TS> Man has always been capable of doing social and civil wrong, however the laws against these wrongs are made by civil societies, not God. Because man does have free will, God simply warned Adam of the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Jews believe that God simply told Adam what his choices were, and Adam made the choice that Jews are happy with.
N> Are you really figuring this out in your mind TS? While man was capable doing wrong, Adam and Eve were ALONE in the Garden when they sinned. The possibility of social and civil wrongdoing was non-existent in the Garden. Do you have any substantiation of others in the Garden? However, their choice EFFECTED ALL MANKIND that followed OUTSIDE of the Garden (consequences of sin).
Gen 3:22-24
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23
therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life. (NAS)
How could the Jews be HAPPY with Adam's decision? Adam wasn't even a Jew. The Jews had not yet existed, but the Messiah did.
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TS> Beyond that, the OT is full of prophecies having to do with man's condition before God, and I cannot find one instance where it is suggested that mankind is cursed by Adam's decision.
N> It's RIGHT AFTER Adam and Eve sinned TS. The uncorrupted nature of man before the sin of Adam and Eve was now corrupted and from then on when TWO PEOPLE with CORRUPTED NATURES complete sexual intimacy the result is offspring inheriting the CORRUPTED NATURE. That is a CURSE TS.
We are INCAPABLE of keeping the 10 Commandments of God 24/7, and UNLESS you have kept them ALL every moment of life, you need a Savior. Thank God He provided Himself because He was NOT OBLIGED TO. ONLY PERFECTION 24/7 can be excepted by God.
Gen 3:9-19
9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"
10 And he said, "I heard the sound of Thee in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself."
11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?"
12 And the man said, "The woman whom Thou gavest {to be} with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 And the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; On your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life;
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel."
16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, in pain you shall bring forth children; yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."
17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life.
18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field;
19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, because from it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (NAS)
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TS> In order to believe in man's free will, one cannot logically believe that God has a Sovereign Plan.
Gen 3:15 is not a very clear verse in the grand scheme of things, but it it quite obvious that it refers to man bruising the serpent's head. According to God, man is destined to save himself.
N> Gen 3:15 is very clear when you consider the context of ALL Scripture. First it is obvious it has NOTHING to do with Israel but has EVERYTHING to do with Christ. If you read Matthew 4:1-11 you will see that
Satan TRIED DESPARATELY to convince Christ not to proceed in completing the purpose for which He came (TO SAVE HIS PEOPLE, Jewish or Gentile believers).
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TS> The promised land" is actually a misnomer. God did not promise any land to anybody, He simply promised that the everlasting possession of a particular piece of land, is how that nation will bring about the goal of the covenant, which is the blessing of all the families of all the nations.
N> Well NO TS God DID actually promise Israel a land for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION
Gen 17:7-8
7 "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an
everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.
8 "And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (NAS)
The Hebrew word for EVERLASTING TS is
owlam and it is defined as...
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
a) ancient time, long time (of past)
b) (of future)
1) for ever, always
2) continuous existence, perpetual
3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity
Now you've KNOW the truth about the land promised to Israel TS. You either ACCEPT the TRUTH or you REJECT IT. It's not agnosticism, it's a wilfull act to reject truth. I'm saying this with ALL HONESTY TS because now I'm seeing that while you're claiming to be a TRUTHSEEKER, it seems you've already made up your mind to excuse yourself and believe what you've chosen to believe EVEN IF it's a lie. I want to be wrong, but you're saying things and I honestly don't know WHERE YOU are getting these thoughts.
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TS> Everybody dies whether in his sins or not. The teachings of the Pharisees were endorsed by Jesus, but their actions showed that they did not believe what they taught, so they were backslidden just as the rest of the Jews were. Unless they believed what Jesus was telling them they would die in unbelief. If they believed what Jesus told them they would simply die in righteousness. Everybody dies.
N> I already said that everybody will suffer physical death but as SHOWN by the resurrection even though we may see someone dying physically it doesn't mean they are DEAD. God who cannot lie CLEARLY STATED...
John 11:25
25 Jesus said to her,
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, (NAS)
Unless we LOVE the truth, we cannot know it ~~ Pascal