You put so much work into thatAugust 8 2010 at 10:26 PM
Vince (Login MoxiFox)
Response to been a hard day's night...
It deserves another round of comment! I'll take out some of your text selectively and comment on it.
Paul described Jesus as a human being, who had a human nature, was in the likeness of a man, whose blood was shed, who died, and who rose from the dead.
Romans 1:3 ...regarding his [God's] Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Romans 8:3 ...God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering
Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.
Romans 5:6-10 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Romans 6:9-10 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
1 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body [some texts read "in the flesh"], was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
Philippians 2:5-8 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
In each and every underlined case there is nothing specific stated about the PERSON of Jesus Christ ... is there?
He was a descendant of David. WHO was a descendant of David? Jesus of Nazareth, of COURSE! Why didn't Paul simply say to whom he was referring? Because he didn't KNOW any "Jesus of Nazareth." He was simply telling what his visions had told him.
Sending his son in the "likeness". What the heck is that? He WASN'T a real guy; he was just the likeness of a real guy? This question plagued the early church fathers too. Of what SUBSTANCE had Jesus been made?
Faith in his blood. Where was faith in the person he had been while on earth? I mean, if we were to have faith in JFK, for instance, we definitely would have more faith in the guy he WAS ... than in the blood he shed when he was shot. How about you? Is your faith more in the blood of Jesus or in the life you believe he lived?
Christ died for the ungodly; Christ died for us. Why did he say Christ instead of the more familiar Jesus Christ? I mean, I think Christ is more accurate for the feeling of God but his expression is certainly more in the cosmic sense than it is of a certain human being whom he knew about.
1 Timothy ... ahm ... there's some question as to whether Paul actually WROTE the Timothy epistles. If they were written by someone else quite a bit later, it's quite understandable that this someone MIGHT be referring to Gospels' Jesus.
"Appeared in a body" ... again, is very impersonal, speculative and kind of superstitious ... as though the fellow was a ghost. I would say that Abraham Lincoln became flesh and dwelt among us ... before I would say that "he appeared in a body."
Verse 16 is rather strange too in that it speaks of a "great mystery" ... that Jesus was "God manifest in the flesh" but then was seen by whom? People? No ... ANGELS! nOW come on! He was supposed to have been seen by thousands of people too. Ok, angels means messengers and the author probably means human messengers but still .... the Gospels have him seen by ordinary people ... in the thousands; not just some few select messenger guys.
Philipians 2:5 ... "being made in human likeness and appearance as a man"...
Again, we have this ghostly idea of likeness and appearance as though he was an apparition with the ability of a shape-shifter. If these authors had READ the Gospels and believed them to be true, they wouldn't have talked about Jesus like that because they could simply REFER to the Jesus whom everyone remembered as having lived, been crucified and who rose from the dead and then descended to heaven.
- wow. - Kate on Aug 9, 2010, 2:12 AM