Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 2:21 PM
Holy **** that's one great looking fighter.
As far as I can see, it's a closed wind tunnel.
One engine hmm, I though they were planing to go with two engines.
Do you know when the first prototype will be ready?
And how many models of this plane they have built until now? Is this the final design for an example?
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 5:52 PM
For once I agree with Dan, this thing most likely won't see active service until 2020 at the earliest, 2025 if they have serious problems during development. By then it would probably be inferior to the next generation of fighters coming out of the west around this time frame (2020-2030).
by that time US will have their 3rd generation stealth aircraft already flying.
"An Invasion through Canada into the US would become a disaster, they are the only country that does not follow their doctrine, unpredictability and innovation is what scares the russian bear" - Russian Infantry Officer shortly after the cold war
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 8:52 PM
"its like 50 years almost behind the US
by that time US will have their 3rd generation stealth aircraft already flying."
"For once I agree with Dan, this thing most likely won't see active service until 2020 at the earliest, 2025 if they have serious problems during development. By then it would probably be inferior to the next generation of fighters coming out of the west around this time frame (2020-2030)."
"It look great , i has doubt it will fly in the next 10-15 years."
- The joke is on you Dan, Cole Liedtke, and Wing_Commander; for this is not a Chinese J-12, but rather is an experimental plane by NASA on stealth concept.
- It is most funny for all you white boys automatically bashing Chinese system; when in fact, this is a very NASA testing! So, all your hot air about Chinese system sucks....etc; are just your own biased reflect in action! ROFLMAO
- Now we knows, which of you are a closet racist! Haa! Haa!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 9:03 PM
@Sina-1
"Holy **** that's one great looking fighter.
As far as I can see, it's a closed wind tunnel.
One engine hmm, I though they were planing to go with two engines.
Do you know when the first prototype will be ready?
And how many models of this plane they have built until now? Is this the final design for an example?"
- As to my Persian friend; here is few possible J-12 computer renditions. I have once post a wind tunnel testing of a model plane looks very similar to the last two pictures from Kanwa, if I can relocate this wind tunnel testing picture..... will post it here for you guys!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 9:09 PM
@Dan
"LOL , where is the jok exactly??
And where is the racism here?"
- The joke is where you boys automatically thinks and remarks that China system sucks, take long time to complete...blah, blah, blah! Without even have the small decency to thinks and to check the source before you makes your comments! At least, ask a few simple questions to confirm this is indeed Chinese system before you run into auto-cruise and to bashing Chinese system. In this case; it so happened this is a Western(NASA) testing system! ROFLMAO
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 10:38 PM
Nah not really, I just look at how long it took for the J-10 to come to active service, then take into account the stage of development and the added complexity of stealth of the so called "Chinese Aircraft", and estimated on a date of service. And based on that date, commented on what the west would have produced by then.
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 10:51 PM
"Nah not really, I just look at how long it took for the J-10 to come to active service, then take into account the stage of development and the added complexity of stealth of the so called "Chinese Aircraft", and estimated on a date of service. And based on that date, commented on what the west would have produced by then."
- For your information, J-10 told considerable longer time frame to develop; because there was a real learning curves for China to develop in terms of technology. But, one thing about technology; you get better and better at it, when you experiment and spending more time into R&D.
- Please tell, just how long did the American slowly evolves and to learn about modern day jet; me heard one time, Canada was a real powerhouse in modern day fighter jet(Arrow Program) and the American were far behind the Canadian in this area. Yet, the American acquired their knowledge from Canadian Engineers and also doing many pioneer research...etc; and now the American are truly king in the Aerospace field.
- But, you have to start somewhere, and to learn the basic; J-10 is our Chinese version of learning the basic. As you now see; we have learned our lessons and we now applied our learning on more important project and more advance fighters. So, don't assumes China is developing J-10 all over in J-12; for the basic component liken jet engines, materials, computer sym...etc. All these heavy investment and R&D is already mature in J-10; and many of these technology and principle can be cross bred into future programs!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:23 PM
"Don't talk about Fallujah again: 1,600 dead and 1,000 captured. Sadr's was right. A fight like this would have eliminated his entire army."
- ROFLMAO; me heard, there are another 160,000 Muslims primed and ready to take their call of freedom and to be martyr! Do you have another 150,00 American soldier to mojo them Iraqis; better call up your draft now!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:27 PM
>>>ROFLMAO; me heard, there are another 160,000 Muslims primed and ready to take their call of freedom and to be martyr! Do you have another 150,00 American soldier to mojo them Iraqis; better call up your draft now!<<<
That's good to have so many martyrs, but I really don't think so. Those who died had nowhere else to go even then almost half of them surrendered!
This message has been edited by sntcip on Nov 16, 2004 11:28 PM
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:31 PM
"That's good to have so many martyrs, but I really don't think so. Those who died had nowhere else to go even then almost half of them surrendered!"
- Hmmm! As more of the Muslim views and see how you American GI shooting unarmed freedom fighter in their house of worship; me think, not many more Iraqis freedom fighters going to surrendered to your American forces. Haa! Haa!
- As to the number of martyrs; time will tell, and fully review the true nature of this Iraqis War! Lets our Time The Equalizer do her job!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:37 PM
>>>Hmmm! As more of the Muslim views and see how you American GI shooting unarmed freedom fighter in their house of worship; me think, not many more Iraqis freedom fighters going to surrendered to your American forces. Haa! Haa!<<<
You seem to imply he was an innocent civilian, poor victim of the war who was injured in a crossfire and had nothing to do with it that battle. By the way you heard 160,000 only. I heard talk, talk, talk of about 1.6 billion.
This message has been edited by sntcip on Nov 16, 2004 11:38 PM
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:47 PM
@skinheadbhudda
"who is this china boy who thinks his overpopulated **** hole can stand up to the western powers?"
- Who the hell you think you are, smelly toll; don't even knows of lowly farmer Ol' me on the Network54! What red necks are you coming from which hick village who do not knows of Ol' Boy(me); are you any red neck worth your salt? Me gather not! ROFLMAO
@Sntcip
"You seem to imply he was an innocent civilian, poor victim of the war who was injured in a crossfire and had nothing to do with it that battle. By the way you heard 160,000 only. I heard talk, talk, talk of about 1.6 billion."
- Me thinks, these were unarmed freedom fighter who are first surrendered to the USMC; yet, some nutcase in the USMC just return and kill these freedom fighters in cold blood! That smell of crimes against humanity!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:51 PM
since when do china boy's have human rights complaints if it weren't for human rights abuses you chinese would be democratic and free BUT you allow the bulldozing of protesters and mass executions plus the rpae and murder of any enemy from vietnam to india to tibet to mongolia to ; you get the picture.
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:53 PM
>>>Me thinks, these were unarmed freedom fighter who are first surrendered to the USMC; yet, some nutcase in the USMC just return and kill these freedom fighters in cold blood! That smell of crimes against humanity!<<<
It seems we don't see the same pictures. I didn't see anyone surrendering. Have you heard of booby trapped bodies in Falluja?
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 16 2004, 11:56 PM
"since when do china boy's have human rights complaints if it weren't for human rights abuses you chinese would be democratic and free BUT you allow the bulldozing of protesters and mass executions plus the rpae and murder of any enemy from vietnam to india to tibet to mongolia to ; you get the picture."
- Oh yeah, maggot; you wanting to see how much is human rights BS America! Here just for you!
- You very proud and very own sub-human trashy; your Tiger Force in Vietnam! Learn to read! Lump-nut!
A Big Story - But Little Noted by Big Media
by Cole C. Campbell
Between May and November of 1967, Tiger Force - an elite platoon of the Army's 101st Airborne Division - killed and maimed dozens, and most likely hundreds, of Vietnamese civilians.
Four years later, the Army began investigating the slaughter, conducting 137 interviews over four and a half years and tracking down former platoon members in 63 cities in the United States, Germany, Korea and the Philippines. The investigation concluded that at least 18 soldiers had committed crimes including murder, assault and dereliction of duty. But no charges were filed. No public report was issued. Nothing was said.
Until Oct. 19, when The Toledo Blade began publishing these facts in a sweeping series, "Buried Secrets, Brutal Truths," based on the investigation's classified documents and the newspaper's own interviews with more than 100 people in the United States and Vietnam.
"Women and children were intentionally blown up in underground bunkers," The Blade reported. "Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for their gold fillings... One medic said he counted 120 unarmed villagers killed in one month."
The Blade reported that some soldiers tried to stop the atrocities, but were put off by commanders. Had commanders investigated at all at the time, experts told the newspaper, they would have signaled that atrocities would not be tolerated.
Reports on the Tiger Force probe went to the White House during the Nixon and Ford eras and to former Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger and Secretary of the Army Howard Calloway. Gerald Ford and Schlesinger declined to comment to the newspaper, while Calloway said he did not remember the inquiry.
The Blade's series names names, cites documents and vivedly reconstructs the atrocities, based on eyewitness descriptions. It also conveys how the atrocities continue to affect the troops who committed or witnessed them - and the Vietnamese ravaged by them.
Why is all this newsworthy 36 years later? As The Blade's executive editor, Ron Royhab, says in presenting the series, the American people need to know what is done, and not done, by American forces so we can choose to hold accountable those who commit atrocities - and those who do little to stop, correct or punish them.
There is no statute of limitations for the newsworthiness of atrocities - as the journalism community underscored in 2000. That year's Pulitzer Prize for investigative journalism was awarded to three Associated Press reporters who documented what the Pulitzer board called "the decades-old secret of how American soldiers early in the Korean War killed hundreds of Korean civilians in a massacre at the No Gun Ri Bridge." And plenty of news organizations carried reports on the disclosure in 2001 that former Sen. Bob Kerry of Nebraska had received a Bronze Star for an engagement in Vietnam that entailed the massacre of a score of civilians, mostly women and children.
Wide dissemination of these stories, and additional reporting by other news organizations, are important components of accountability. Sustained news media attention helps focus public attention on public institutions that are responsible. The Blade continues to publish new details and perspectives on the atrocities, a clear indication there is more to uncover and comment on.
And yet The Blade's reporting has not been built upon by other news organizations around the country. Most newspapers published an Associated Press or Reuters wire-service summary of the series and then shifted their gaze elsewhere. Newsday columnist James P. Pinkerton commented on The Blade's series in an Oct. 30 column. The New York Times has published nothing. An Internet search for Tiger Force citations produces as many references to GI Joe action figures as to atrocities.
Seymour Hersch, who broke the My Lai massacre story, summarized The Blade's report in the Nov. 10 New Yorker magazine. He noted how national news organizations have mostly ignored the story. That prompted three reports on ABC News programs, and Aaron Brown has taped a segment to be aired on CNN.
Why such indifference among news organizations? Many factors contribute, including the difficulty of catching up on a story whose key sources are so widely distributed. There may even be a reluctance to appear anti-Army at a time when troops are engaged in street-fighting in Iraq.
But, sadly, the main impediment is one of professional status. The Blade is not published in Manhattan, Washington, Chicago or Los Angeles. It is not part of a mega-media empire such as Tribune Co., which owns Newsday, or Gannett or Knight-Ridder. And it has not yet earned the halo of regional respectability the profession has awarded papers in Seattle and San Jose and St. Petersburg. That could begin to change when the Pulitzer board meets next spring.
Until then, you may want to inform yourself by reading the series - and reassert your independence from the journalism elite's neglect.
Cole C. Campbell is a former editor of the Norfolk Virginian-Pilot and the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 17 2004, 12:13 AM
"It seems we don't see the same pictures. I didn't see anyone surrendering. Have you heard of booby trapped bodies in Falluja?"
- If these were booby traped unarmed freedom fighters; when on earth you wanting to get close and to shot them point blank! Don't you wanting to stay clear of any booby trapped bodies? Beside, these were live and kicking POW; and you don't normally shooting POW in the head do you? What is the meaning of your American liberation war; is that reduced to shooting unarmed POW?
Im not bashing anyone, im saying that even if there were a chinese stealth aircraft, that is good, 2nd country to produce stealth aircraft proplably. Im just saying there is a large gap of experience between US and China. Even so, if they were smart they would do a joint stealth aircraft, never would happen but still.
"An Invasion through Canada into the US would become a disaster, they are the only country that does not follow their doctrine, unpredictability and innovation is what scares the russian bear" - Russian Infantry Officer shortly after the cold war
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 17 2004, 1:18 AM
"Im not bashing anyone, im saying that even if there were a chinese stealth aircraft, that is good, 2nd country to produce stealth aircraft proplably. Im just saying there is a large gap of experience between US and China. Even so, if they were smart they would do a joint stealth aircraft, never would happen but still."
- Now, why would USA and China to join force to produce stealth; for we are potential enemy!
- Also, Stealth technology is not all that advance and all; the basic principle of stealth and elements been around for a while. It is just a matter of time, before China is able to coordinate all these basic elements into a fighter plane. Sure, it may take China must longer then the west to produce her first stealth plane; but time is on our hand.
- Also, few hundred Stealth plane ain't going to turn the tide of a massive war; is it?
Mister Dragon, you are the one that said Chinese Stealth fighter,then you say it is Nasa experimenting,,who is the racist here,
at least nobody came out and said that no way chinos are cabable of making this,everyone obviously above, didnt have the racial inferiority you have but they did not questioned China's abilities of carrieing out such achievements.THEY thought China is ABLE for it, and they believed you,
It is you the old man,trying to joke around,sometimes i wonder how old you are.....U are like an improoved version of Operation12.
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 17 2004, 3:51 AM
Laughing Harlequin:
Ah!feel the love from Illyria snake man.The Deceiver you are,and Laughing Harlequin finds it amusing.
The Laughing Harlequin can't help but smile.
He laughs that the others fell for Dragons trick.He is laughing at the deception of the wily snake.He also laughs at the snake revealing himself.Dragon should have carried out his deception further.
Ol' Harlequin likes the questions being fired.It's making you think eh?Deceive,misdirect and remain stealthy....like a snake.Where is fiery Dragon with forthright comments?
In all probability,China does have some stealth-related projects going on,but the Americans have a lead of more than a decade currently.China will obviously need to make greater strides in its research if it wants to gain parity with America in the area of stealth.
We'll just have to wait and see.
Does the path choose the walker or the walker the path?
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Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 17 2004, 4:17 AM
@Sntcip
"Sometimes what you write is really sh!t. Why buy a few hundred Su-30Mkk, why buy kilos; why build warships. Or the criteria only applies to one side?"
- My friend sntcip, my comments as related to few F-22 truly stand as what is; the comparison of few hundred F-22(for that matter, even with your few thousands F15/F16/F18) can not turn the tide of an all out war between China and USA. This same argument cut both ways with the few hundred Su-27/30MKK, the 12 Kilos and four sovereignty...etc; which China will not be able to turn the tide against USA airforce and navy!
- Let me rephrase and put it as another angle; this will give you the full meaning of an all out war between China and USA, for there will not be any winner! In this epic war between Eagle and Dragon, it will quickly escalated into MAD war; there is no winner in this fight, there will be no humanity(as we know it today) after this fight is started.
- Get it, it does not matter if you have 12 carrier, or we have 2 millions troops...etc; all these numerical statistic are meaningless, when the big whopper nukes are being fired at each other cities!
- On a short regional war; yeah, few hundred F-22 or few hundred Su27/30 may do wonders at the result of conflicts! But, let me restate; USA vs China war is not a short nor regional war, the only outcome is the escalation of a MAD exchange......... In the end, all these talk about hardware, fancy planes and ships....etc; are meaningless, get it this is war which end all wars!
Re: China J-12 Steath Fighter, In Wind Tunnel Testing.....
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November 17 2004, 4:33 AM
@ILLIRIA
"Mister Dragon, you are the one that said Chinese Stealth fighter,then you say it is Nasa experimenting,,who is the racist here,"
- Me gather, you don't knows of fishing baits; are you a Fisher of Man! Please tell, what do you baits sneaky Chinese bashing closet hide out; you use real bacon to bait them out! Haa! Haa!
"at least nobody came out and said that no way chinos are cabable of making this,everyone obviously above, didnt have the racial inferiority you have but they did not questioned China's abilities of carrieing out such achievements.THEY thought China is ABLE for it, and they believed you,"
- It is tiring to hear on each and every system front; there is a Western experts who continue to self-denial of Chinese weapons system being advance. From our ICBM, to AWACS, to jet fighters, to satellites, to subs, to SP gun.....etc; for each and all of these Chinese system, there is a Western first comments..... the Chinese can not do it, or they are inferior, or they are copied, or they will be late...etc. How offend, did we heard this comments from my Western counterpart? In fact, when I first arrived into Network54 forum; most if not all the Western friend don't even know that China produces all of her major military equipment! Wow that was an eye opener for me; and that is why the series of Dragon Military Might picture show comes about! We Chicom propaganda team(Ol' me) is here to inform, to entertained, to flame, to read between the lines¡K¡K¡K¡K and occasion to fisher out any hidden sneaky amount our mist! ROFLMAO
"It is you the old man,trying to joke around,sometimes i wonder how old you are.....U are like an improoved version of Operation12."
- You be the guest of my age; if you get it right, me sent you a Chinese beer! Go on, you have one shot at it; earn a free bottle of bear! Be a fisher of me age! Haa! Haa!
BTW: what is Operation12; is that some hidden Western code name, liken the M15/M16 or some ultra-secretive Echelon agency? Ol' boy is only a simple farmer; I fully assure you, me no Opertion666, me tend cows and collect pies! ROFLMAO
E Tan, E Epi Tas! on loan! 
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