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F/A-22 vs Mig-31

October 15 2004 at 9:50 AM
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shocktrooper  (Login shocktrooper)

 
which one do you think is better, and why?


    
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Oct 15, 2004 10:35 AM
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Oct 15, 2004 9:50 AM


 
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Apex
(Login apexace2000)

F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 11:06 AM 

The F/A-22 Raptor was born to easily defeat Russian aircraft like the Mig-31, and to beat more impressive Russian Sukhois, I'll show that it is more than competent for this role.

Lets start with range: Mach 1.8 without afterburner.
The F/A-22 incorporates Pratt & Whitney's new F119 engine. Designed for efficient supersonic operation without afterburner use (supercruise) and with increased durability over today's engines, the F119 is a very high thrust-to-weight ratio engine. Advanced technologies in the F119 include integrated flight-propulsion controls and two-dimensional, thrust-vectoring engine nozzles

The F/A-22 engines produce more thrust than any current fighter engine, especially in military (non-afterburner) power. This characteristic allows the F/A-22 to efficiently cruise at supersonic airspeeds without using afterburner (supercruise). This capability greatly expands the F/A-22's operating envelope in both speed and range over current fighters that must use afterburner to operate at supersonic speeds.

Speed enables a smaller number of aircraft to control a far greater area, and enter and exit hostile areas quickly, reducing the time a pilot spends over enemy territory and reducing the risk to American lives

Internal weapons have eliminated aerodynamic drag which allows the Raptor to fly faster, further and higher while using less gas than conventional fighters who must carry pods, gas and weapons externally.

Now on to stealth, the Mig-31 pilot would never know who shot him down:

Radar signature approximately the size of a bumblebee, thereby avoiding detection by the most sophisticated enemy air defense systems
Signatures/emissions of sound, turbulence, and heat that can aid detection are reduced

Requires no direct assistance from electronic support aircraft that may be more easily detected Includes planform alignment of the wing and tail edges, radar-absorbing sawtoothed surfaces, an engine face that is concealed by a serpentine inlet duct, "stealthy" coating cockpit design to minimize the usually substantial radar return of pilot’s helmet
Through internal weapons placement, the F/A-22 eliminates multiple surface features that could be detected by enemy radar.

The F/A-22 possesses a highly stealthy signature that greatly reduces the enemy’s ability to find, track and target — permits access to defended areas that cannot be accessed by nonstealth platforms
First look/first kill in all environments: A combination of improved sensor capability, improved situational awareness and improved weapons provides first-kill opportunity against the threat
The F/A-22 possesses a sophisticated sensor suite that allows the pilot to track, identify and shoot the threat before it detects the F/A-22. Significant effort is being placed on cockpit design and avionics fusion to improve the pilot's situational awareness. Advanced avionics technologies allow the F/A-22 sensors to gather, integrate and display essential information in the most useful format to the pilot
Advances in low-observable technologies provide significantly improved survivability and lethality against air-to-air and surface-to-air threats. The F/A-22's combination of reduced observability and supercruise accentuate the advantage of surprise in a tactical environment






Houses six radar-guided AIM-120C advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (or two 1,000-lb class GBU-32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions in place of four of the AIM-120Cs) in the main weapons bay
Carries two heat-seeking AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range air-to-air missiles in side weapons bays (one in each bay)
A single M61A2 20-mm multibarrel cannon
Four external stations can carry additional stores (weapons or fuel tanks)
Gun system (Linear Linkless Ammunition Handling System) capable of feeding ammunition at rate of 100 rounds per second

If anything is more telling of the Raptor's superiority, its in this link:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=269944&messageid=1097342635&lp=1097456188




"To secure the peace is to prepare for war." George Washington and later Metallica.

 
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shocktrooper
(Login shocktrooper)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 11:16 AM 

Not really,

the raptor has a top speed of Mach 1.8 and the Mig-31 Mach 2.83!
the Mig-31 has a very powerfull radar long range capble of detecting stealth planes more easily(other modern Russian fighters also have very powerful radars).

The Mig-31 also has a very long range, because its a long range interceptor!

by the way do you know why the americans keep the blackbird in the hanger?
the Americans clame that if they keep the blackbird in the hanger it will save them alot of money, wich is true, but the Russian experts clame that its because of the
Mig-31, which can also be true!
In 1987 a Mig-31 chased a blackbird away from soviet territory, back to nutral waters.

 
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Apex
(Login apexace2000)

F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 11:34 AM 

LOL I can't believe we're having this argument, SR-71 Blackbird was 'stealth' in its infancy, all it had going for it is flying really high and really fast, and having some super-zoom cameras.

Yeah, the Mig-31's radar is pretty strong not enough to actually bounce one of the F/A-22, any current radar deflects off of the F/A-22 away from the source.

And oh yeah,.the Raptor's radar is more powerful than any known Russian craft's, so you're out of range too, its the most advanced radar system ever put into a fighter aircraft.


Take this quote as an example from the tests:
'In the first, USAF measured the Raptor’s ability to spot, shoot, and destroy an F-16 in a “first look, first kill” test. In the second, two F/A-22s had to destroy a “high-value airborne asset” such as an E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System aircraft defended by four F-15s or F-16s."

I'm sure the Mig-31's radar is more potent than an E-3 AWACS riiiiiggghhhhttt. Jeez..

Here's why the supercruise system is better than the Mig-31's conventional engines, imagine a sprinter (Mig-31) and an endurance runner(F/A-22), the sprinter is going to use his energy up early, limiting range, and the constant F/A-22 mach 1.8 is going to be all over the Mig like flies on sh!t.

Theres a reason supercruise is considered a desirable trait, and comparing that cold war relic Mig to the best fighter in the world is nearly sacrilege. The Mig-31 was a challenge to the F-15, certainly not the Raptor.




"To secure the peace is to prepare for war." George Washington and later Metallica.

 
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(Login Diunei)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 11:45 AM 

The MiG-31's radar is pratically a mini-AWACS radar, being an active fixed array type.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mig-31.htm


 
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Apex
(Login apexace2000)

F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 11:55 AM 

The Raptor's radar is better, also from Global Security:

AN/APG-77 Radar

The AN/APG-77 radar is the F-22’s primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. A Northrop Grumman-led joint venture with Raytheon is developing the active-element electronically scanned array radar. Northrop Grumman is also responsible for the radar sensor design, software, and systems integration.

The AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array that features a separate transmitter and receiver for each of the antenna's several thousand, finger-sized radiating elements. Most of the mechanical parts common to other radars have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable. This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electromagnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F-22's air dominance mission. The radar is key to the F-22's integrated avionics and sensor capabilities. It will provide pilots with detailed information about multiple threats before the adversary's radar ever detects the F-22.

The AN/APG-77 radar a novel type of electronically scanned phased array. In what is likely to be THE MOST ADVANCED AIRBORNE RADAR IN THE WORLD, individual transmit and receive modules are located behind each element of the radar array. The transmit function of the solid-state microwave modules supplants the traveling wave tubes used in prior radars like the APQ-164. The active, electronically scanned array (ESA) configuration has a wider transmit bandwidth while requiring significantly less volume and prime power. The system represents about half the weight of an equivalent passive ESA design. Each of the hundreds of individual solid-state devices generates only small amounts of power, but the aggregate for the entire array is substantial.

The F-22 s APG-77 electronically scanned array antenna is composed of several thousand transmit/receive modules, circulators, radiators and manifolds assembled into subarrays and then integrated into a complete array. The baseline design used thousands of hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects to make the numerous radio frequency, digital, and direct current connections between the components and manifolds that make up the subarray. Northrop Grumman Corporation, of Baltimore, MD, has developed an improved manufacturing process for F-22 aircraft radar components. The new process could result in a cost avoidance of nearly $87 million on the planned production run for the aircraft. By replacing the hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects with automated ribbon bond interconnects, the first pass yield of the subarray assembly has been vastly improved.

The AN/APG-77 radar antenna is a elliptical, active electronically scanned antenna array of 2000 transmitter/receive modules which provides agility, low radar cross section and wide bandwidth. The radar is able to sweep 120 degrees of airspace instantaneously. In comparison to the F-15 Strike Eagle's APG-70 radar takes 14 seconds to scan that amount of airspace. The APG-77 is capable of performing this feat by electronically forming multiple radar beams to rapidly search the airspace.

The system exhibits a very low radar cross section, supporting the F-22's stealthy design. Reliability of the all-solid-state system is expected to be substantially better than the already highly reliable F-16 radar, with MTBF predicted at more than 450 hours.

The APG-77 radar offers significant advantages over previous combat radars. Among its most attractive benefits is the integration of agile beam steering. This feature allows a single APG-77 radar to carry out multiple functions, such as searching, tracking, and engaging targets simultaneously. Agile beam steering also enables the radar to concurrently search multiple portions of airspace, while allowing continued tracking of priority targets.

The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

The F-22 and its APG-77 radar will also be able to employ better Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). This is accomplished by forming fine beams and by generating a high resolution image of the target by using Inverse Synthetic Aperture radar (ISAR) processing. ISAR uses Doppler shifts caused by rotational changes in the targets position to create a 3D map of the target. The target provides the Doppler shift and not the aircraft illuminating the target. SAR is when the aircraft provides the Doppler shift. The pilot can compare the target with an actual picture radar image stored in the F-22's data base.




"To secure the peace is to prepare for war." George Washington and later Metallica.

 
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Anonymous
(Login POLIZEI)
Soldiers

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 2:55 PM 

F-22 of course!



 
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(Login HBN2025)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 15 2004, 5:36 PM 

Problem is:

F22 will be massa produced while Mig-31 is only for Show.

Anyone know how seriously how many Mig-31 will be produced?



 
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shocktrooper
(Login shocktrooper)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 16 2004, 4:18 AM 

ok you guys, cool down, I know that F/A-22 Raptor is the best and is much better that Mig-31, I just wanted to know what other people think.
I argued with you about who is better, so that the conversation will last longer.

oh, by the way, about the amount of Mig-31s in service, well, My book says that there are about 250 of them, but www.warfare.ru says that there are about 350, other sites and books also give you a number similar to 250 and 350.


    
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Oct 16, 2004 4:20 AM


 
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Anonymous
(Login Qilai)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 16 2004, 9:02 AM 

"Problem is:

F22 will be massa produced while Mig-31 is only for Show.

Anyone know how seriously how many Mig-31 will be produced?"

i think you are getting mix up between Mig 31 and Mig 1.44 or S 37


 
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Anonymous
(Login HBN2025)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 16 2004, 3:29 PM 

""i think you are getting mix up between Mig 31 and Mig 1.44 or S 37""

Mig 1.44 is for matching up against F/A-22, then talking about Mig-31 vs F/A-22 is a bit out of order

Where is PAK/FA?
Isn't only PAK/FA to go head on head against F/A-22?



 
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(Login Sylent88)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 16 2004, 5:40 PM 

on paper yes f-22 is a flying saucer...it is unbeatable...theoretically..

but experimentally it has not passed rigorous tests and hasnt been operating in intense conditions...


major faults will show up when it enters service.....Just look how microsoft barks about the security of its OS products and yet they have major flaws in them....same concept here....


 
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(Login Hayq)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 17 2004, 12:15 AM 

let's not forget, America has had about a 13 year head start in developing a next generation aircraft.

one wonders whatthe militaristic nation of the USSR could have accomplished in those 13 years. Tu-160 is a perfect example, that bird performs better than B-52, B-1, and B-2.

 
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Apex
(Login apexace2000)

F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 17 2004, 12:21 AM 

@Sylent88,

F/A-22 Climatic Testing
Subjecting The Raptor To Environmental Extremes



Neither snow, nor rain, nor heat, nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.

This famous quote by the fifth century Greek historian Herodotus has been the unofficial slogan of US Postal Service for many years. But it could also be the motto of the Air Force’s McKinley Climatic Laboratory. With the exception of the “gloom of night” part—the lab’s overhead lights are mostly kept on—that saying sums up what goes on in this one-of-a kind test center in the Florida panhandle.

Conceived during World War II, completed in 1947, and extensively renovated fifty years later, the McKinley Climatic Laboratory can recreate nearly every weather condition that exists on Earth with temperatures in the two main test chambers ranging from minus 65 to plus 165 degrees Fahrenheit.

Every major US weapon system and its associated equipment make the trek to Eglin AFB to go through environmental testing at the lab. The F/A-22 (as it was recently redesignated by the Air Force) is the latest to be frozen, baked, deluged, snowed, blown, fogged, and humidified. The Raptor survived and successfully completed its intensive three-month test program in early September.

“We had a lot fewer problems with the F-22 than most jets we have seen in here,” says Kirk Velasco, the Climatic Lab team lead. “Overall, the Raptor performed pretty well.”



nto The Chamber

Raptor 04, the first developmental F/A-22 with a complete avionics system, is flown from the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB, California, to Langley AFB, Virginia, for an overnight stopover on 29 May. The Langley-based 1st Fighter Wing gets a taste of what is coming during the layover, as the wing is scheduled to become the first operational F/A-22 unit in late 2005. The fourth flyable Raptor built is flown to the Eglin lab the next day.

After arriving, the aircraft is prepared for testing and installed in the lab’s 252-foot-wide, 201-foot-deep, and 70-foot-tall main test chamber. An oversized thermometer on the outside of this hangar displays the temperature inside. When the indicator registers minus forty degrees, the temperature inside really is that cold, even though it might be ninety degrees outside. With its heavily insulated walls and ceiling, the facility is essentially one giant Thermos bottle.

Planning for the climatic test program began long before the jet touched down in Florida. Detailed preparations began in early 2001, but preliminary discussions began more than four years prior to Raptor 04’s arrival. This is not an unusual timeline.

“We had the Joint Strike Fighter test community here for an initial meeting in mid-July,” notes Velasco. “The JSF will be here in May 2007. Testing the F-35, particularly the STOVL [short takeoff, vertical landing] variant, will be a challenge. That’s one reason why we’re starting so early.”

Developing the test plan for the Raptor is relatively straightforward. “We basically look at what has been done before on other fighter aircraft and build on that experience,” said Brent Poulson, the F/A-22 Combined Test Force climatic lab program manager. “The F-22 also has an environmental specification. It is supposed to operate at a certain set of temperatures and under a list of specific conditions. We look at those requirements and match them with the particular tests we need to do and go from there.”

A cadre of people from the Air Force and the contractor team accompany the jet. Throughout the climatic test program, technicians, engineers, maintainers, and pilots from the Air Force and contractor team rotated through the lab. Approximately seventy F/A-22-related people are onsite at any given time.

Getting Ready

The standard press photo for a test subject in the McKinley lab most often shows an aircraft parked and covered in snow. The first photo, from 24 May 1947, shows six aircraft—including a Lockheed P-80—in the main chamber. The photos create an impression that the tests done in the lab are static. In actuality, the tests are almost all highly dynamic, with pilots in the cockpit, maintainers and crew chiefs working in the elements, aircraft systems operating, and engines running.



The lab is one the few facilities in the world where jet engines can be operated in a closed hangar, so air has to get in and exhaust has to get out in order for the engines to run. That air also has to be the same temperature as the test chamber. Otherwise, the results aren’t accurate.

The lab gets that much air from a huge storage tank outside the hangar. The tank provides up to 800,000 cubic feet per minute of either pre-conditioned hot or cold air (depending on the test) to replace the air inhaled by the engines on a real-time basis. The same amount of air goes in the chamber as comes out. When the tank is completely emptied, it takes approximately twenty-four hours to replenish the reservoir with conditioned air, particularly with extremely cold or extremely hot air needed for tests in extremely cold or hot conditions.

“Every project is unique,” adds Velasco, who has worked at the lab for more than eighteen years. “We had stealth aircraft in here before, so we have dealt with special materials. But every vehicle has its own unique tie-down requirements and ducting needs.” In the case of the F/A-22, a Y-shaped duct, fitted with a system to dampen the exhaust at the back of the aircraft and keep the rest of the tube cool, is built so the aircraft’s two engines can be run during the tests. A separate duct—one set up so the small door on the aircraft’s top-mounted auxiliary power unit can open—is constructed and installed by the lab’s onsite team.



Once installed in the chamber, Raptor 04 looks like a creature out of a science fiction movie. With ducting in place, the aircraft is tied down in multiple places (each tie-down being equipped with strain gauges to measure stress on the airframe during the tests) and perched on jacks so the landing gear could be cycled and the hydraulics checked. Several small, movable, modular buildings surround the aircraft to house the twenty or so people necessary (including a fire chief) to conduct each test. The picture is made complete by the ski resort-type snow cannons, wind machines on the floor or, alternatively, banks of heat lamps or rain making equipment suspended from the ceiling on a rack shaped to the planform of the aircraft.

The elaborate apparatus is necessary. The weather extremes, the sophistication of the tests, everything is geared to one goal: “We want to match operations in the real world. We want to see if the Raptor can take it,” Poulson observes.

Going to Extremes

Each of the environmental tests begins just like an F/A-22 flight. The pilot and crew chief perform a walk-around of the aircraft then the pilot climbs the ladder and straps into the cockpit—regardless of the conditions in the chamber. The pilot starts the engines and operates various systems on the aircraft in each weather condition. “Part of the tests are to run the checklists,” adds Poulson. “We want to see how the cockpit warms up and how the aircraft warms up. If it is raining, the pilot gets wet.”



The aircraft is subjected to all manner of weather extremes in a battery of separate tests. The individual trials range from cold soaking the aircraft at minus sixty-five-degree cold before “warming” it to minus forty degrees; to a buildup of eight inches of snow, which at about twenty pounds of weight per square foot over the approximately 1,000 square feet of surface area on the Raptor results in a load of 20,000 pounds on the top of the aircraft; to a wind-blown snow at approximately forty-four feet per second. And that’s just the cold stuff.

After the snow melts (and is cleared through large drains in the chamber floor to a special retaining pond), heat test-ing begins. The trials start at a comfortable eighty degrees and build up to 120 degrees with the engines running. A later battery of tests subjects the aircraft to ninety-five degrees with seventy-four percent relative humidity and 105 degrees with eighty percent humidity to see where condensation occurs inside the aircraft.



Then the rains come. In one test, Raptor is inundated with 1.4 inches of rain per hour for close to eight hours to see how the drain holes on the bottom of the aircraft perform. Wind-blown rain tests identify where puddles may form in the weapons bays and in other openings. These tests are followed by an overnight in freezing rain. The resulting ice requires almost 1,200 gallons of deicing fluid to thaw the aircraft. The ice test is followed by a ground fog test at zero degrees and a vortex icing test (where the engines suck in standing ground water) to see where ice forms in the engine inlets.

“That is about the normal range of tests most aircraft are put through,” notes Wayne Drake, the lab’s technical director. “The programs are very thorough.”

Concurrent with the aircraft tests are maintenance, loading, and auxiliary equipment tests. “You have many more problems in the cold,” says MSgt. Paul Stauffer, one of the Air Force technicians who weathers the conditions with the F/A-22 as the tests progress. “Equipment that is supposed to work even at minus twenty degrees acts differently at minus forty,” he says. “The Raptor is no exception.”

After one cold-soak, the canopy will not close because the power-operated systems stopped working. The maintainers help the pilot close the canopy manually before the next test, an engine run at minus forty degrees, begins.

Once, an auxiliary power unit fails and has to be replaced in the cold. “That actually works out,” notes Poulson. “Changing an APU at low temperatures is one of the maintenance points we want to check.” Adds TSgt. Greg Auzenne, another crew chief participating in the tests, “Even simple things require more thought and effort at these conditions. Moving an equipment cart three feet can take twenty minutes because of the ice and snow.”



n one particularly arduous test, maintainers load four AIM-120 missiles in the F/A-22’s main weapons bay and an AIM-9 missile in one of the side weapons bays. They also attach underwing external fuel tanks and load the jet’s main tanks with fuel—all the while wearing full chemical/biological warfare gear with the temperature in the chamber set at zero degrees Fahrenheit.

“We change a battery in the blowing rain and we perform a pre- and post-flight inspection in the blowing snow,” explains Stauffer. “We are validating the maintenance database just by doing the things that will be typical flightline crew chief jobs. The conditions we work in aren’t always great, though.”

At the completion of the tests, the aircraft is returned to flight status. After a functional check flight on 9 September, the Raptor leaves Eglin for Edwards. It makes an intermediate stop at the Lockheed Martin plant in Fort Worth, Texas. Company employees, who build one-third of each F/A-22 in Texas, are treated with their first look at the complete fighter. The aircraft is flown back to Edwards on 17 September.



“Overall, we found a few anomalies in the climatic lab, and we will have to go tweak them,” concludes Poulson. “Nearly all of the tweaks will be minor software adjustments, though. The engines start slower in the cold and the rest of the systems depend on the engines for power. How those engines come up and how the power is distributed is a software fix. But those are the kinds of things we came to Eglin to learn.”

The McKinley Climatic Laboratory is truly a matchless national resource. With its unique capabilities, there is little wonder why this facility, which is operated for the Air Force by BAE Systems, was designated as a National Historic Mechanical Engineering Landmark. But the bottom line is practicality.

“We have tested the F-22 in every conceivable operational condition,” says Drake, who has been at the laboratory for nearly thirty years. “Getting the same kind of data we get here in three months would have taken years without this facility, and at a much greater cost. We now know the F-22 can work in the weather.”
___________________________________________________________________

As for doubting it combat performance, just check out this link:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=269944&messageid=1097342635&lp=1097456188

Theoretically my ass....




"To secure the peace is to prepare for war." George Washington and later Metallica.

 
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shocktrooper
(Login shocktrooper)

Re: F/A-22 vs Mig-31

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October 17 2004, 8:28 AM 

I agree with you that the Tu-160 "Blackjack" is much better than the B-52, B-1B and B-2.


    
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Dec 7, 2004 6:58 AM
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Dec 7, 2004 6:57 AM
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Oct 17, 2004 8:45 AM
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Oct 17, 2004 8:39 AM
This message has been edited by shocktrooper on Oct 17, 2004 8:35 AM


 
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