both alex man and david chiang, she would look good with either of them as onscreen lovers.

i find it impossible to answer the question who loved her best. I've been thinking about it, and they all love her a great deal. Let's first dismiss Bak Takgun (poor man), who is less interesting because well, you know. He loves her so much he first wanted to withdraw from the triangle and let her marry Tsang Jing, and later went mad when he believed she was unfaithful, through the work of the monk. However his sufferings are generally uninteresting and the product of the Emperor's cunning, so let's leave it.

The Emperor demonstrates his obsessive, possessive love by wanting to meet with her all the time, at the risk to his life and her reputation; Tsang Jing demonstrates his noble, sacrificial love by protecting her and striving to make her happy, as well as being extremely <em>un</em>happy himself when she has that misundersanding about him. I don't know how to say one or the other loved her the more.
Remember when Tsang Jing held the Emperor hostage? And Sei Leung was so worked up she fainted, and in an instant both men flashed towards her, upset and concerned? I think, that's it, in that instant they were drawn together in their common love of her, despite all their existing quarrels. It could be argued that the Emperor <em>doesn't</em> love her as much as he claims to, since he did threaten to kill her in order to escape, but at the same time Tsang Jing wasn't threatened by the fact, he didn't release the Emperor when he saw Sei Leung in his hands? And so forth. So er, I don't know ...

But to return to your prevalent and often expressed wish to have had these two men act with mi xue more often as her onscreen lovers, in their youth -- <em>yes</em>. I wish that too, not least because that would mean more mi xue serials available for me to watch ...

I think that bai,Tie Gru (michelle's fiancee), who suppose to play a young man didn't fit the role too well since he seem like a middle-aged man in his 40's even though they knew each other since childhood.
don't you think??

I don't think both the 2 men 'bai' man & 4th duke should have spend any time in that brothrel with that famous prosititute since they are in love with a woman such as michelle. why are they even there if they said they are in love with michelle?

I think the 4th duke is fond of her but not deeply in love with her as tsang ching since he go to the brothrel and flirt and slept with that famous prosituite. He was obessive because he can't get what he wanted. He felt he have lost when he was fond of.

That bai man---he liked michelle but was very disappointed that he found out his finacee was in love with other man besides him so he resorted to drinking. He's not that much in love with her. he just cannot handle the disappointing truth.

Tsang ching's character---I think he is the right man for michelle in the storyline since he only deeply loved her, nobody else, no flirting or slepting with other women before marriage to his 2 other different women out of gratitude. Tsang Ching should not have married the 2 women he didn't love, he married them out of gratitude.

I remembered the scene that was kind of funny when michelle dressed as a man and asked tsang ching to take her to that brothrel to seen that famous prostitute.

I remember that scene where tsang ching's maids turn against michelle after he married one of the maids, the behavior & attitude towards her completely changed after the marriage---all hostile & jealousy but before they were teasing tsang ching about his feelings towards michelle.

Haven't seen Dynasty yet. Am planning to buy it though. Sounds interesting. Can't imagine Mei Suet as spoilt and playful though, have only seen her as Princess Chang Ping.

Is it me, or is everytime Mei Suet in the same show as Jiang Da Wei, its always Jiang Da Wei in love and Mei Suet's character not interested. They would've made an interesting pair.

which other series have you see them together besides the 2 atv drama series---dynasty I & princess cheung ping.

as far as I know david was paired up as a couple with amy chan sau man in 3 series which include

1. atv's 1980's version ---'the green dragon conspiracy'----not released on vcds boxsets in original cantonese language but its released in dubbed-vietnamese language.

2. tvb's 'fate of a clairvoyant'
2. tvb's 'fist of law'---have not watch this one.

for this series on vcd or dvd, it would be interesting if they did alternate endings back then??

so do i!

question: did they remake thi series with Kong Wah as the emperor or the series with Louis Koo as the emperor? which one is it?

so do i!

question: did they remake thi series with Kong Wah as the emperor or the series with Louis Koo as the emperor? which one is it?

Sort of..

Kong Wah acted as Emperor Yung Zheng (the character which Alex Man acted in this Dynasty) in "King Of Yesterday and Today".

But Louis' is different from Kong Wah's character, in fact he's Emperor Qian Long, the son of Emperor Yung Zheng. And that serial is called Remembrance. I shall consider it as TVB's Dynasty 2. In this version, David is still the Tsang Jing we knew, while the character Lui Sei Liong falls on the hands of Shirley, Michelle's sister. And this version is awful (in my view!)