been a hard day's night...August 8 2010 at 7:48 PM
Kate (Login kateothelamp)
Response to You're asking a hard thing
V: You agree that the ONLY record we have of the man-god Jesus Christ is in the Gospels but you also agree that the Gospels are flawed. That leaves us NOT KNOWING WHAT ... to believe!
That's the main record we have of Jesus -- the Gospels and Acts. A smattering of extra-Biblical references, but not many. I do agree there are flaws in the Gospels, as in the rest of the Bible. And any other historic record about anything, for that matter, especially a record that is 2000 years old.
For the sake of discussion, I think we have to take the same approach as the Jesus Seminar -- (from the Wiki page) "The seminar treats the gospels as historical sources that represent Jesus' actual words and deeds as well as elaborations of the early Christian community and of the gospel authors." If we don't take that approach, I don't know how we can discuss Jesus at all, since there isn't much else to refer to.
V: Paul didn't talk about him, James didn't talk about him, Jude didn't talk about him, Peter didn't talk about him, the writer of Hebrews didn't talk about him and neither did the writer(s) of the 3 little Johns! NOBODY but the 4 Gospels and a wee bit of Acts ... described the human being Jesus ... and then they disagreed terribly with EACH OTHER yet!
Paul described Jesus as a human being, who had a human nature, was in the likeness of a man, whose blood was shed, who died, and who rose from the dead.
Romans 1:3 ...regarding his [God's] Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Romans 8:3 ...God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering
Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
Romans 5:6-10 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 6:9-10 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body [some texts read "in the flesh"], was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
Philippians 2:5-8 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
The writer(s) of 1 John and 2 John described Jesus as here in the flesh:
1 John 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God...
2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
Hebrews 14:17 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of deaththat is, the devil and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
I have to stop right here and ask...where did you get that information, the idea that there are no references to the humanity of Jesus by the other NT writers? Was this from your own reading of the Bible and you just missed these passages, or was it an idea you read by an author who was asserting that Jesus never lived on earth as a human being?