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The case of a historical and supernatural Jesus

July 29 2011 at 9:43 AM

JVH say  (Login JVH)
Sufi

I

The evidence is there is no conclusive evidence in support of a historical and supernatural "Jesus" as portrayed in the NT.

If there were such evidence, the world would know about it - the church would see to that - and there would be no more controversy over a historical and supernatural "Jesus" roaming the place some 2-thousand years ago.

So far, no such evidence, neither by the church nor by anyone else, has been presented, ever. The lack of conclusive evidence therefore, speaks in favor of the opposite.




rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


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This message has been edited by JVH on Jul 29, 2011 12:10 PM


 
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AuthorReply


(Login Harpazo)
Sufi

this world?

July 29 2011, 10:16 AM 

you said:

The evidence is there is no conclusive evidence in support of a historical and supernatural "Jesus" as portrayed in the NT.

ME: only those who wrote about him, but these obviously don't count:

you continue.....

If there were such evidence, the world would know about it - the church would see to that - and there would be no more controversy over a historical and supernatural "Jesus" roaming the place some 2-thousand years ago.


ME; Once again, those who claim to have EXPERIENCED Jesus yesterday, TODAY and in the future, are not important enough to consider........so we ignore them as evidence....


you continue..

So far, no such evidence, neither by the church nor by anyone else, has been presented, ever. The lack of conclusive evidence therefore, speaks in favor of the opposite.



ME: right!! who cares about the "evidence" of those we discount as having anything to say:

 
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Doc Strange
(Login edstrange13)

That's not evidence.

July 29 2011, 10:21 AM 

Yvonne said: right!! who cares about the "evidence" of those we discount as having anything to say

What someone has to say about experiences isn't evidence. That's eyewitness testimony. Every professional investigator will tell you that eyewitness testimony is the flimsiest type of "evidence" possible. And, in courts of law, eyewitness testimony isn't even considered evidence because of how fallible human testimony really is.

It's not evidence. It's hearsay.

Now, there's nothing wrong with believing something because of an experience. But don't expect others to believe eyewitness testimony.

There's some validity in the saying "seeing is believing".

-----------------------------------------------
"Forget Jesus! Stars died so you could be here today." -- Dr. Lawrence Krauss, theoretical physicist

 
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(Login Harpazo)
Sufi

you said

July 29 2011, 10:32 AM 

What someone has to say about experiences isn't evidence


ME: Exactly!!!! thats why I don't consider what you say as evidence

or what others say as evidence either

I HAVE TO SEE IT WITHIN MY OWN CONSCIOUSNESS or I don't believe it period

even science......outside of me............means nothing if I can't EXPERIENCE it within me

if the TRUTH out there can't be experienced IN HERE.....in me........why SHOULD I BELIEVE IT

I am made of the same stuff scientists study


 
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Doc Strange
(Login edstrange13)

The difference is...

July 29 2011, 11:39 AM 

Yvonne said: Exactly!!!! thats why I don't consider what you say as evidence or what others say as evidence either

The difference is that I also present evidence that can be tested when I make a claim.

When you make a claim, you ask us to simply take your word for it.

Big difference.

-----------------------------------------------
"Forget Jesus! Stars died so you could be here today." -- Dr. Lawrence Krauss, theoretical physicist

 
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(Login Harpazo)
Sufi

tested?

July 29 2011, 11:44 AM 

tested?

you believe what others saw.......regardless if you "THINK" their test was infalliable or not:


you don't KNOW what you KNOW without someone else proving it to you even if you never see it for yourself?

ok


 
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Tim
(no login)

Your right Y

July 30 2011, 2:58 AM 

They want testable proof.
Yet they have nothing testable nor provable of what they claim as fact.
They only have reports from strangers.

Is it Irony or Hypocrisy or both?

Frustrating isn't it?
And if all else fails they pull out the wild card, "Spaghetti Monster."

Bro Tim



 
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(Login queenannie38)

even in a court of law...

August 7 2011, 8:22 PM 

two witnesses with corroborating evidence goes pretty far in removing every "shadow of a doubt" from the discerning minds of the jury...who are not to get information about the case from any source outside the courtroom.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be made certain.

If Yvonne is one witness, then I am another...we did not have the same experience since we are not the same person...but we both experienced the same thing...many years apart...I did not know her and she did not know me...I've never heard her speak anything that I did not recognize and know for certain to be true...because of Jesus...through Jesus, that is...because of GOD...not because of me and not even because of Yvonne...

GOD may very well be a 'flying spaghetti monster'...nevertheless, He is still GOD.
happy.gif

Why count anything out? With GOD, all things ARE possible...if you can only believe...

Evil shall slay the wicked:
and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants:
and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.
~Psalms 34:21-22

 
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(Login Harpazo)
Sufi

Tim

August 8 2011, 11:29 AM 

you know me for many years and I always try to use the SCRIPTURES first to show why I say what I say...

if one has no frame of reference for what is written, the scriptures will be interpreted by the "imagination" of man, which is vainity:

the BIBLE speaks of the EXPERIENCE of men who were led by the HOLY SPIRIT meaning,they ENTERED that realm where GOD INHABITS THE SOUL and brings it UP..to where the FORCE comes down to us:

here, in this equivelence of FORM, these people understand the ROOT of development and can speak of that instead of just the manifestation that others study:


when we study the manifestation with a mind that has not seen the ORIGIN of something, we have to continue to TEST TEST TEST to see if we can PROVE what we see

or we make stuff up till someone else proves it for us:


only those who experience something can speak of it from a "WITNESS" point of view, meaning they SAW IT

now, others either believe them

or they have to wait to SEE IT TOO:

since it is written that EVERY EYE SHALL SEE............most people will wait and see

 
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JVH say
(Login JVH)
Sufi

The case of a historical and supernatural Jesus

July 29 2011, 11:26 AM 

II

Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny (the Younger), Suetonius, Talmud et al..

 

Even when the passages apparently referring to Jesus/Christ are genuine, none of them qualify as personal, eyewitness testimonies of the alleged authors themselves in respect to a historical and supernatural Jesus the Christ as portrayed in the NT.

None of the authors lived during the purported advent of the supernatural Jesus the Christ as their birth dates will confirm. Their words therefore, qualify as hearsay - which explains how come none of them claim they have personally met or witnessed a supernatural Jesus the Christ - because what they are saying is what was being said - something they have in common with the gospel authors.

Except for an introduction in "Luke" -in which it is stated what follows is hearsay- the gospels are not signed and are written in the third person perspective, as by an out of sight narrator. The authors, blatantly, never situate themselves within the unfolding narrative nor give any hint they themselves were involved in the events described. Several narratives even involve Jesus by himself, i.e., without any witnesses present.

 

It appears impossible to produce demonstrable, firsthand witness accounts outside the NT about a supernatural Jesus the Christ as portrayed in the NT.

And so we keep returning to square one: the lack of verifiable documentation of firsthand, during-the-event accounts outside the NT leading to the non-existing proof of a historical and supernatural Jesus the Christ as portrayed in the NT.




rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!
[linked image]

CD: short for inevitability


    
This message has been edited by JVH on Jul 29, 2011 12:10 PM


 
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(Login Harpazo)
Sufi

the Bible

July 29 2011, 11:41 AM 

the Bible is meant to be experienced at the "end of time", hence during the 20th century:


it is being revealed NOW...........written by those who were hidden from us but who experienced these truths:

where do you THINK the STORIES came from if not from those who EXPERIENCED THEM???


an eye witness is an EYE witness, but the BIBLE explains that there are two kinds of 'eyes', spiritual and natural:


only those who have the spiritual eye revealed know that it exists


just like someone who found an archeological find proves its existence from the past..........same law


it amazes me that people who only believe in what they see, are so quick to believe those who claim to have discovered something and proven it........without seeing it for themselves scientifically


reading it in a book is enough for them because the writing is about the "outer world"



but the INNER WORLD is even more real.............any child understands this



the inner world and outer world eventually HAVE TO LINE UP for the INNER WORLD and the OUTER world to IMAGE or reflect one another


without the inner consciousness, there would be NO DESIRE TO SEEK for something scientifically


nobody is looking for a ZUMWAYKABA............


why not?

 
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JVH say
(Login JVH)
Sufi

The case of a historical and supernatural Jesus

July 29 2011, 12:06 PM 

III

According to the bible, a supernatural Jesus the Christ was a historical person.

However, when trying to substantiate it, it proves problematic due to the lack of independent, contemporary, during-the-events, corroborating accounts of a historical and supernatural Jesus the Christ as portrayed in the NT.

The evidence is that there is no conclusive evidence in support of a historical and supernatural "Jesus" as portrayed in the NT. This utter lack of conclusive evidence speaks in favor of the opposite.




rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!
[linked image]

CD: short for inevitability


    
This message has been edited by JVH on Jul 29, 2011 12:11 PM


 
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Tim
(no login)

The evidence.... He was stricken from the records

July 30 2011, 2:43 AM 

Stricken from the records like Moses was stricken from the Egyptian records.
A Hebrew Pharaoh, who believed in Jehovah, who is a singular God, was not cool with Egyptian philosophy.

Same thing with Jesus. The Jews expected this kick ass world concurer, and instead they got this kind miracle worker who rallied people against the governments to glorify God his Father. And I think that's how it was viewed.

The Pharisees payed the soldiers to lie about Jesus resurrection.

And there you have it. Stricken concealed and lied about. For political reasons.

Today in the West we have free speech, but go to the Middle East even today, and they will kill you and me JVH for our beliefs. And they will rejoice about killing us.

To express you mind to Ishmaels ancestors is basically a death wish by torture.

John lost his head. Peter was hung upside down until dead. Judas killed himself. Jesus was nailed to a cross and left for dead.

The people you talk about JVH had balls of steel!
And I will be a patriot of them forever. I chose that.

Tim





 
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JVH say
(Login JVH)
Sufi

The case of a historical and supernatural Jesus

July 30 2011, 4:06 AM 

IV

The evidence is that there is no conclusive evidence in support of a historical and supernatural "Jesus" as portrayed in the NT - if there were, that is, records outside of the NT about a supernatural and historical Jesus, someone would've presented them by now. Since that hasn't happened yet, it serves as another piece of evidence that there is no conclusive evidence in support of a historical Jesus, much less a supernatural Jesus.


rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -


New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!
[linked image]

CD: short for inevitability


    
This message has been edited by JVH on Jul 30, 2011 4:21 AM
This message has been edited by JVH on Jul 30, 2011 4:08 AM


 
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(Login Harpazo)
Sufi

truce in love

July 30 2011, 8:37 AM 

you are right, there is no empiricle proof of Jesus other than those who became "witnesses" of him:

its easy to dismiss others; Im ashamed to admit I have done it quite well since my inner witness and consciousness of Jesus in and through my descent and ascent of consciousness:


Im happy with what I have, what I see and hear from within my own sense of reality:

my hope is that you find your ultimate happiness as well:

love to you from the one who knows you as though he created you..........because he did:)

 
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One!life
(no login)

One!life > life is evidence of life*~* it has gone on for....

July 30 2011, 10:05 AM 

jvhlife share'd > The case of a historical and supernatural Jesus
July 29 2011 at 9:43 AM
JVH say (Login JVH)
Sufi
-------------------------------------------------------------------
I

The evidence is there is no conclusive evidence in support of a historical and supernatural "Jesus" as portrayed in the NT.

One!life > How I Cee (Letter (C(hrist)this to read:
The evidence is there is no conclusive evidence in support
of a historical and supernatural "life" as portrayed in the NT.

KJV Bible Read'ns:http://www.videcomp.com/kjv/TOC.html
John 14:6 Jesus saith I am the life

John 4:21 Jesus saith 4:24 God is a Spirit
Romans 8:10 Spirit is life

John 1:1 the Word was God.
1:3 All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made
that was made.
1:4 In him was life;
and the life was the light of men.
1:9 That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man
that cometh into the world.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
therefore also
that holy thing
which shall be born of thee
shall be called the Son of God.

Luke 2:23 (As it is written
in the law of the LORD,
Every male that openeth the womb
(1Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing)
shall be called holy to the Lord;)

One!life > Again how I Cee (Letter (C(hrist)this to read:
The evidence is there is no conclusive evidence in support
of a historical and supernatural "jvhlife" as portrayed in the NT.

JOHN 9:3 Jesus answered,
9:5 "As long as I am in the world", I am the light of the world.

17:1 These words spake Jesus,and said, Father,
17:6 the men which thou gavest me out of the world:
17:11 And now I am no more in the world,
"but these are in the world," and I come to thee.
17:15 "I pray "not" that thou shouldest take them out" of the world
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone,
but for them also
which shall
believe on me
through their word;

Matthew 4:23 Jesus went
5:1 And seeing the multitudes, and his disciples came unto him:
5:2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
5:14 "Ye are the light" of the world. A city
Reve 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun,
neither of the moon, to shine in it:
for the glory of God did lighten it,
and the "Lamb is the light" thereof.
John 1:1 the Word was God.
1:3 All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made
that was made.
1:4 In him was life;
and "the life was the light of men."
1:9 That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man
that cometh into the world.
John 4:21 Jesus saith 4:24 God is a Spirit
Romans 8:10 Spirit is life
John 14:6 Jesus saith I am the life

Love All As ONE!
One!life

jvhlife share'd > If there were such evidence, the world would know about it - the church would see to that - and there would be no more controversy over a historical and supernatural "Jesus" roaming the place some 2-thousand years ago.

So far, no such evidence, neither by the church nor by anyone else, has been presented, ever. The lack of conclusive evidence therefore, speaks in favor of the opposite.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : incontrovertibility
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -

New!! Improved!! Now With CD-Formula!!


CD: short for inevitability

This message has been edited by JVH on Jul 29, 2011 12:10 PM

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