We have always been a socialist society although it was called something else, we have remained intact over the years. We cannot live with it. traditionally, all regime changes came from the centre of china, the agricultural part. same as Maos current regime. Its too much of a change. we will end up like Afganistan.
Also, hard to count 1 billion votes... So easy to corrupt and change a few million without being noticed, it will never work.
.....My View.....
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The Hong Kong Special Duties Unit is not a civilian coorperation but a Unit in the Hong Kong Police Force with one purpose Search and destroy threats of terrorism.
This message has been edited by operation12 on Jun 2, 2004 6:25 AM This message has been edited by operation12 on Jun 2, 2004 6:25 AM This message has been edited by operation12 on Jun 2, 2004 6:01 AM
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Chinese society has ALWAYS been centred around the interests of the collective while Western style liberal democracies have been centred around the interests of the individual. It is because of this fundamental difference that Western style democracy cannot work in China.
That being said, China still strives for the Marxist ideal of democracy, which in turn was based on the idea of "mobocracy," i.e. favouring group rights over individual rights.
This message has been edited by Diunei on Jun 2, 2004 2:34 PM
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which is of course why the US (Democracy) has no power at all while China (one party state, i refuse to use Comunist because it rearly is not) is the worlds only hyper power
which is of course why the US (Democracy) has no power at all while China (one party state, i refuse to use Comunist because it rearly is not) is the worlds only hyper power
ooops no thats wrong!
That is due to US belligerence, NOT liberal democratic values. Tell me, how "democratic" was it to segregate blacks? How "democratic" was it to murder Salvatore Allende and Dr Mossadegh, for example? Unless you are ready to admit the majority of USA citizens were/are white supremist, belligerence is the reason for American hyper power. Same for Britain during its heyday.
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"That is due to US belligerence, NOT liberal democratic values. Tell me, how "democratic" was it to segregate blacks? How "democratic" was it to murder Salvatore Allende and Dr Mossadegh, for example? Unless you are ready to admit the majority of USA citizens were/are white supremist, belligerence is the reason for American hyper power. Same for Britain during its heyday."
First of all, the vast majority of Americans AREN'T racist, and dont try to tell me they are... I live here, I know. You DONT live here, and you dont know.
And since America isn't the only country to have practiced racism or segregation in its history... it is disengenuous to conclude that it is "beligerent" on this basis.
And EVERY society in the world has had institutional racism... but America is one of the only ones to correct this. Minor De Facto racism is still a problem... its a problem in every society... but De Jure racism is a thing of the past.
Oh, and Allende was killed by Chileans, not by Americans. Americans gave moral and financial support to a native Chilean opposition movement... but we didnt actually KILL him.
As for Mossadegh, he was killed by Iranians, at the behest of the BRITISH government protecting the profits of "British Petroleum," after Mossadegh threatened to nationalize the oil industry.
If you want to know why America is a hyper power, read guns germs and steel.
Temperate climate, natural resources, lots of agriculturally rich land, lots of good ports, lots of space, and an educated workforce thanks to European immigration.
United We Stand.
"Now, while still pursuing the method of realising our overall strategic concept, I come to the crux of what I have travelled here to say. Neither the sure prevention of war, nor the continuous rise of world organisation will be gained without what I have called the fraternal association of the English-speaking peoples. This means a special relationship between the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States. Thus, whatever happens, and thus only, shall we be secure ourselves and able to work together for the high and simple causes that are dear to us and bode no ill to any. Eventually there may comeI feel eventually there will comethe principle of common citizenship, but that we may be content to leave to destiny, whose outstretched arm many of us can already clearly see.
Winston Churchill
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As diunei said, we are used to a selective group, wealthiest or most powerful, ruling the country. This has built up anger with the farmers which start civil war every few hundred years...
HBN2025, Democracy is not even obeyed by the western world...
.....My View.....
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the problem with a one party state is that there is no other option, of course they are going to be corupt they have a monopoly on power!
Coruption will always exist because we are humans not ants, but at least in a multi party system the people can express when they want change or when they are dissatidfied with the goverment. In China there is no way to express dissatisfaction with your goverment peacefully as its not permited so presure builds, and what happens when there is too much presure? Well I think we have seen what happens. Can you rearly be teling me that Chinese people are less able to handle freedom then western people? Becuause I know that is not true!
Mandarin is just too hard to start with and aparatly I still have a peasant Yang gui zi accent but I was bullied into it
Anyway back on topic how about if Deng had not deposed Zhao Ziyang what are the chances for a velvert revolution eastern european style? I dont think it would have worked personaly but you never know
Mandarin is just too hard to start with and aparatly I still have a peasant Yang gui zi accent but I was bullied into it
Did you watch Chinese CCTV sometimes they show foreign students in Perfect Mandarin after just 2 to 3 years.
Anyway back on topic how about if Deng had not deposed Zhao Ziyang what are the chances for a velvert revolution eastern european style? I dont think it would have worked personaly but you never know
1989 is a tragedy. Disaster for both Students and China. But I think the Chinese government was left without any choice more. If students won, then China is NOW already in disaster situation, complete chaos. Taiwan went independent, Chinese again fighting against Chinese inside China.
Again, 1989 was a big pity for every Chinese, including communists.
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But I will don't like CCTV, I don't like any government controlled TV stations.
Phoenix is OK in my view.
British guys are most very good ones according to my personal experience. Basically 99.99% Western people are very civilized and gentle types, it is good to exchanges views.
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First of all, the vast majority of Americans AREN'T racist, and dont try to tell me they are... I live here, I know. You DONT live here, and you dont know.
Statistics of the US prison population, economic standing of minorities and status of Native Indians would disagree.
And since America isn't the only country to have practiced racism or segregation in its history... it is disengenuous to conclude that it is "beligerent" on this basis.
The USA as we know it today was built on belligerent policies, this you cannot deny. Breaking promises to the Amerindians to stay out of the Ohio river valley and launching deadly expeditions against the rest of the Amerindians in the West. And conquering California, Arizona and New Mexico from the Spanish was certainly belligerent.
And EVERY society in the world has had institutional racism... but America is one of the only ones to correct this. Minor De Facto racism is still a problem... its a problem in every society... but De Jure racism is a thing of the past.
I am NOT trying to paint "Generation X" as racist, but the aforementioned facts and the legacy of the past certainly say differently.
Oh, and Allende was killed by Chileans, not by Americans. Americans gave moral and financial support to a native Chilean opposition movement... but we didnt actually KILL him.
No, but your government used proxies to do the actual dirty work, which works out to the same thing.
As for Mossadegh, he was killed by Iranians, at the behest of the BRITISH government protecting the profits of "British Petroleum," after Mossadegh threatened to nationalize the oil industry.
So the British were also American proxies at that time. And having a puppet in the Shah certainly benefitted the US economy.
If you want to know why America is a hyper power, read guns germs and steel.
Temperate climate, natural resources, lots of agriculturally rich land, lots of good ports, lots of space, and an educated workforce thanks to European immigration.
Which means the population benefitted from belligerent policies of those before them. If the western American territories weren't conquered and other states in the Americas coerced, the population living in the US could not have reaped the benefits.
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What interests of the collective are U talking about??
What communism are U talking about?
How do U know that Chaina have "tradition" of socialism and democracy in China will
not work??
Do the Chineses people have ever the right to choose??
As i have post in the past China is not Communist county anymore!
It is capitalist country!
In the future (dozens of years), while more and more Chines will take part
in the economic revolution China having today and will be expose to western
democray , the current "leaders" will have to say Bye Bye!!
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"Statistics of the US prison population, economic standing of minorities and status of Native Indians would disagree."
This is DE FACTO racism that exists due to hisorically tragic trends which cannot be corrected expediently in a legislative sense. The American government has ended DE JURE racism and has even take steps to reverse the process with Affrimative action. This type of racism exists in EVERY multi-raced society. You will find similar statistics with the aboriness in Australia, with Blacks in South Africa, with Indians and Pakistanis in Britain, with arabs and north africans in Europe, with Mestizos in Argentina. Claiming that the US is PARTICULARLY guilty in this sense is entirely ridiculous and only exposes your utter ignorance of race relations here, and around the world.
"The USA as we know it today was built on belligerent policies, this you cannot deny. Breaking promises to the Amerindians to stay out of the Ohio river valley and launching deadly expeditions against the rest of the Amerindians in the West. And conquering California, Arizona and New Mexico from the Spanish was certainly belligerent."
What an entirely cretinous suggestion. By this definition, the entire European continent was built on "beligerence." They clonized the world and subjugated native peoples. Yet you dont seem particularly eager to point fingers at them? The arab world was built on beligerence too, since they conquered North Africa, Spain, and the Balkans purely for beligerent purposes. You can count Russia in as well... since their expansion saw the wanton subjugation and conquering of the Uigyurs, Tartars, Finno-Hungarian peoples, Central Asians... among many others. While we are at it... we can count China, since they invaded Tibet against the will of the people that lived there. Some MIGHT describe that as "beligerent."
Yet despite these patently clear facts... you seem particularly eager to criticize the US as beligerent? Do I sense a double standard? The world is rife with civilizations and societiess that have achieved power and prominence through conquest and subjugation... and yet you decide to criticize one in particular... hmmmm?
"I am NOT trying to paint "Generation X" as racist, but the aforementioned facts and the legacy of the past certainly say differently."
And that just what it is... A LEGACY... one that is difficult to erase. But we are trying.
"No, but your government used proxies to do the actual dirty work, which works out to the same thing."
perhaps... but to cut out the middle man so to speak detracts attention from a crucial fact... that NOT ONLY did the US government oppose him... many Chileans did as well. That doesn't make it right by any means... but it is an important distinction nonetheless. Allende was NO SAINT... and ONLY RECEIVED 36% of the vote. A little known fact. According to the CHilean system however, you didn't need a majority... only a higher proportion than that of your rivals.
"So the British were also American proxies at that time. And having a puppet in the Shah certainly benefitted the US economy."
The British were Americna "proxies?" Umm no. The British resolved to do what they wanted to do... and we so happened to agree with them. The entire impetus and planning of the operation was born in LONDON... not Washinton.
"Which means the population benefitted from belligerent policies of those before them. If the western American territories weren't conquered and other states in the Americas coerced, the population living in the US could not have reaped the benefits."
umm yes... and if Britain had not colonized India, it would not have been a power... and if France had not colonized Africa, the indes, and the South Pacific... its power would have been diminished... if Russia hadn't conquered the caucuses, the Ukraine, and Siberia, its power would have been diminished. If the Bedouin of the Arabian peninsula had not embarked on a quest to conquere and convert North Africa and Turkey, Arab society would never have been prominent... So whats your point? There is a plethora of countries and societies that would not be where they are today were it not for the fact they didn't conquere and subjugate... yet you only seem to be morally distraught over one... hmmm?
United We Stand.
"Now, while still pursuing the method of realising our overall strategic concept, I come to the crux of what I have travelled here to say. Neither the sure prevention of war, nor the continuous rise of world organisation will be gained without what I have called the fraternal association of the English-speaking peoples. This means a special relationship between the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States. Thus, whatever happens, and thus only, shall we be secure ourselves and able to work together for the high and simple causes that are dear to us and bode no ill to any. Eventually there may comeI feel eventually there will comethe principle of common citizenship, but that we may be content to leave to destiny, whose outstretched arm many of us can already clearly see.
Winston Churchill
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If india wasn't colonized it would be better off than it is now. Have you seen how chaotic things are? Is not Sonia Gandhi winning the elections over the BJP not enough to tell you? India is not what they advertise, to take a real look, look beyond Indias State COntrolled Press.
.....My View.....
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no jackass... India would have been better off, but BRITAIN wouldn't have been. READING COMPREHENSION. jesus.
United We Stand.
"Now, while still pursuing the method of realising our overall strategic concept, I come to the crux of what I have travelled here to say. Neither the sure prevention of war, nor the continuous rise of world organisation will be gained without what I have called the fraternal association of the English-speaking peoples. This means a special relationship between the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States. Thus, whatever happens, and thus only, shall we be secure ourselves and able to work together for the high and simple causes that are dear to us and bode no ill to any. Eventually there may comeI feel eventually there will comethe principle of common citizenship, but that we may be content to leave to destiny, whose outstretched arm many of us can already clearly see.
Winston Churchill
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Learn to READ before you waste my time. Its irritating explaining myself twice... when you could have simply read more carefully the first time.
United We Stand.
"Now, while still pursuing the method of realising our overall strategic concept, I come to the crux of what I have travelled here to say. Neither the sure prevention of war, nor the continuous rise of world organisation will be gained without what I have called the fraternal association of the English-speaking peoples. This means a special relationship between the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States. Thus, whatever happens, and thus only, shall we be secure ourselves and able to work together for the high and simple causes that are dear to us and bode no ill to any. Eventually there may comeI feel eventually there will comethe principle of common citizenship, but that we may be content to leave to destiny, whose outstretched arm many of us can already clearly see.
Winston Churchill
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What an entirely cretinous suggestion. By this definition, the entire European continent was built on "beligerence." They clonized the world and subjugated native peoples. Yet you dont seem particularly eager to point fingers at them?
Absolutely. Europeans (particularly West Europeans) are not angels by any means. In fact during the Cold War, the West Europeans were very belligerent themselves, launching/supporting wars in Vietnam (France trying reconquest,) Egypt (UK and France over the Suez,) Algeria (attempted French reconquest,) Greece (supporting anti-socialists,) etc. And they are living off the riches they plundered during colonialism.
The arab world was built on beligerence too, since they conquered North Africa, Spain, and the Balkans purely for beligerent purposes. You can count Russia in as well... since their expansion saw the wanton subjugation and conquering of the Uigyurs, Tartars, Finno-Hungarian peoples, Central Asians... among many others.
Arab terror groups are certainly belligerent, there is no doubting that. But their governments are, on the whole, not that prosperous. And the ones that are generally collaborate with belligerent American policies (e.g. Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE.)
While we are at it... we can count China, since they invaded Tibet against the will of the people that lived there. Some MIGHT describe that as "beligerent."
That is a lie, Tibetans joined as a tributary state thousands of years ago, and Tibetans and Han Chinese intermixed between the various lands. So too bad for you, that is a poor example.
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"Absolutely. Europeans (particularly West Europeans) are not angels by any means. In fact during the Cold War, the West Europeans were very belligerent themselves, launching/supporting wars in Vietnam (France trying reconquest,) Egypt (UK and France over the Suez,) Algeria (attempted French reconquest,) Greece (supporting anti-socialists,) etc. And they are living off the riches they plundered during colonialism."
Not just Europe, Russia, and the Arab world too. Not to mention Japan (at first). So if you are going to criticize a country due to the fact that its "wealth and power is based historically on beligerent policies," then you have to criticize half the world... NOT JUST the US.
"Arab terror groups are certainly belligerent, there is no doubting that. But their governments are, on the whole, not that prosperous. And the ones that are generally collaborate with belligerent American policies (e.g. Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE.)"
not just the terror groups. Arab culture in general historically achieved prominence through conquest, and forced conversion. That is belligerence.
"That is a lie, Tibetans joined as a tributary state thousands of years ago, and Tibetans and Han Chinese intermixed between the various lands. So too bad for you, that is a poor example."
ROFL... so the Tibetans INVITED you to invade them? They WANTED you to come... they WANTED to be ruled by the CCP... LMAO. I get it now.
United We Stand.
"Now, while still pursuing the method of realising our overall strategic concept, I come to the crux of what I have travelled here to say. Neither the sure prevention of war, nor the continuous rise of world organisation will be gained without what I have called the fraternal association of the English-speaking peoples. This means a special relationship between the British Commonwealth and Empire and the United States. Thus, whatever happens, and thus only, shall we be secure ourselves and able to work together for the high and simple causes that are dear to us and bode no ill to any. Eventually there may comeI feel eventually there will comethe principle of common citizenship, but that we may be content to leave to destiny, whose outstretched arm many of us can already clearly see.
Winston Churchill
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Current Topic - Why Democracy in China is NOT possible.
