Re: discussion of atheism, religion; Sam Harris and David Wolpe
April 20 2012, 4:39 AM
Atheist and Catholics and mother Teresa and Rab's are all one group Yvonne.
They voted to have Jesus tortured to death on the cross, in spite of Pontius Pilate's recommendation.
Sorry your confused by it Sis.
They conspire to confuse people. And still today they do.
so like Peter you would have tried to prevent Jesus from going to the cross? I guess when he says to you "get behind me Satan for you mind the things of men and not of God" you would have argued your case more vehemently?
Jesus said no man took his life from him; he laid it down willingly and he takes it up again:
didn't Jesus say Father if the cup could be passed........but he said "not my will but thine" be done?
what Jesus do you know and believe in?
the victim of the Jews??
really?
that doesn't sound like the same Jesus of the Bible
most people don't know that Jesus, so you are not alone
There are a lot of Protestants, and Catholics, and Pentecostals etc etc, who are not Christians according to certain Super Christians, peers of the Holy Ghost ..
I consider myself mildly Christian, even as an atheist. Anyone who thinks Jesus was magic is probably on the wrong track anyway, bamboozled by false claims of reincarnation if you believe the false christians incorrect claims.
It seems to me that the part of the bible claiming Jesus was a god was added hundreds of years later to sex up the doctrine.
Who'd care what Jesus said if he wasnt offering "live forever" cards?
I've notice the fanatics here implying that you need to believe the bible because (its factual??? no) because you will live forever, only if you do.
Thats just base greed, blinding them. I believe because magic rewards are given. We've seen how they justify that idiocy...
The Bible makes no claim Jesus is God, or show me where you think it does.
And the ancestors of the old Babylonian warship system a are the Catholics, the Bible makes that clear, and why in Italy, it was still illegal to own a Bible until 1870? The cloak of deception.
And why do you suppose Rome invented and enforced a Trinity in 325 AD and claimed every Pope as the Vicar/Successor of the Jesus/God they Trinitized? World power. And they said to heck with Caesar's we need a Pope/God/man to rule all the earth.
The original Virgin was Nimrods mother/wife, and when she died Nimrod declared her the eternal virgin and that she was to be worshiped. And then May and Jesus appear in history and the Babylonian worship system says, "Oh by the way that Virgin we always worshiped was Mary the mother of Jesus!"
They also refer to her as the Queen of Heaven.
So who do you suppose the old Queen of Heaven was in the OT?
Jeremiah7:18
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
From what Jesus said..
Is Jesus our Father? No.
Is Jesus our God? No.
The Trinity doctrine falsely fabricates Jesus to be God and our Father all rolled up into one. Painting a false picture where the Son of God really doesn't exist.
John3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husbands will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, This is the one I spoke about when I said, He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
Greek transliteration En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.
Literal English in beginning' (or "original" or "foundation" or "source" or "principle") was the Word (or "reason" or "saying"), and the Word (or "reason" or "saying") was with (lit. "towards" or "facing") God, and the Word (or "reason" or "saying") was God.[3]
Who is the Word? The Word was God, became flesh, and dwelt among us. That's what the passage says.
Shows a rather Personal bias towards "Eternal Personification".
Why not...
-- "What WAS" the Word...?
The Word was Logic...
-- The Reasoning Mind of the First Principle.
"The First Principle" is a Gnostic title for... "God".
Through the Logic of the Reasoning Mind...
The First Principle created the Physicality...
In which, "WE" perceive our life essence to "BE".
As for the NT rendering of Logos as "He"...
That...
Is simply because, unlike English...
Greek nouns are gender specific.
They are Male, Female or Neutral...
And...
-- Logos is a Masculine Noun.
Strong's Greek 3056 -- Biblos.Com
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Phonetic Spelling: (log'-os)
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
3056 lógos (from 3004 /lég, "speaking to a conclusion") a word, being the expression of a thought; a saying. 3056 /lógos ("word") is preeminently used of Christ (Jn 1:1), expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit.
[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, "communication-speech"). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words."]
And so...
Feeling led by the "Spirit"...
Jesus shared his message...
In the manner of discourse...
-- "communication-speech"...
Jesus expressed what we have been led to believe are...
The "thoughts" of "God", "The First Principle"...
The "Spiritual Father" of the Physicality...
Of which, WE...
-- Are but a tiny part.
And...
While doing so...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.
-PRev1-
President Barrack Hussein Obama
-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
... and even though I'm no longer a "Christian" ... I'm so impressed by that concept of "logos" and how far-reaching the implications of that concept goes ... in TODAY'S world ... if only Bible thumpers/believers could grasp it.
People are like herds of sheep ... mindlessly sticking together for some kind of mutual "protection". This herd paradigm is quite powerful but essentially mindless and "dangerous" if the control of the herd falls into evil hands.
What I see being expressed in the New Testament -whether true or embellished or polished in later updated versions- is that it might be possible for individual sheep in the herd to start recognizing how the greater whole is or was constructed through the logos and to develop their learning on how they too ... are a part of that logos and quite capable of being creators in their own right.
If a herd of sheep consisted of individual THINKERS, why then ... there would be NO STOPPING that herd from accomplishing enormous feats .... and creating their own utopia without needing to fight or compete with other herds and predators.
But logos requires voluntary consideration, respect, CO-OPERATION ... and a "love" for one another that arises out of those exercises.
The logos way is non-competitive because all things are shared without egotistical preoccupation for becoming "important" and recognized above others in the group. Everyone is too busy "exploring" with the group to be concerned about personal ambition.
Now, you compare that with the Communist model and it "seems" that Communist ideology is kind of similar: all things in common for the common good of all.
The difference though is that one paradigm is VOLUNTARY because of personal enlightenment ... and the other is imposed by brute force.
Any time you have to impose force to get your philosophy established ... you're right back to the original sin of man ... and usually you become MUCH worse than the very problem you're trying to fix.
Logos is THOUGHT. Unless people learn to explore what is and drop their egotistical concerns ... they will remain as dumb sheep being led to slaughter.
En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.
The Word, the Logos...reason, saying, logic. Was with God from the very beginning, and was God; all things were made through the Word.
In the creation account in Genesis, everything was created by the Word of God. God speaks, it comes into into being, and then God names it.
God said "Let there be light"...God called the light Day and the darkness Night.
God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters"...God called the expanse Heaven.
God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear"...God called the dry land Earth and the waters the Seas.
Since I do not believe God is an old, bearded man on a throne, but a vast and infinite spirit being, the description you gave of the Word makes perfect sense to me. Before Jesus existed as a human being on earth, I believe he was spirit, that he was with God and that he was God.
The rest of the passage tells us that John was sent by God to be a witness for the Word, the Word came into the world but it would not receive him, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. And vs. 18 identifies him as the only begotten Son of God -- monogenes heios. Some of the oldest manuscripts even identify him as monogenes theos -- the only begotten God.
PRev: And so...
Feeling led by the "Spirit"...
Jesus shared his message...
In the manner of discourse...
-- "communication-speech"...
Jesus expressed what we have been led to believe are...
The "thoughts" of "God", "The First Principle"...
The "Spiritual Father" of the Physicality...
Of which, WE...
-- Are but a tiny part.
Again, I don't disagree. Jesus was led by the Spirit of God in everything he said and did. I believe a big part of his purpose here on earth was to explain to us what God is really like and what God really wants -- we get so far off track, we did then, and we still do today.
I believe this is what he meant when he said, "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me...And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."
"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." Lennon didn't realize he figured that part out. And probably while on LSD, go figure. =)
PRev: And...
While doing so...
Jesus was just a man...
-- Like any other.
Jesus was a man, most definitely. But..."just" a man, "like any other"? Now, on that...I'd have to disagree. But you knew I would, didn't you? =)
I'm not entirely sure exactly what the incarnation means, or that I could even understand it. Right now, my thoughts are that Jesus was a human being, flesh and blood like us, but the spirit within him was the Spirit of God -- the Holy Spirit -- and that was what made him unique, the only begotten Son of God. I don't know...still pondering this.
why people tend to believe that icons have to be totally one way or another -perfectly good or perfectly bad.
Humans are always a mix of good stuff and not so good. The great heroes we "worship" ... always had some unsavory aspect to them as well. The history books just tend to omit these parts. I don't think Jesus -if he actually existed- was any different.
He disclosed to his disciples by parable ... that once they got into power, they would round up all of their enemies and kill them. He confided to them that they would simply allow the "weeds" to grow up along with the good wheat and then after the harvest when all the threshing was done ... the weeds would be burned and the chaff would be removed.
This isn't unusual thinking or planning by any would-be dictator of course but ... I question the logic in thinking that this kind of MO is any "holier" than the most evil ways. Is there not a REAL ... viable and perfect solution to the problem of opposition and interference which DOESN'T require violence? I'm sure GOD would HAVE some such perfect solution.
It's because you and I have a very different picture of who Jesus was, and what his message was, Vince. I don't think Jesus was just an "icon"; you do. And I've heard your interpretation of those parables, and do not agree with it at all.
It's not literal, it's a parable. Jesus was not implying or suggesting in any way at all for his disciples to literally kill anyone. That would completely contradict his message:
Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Matthew 26:52
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth... Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy... Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Matt 5:5-9.
Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven..." Matt 18:21-22
But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. Luke 6:27-32
And those are just a few examples; there are countless more.
Jesus knew that he was going to die, and had told the apostles closest to him repeatedly, but they did not want to hear or accept it. He told them he was going to the Father. Jesus never expected to reign here on earth as a military or political leader - he told them that too, but again they did not want to hear it.
The parable of the talents is about what will happen at the end of time. It's harshly worded, to be sure. But it's not an encoded message to Jesus' followers endorsing a Christian jihad.
Jesus told this parable to explain the Kingdom his followers were expecting was not immediate , but would be in the future:
"While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once." (19:11)
He spoke of a noble man who was going away to a distant country, and would one day return as king - speaking of his death, and eventual return to earth.
This nobleman left money - talents - with his servants, instructing them to "put this money to work until I come back" - Greek Greek pragmateuomai, "do business, trade.". The master entrusted a little to his servants to see who could be entrusted with more when he returns. Here, Jesus was not talking about literally giving his followers cash to invest. He had given them salvation, the message of God's love, the truth about what God wants for us and from us. All believers are entrusted with spiritual gifts, and we are to use them wisely, to invest them for the glory of God. His followers were entrusted to invest that, to share the gospel, to take the risk to bring more people to a saving knowledge of God. This parable is similar to the great commission - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
The follower who was reprimanded harshly - who was thrown into outer darkness in the related parable in Matthew, is the one who did not invest the treasure he had been given. He hid it, and there was no increase. Luke's version goes even further - when the King returns, those who reject him as king will be struck down. The traditional Christian view is that means those who reject Christ in the second coming - and those who refuse to use the gifts God has given them or refuse to share the gospel message will be condemned to Hell. Since I seriously doubt the existence of a literal, fiery Hell, I see that differently, but that sort of gets on a different subject, so I'll stop here.
as "fudging" ... or not really offering any kind of plausible logical response to the question posed.
If all of this is going to happen "in the end" ... it STILL doesn't explain how Jesus can be this harmless, benevolent, peaceful loving character whom people can emulate to become extremely good and beneficial people ... when, in the END ... he turns vicious anyway.
What the parable would indicate to followers is that ... when all is said and done ... you ELIMINATE your opposition (and not nicely either) ... by having them killed in plain view of the victor. Right?
And you couple that parable with what Jesus said in various other places ... you DON'T get the view that he was God (without need to resort to common human conflict resolution practices) ... but instead, very HUMAN like the rest of us.
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
He spoke to his human followers in THEIR lingo of understanding and I can't see how -if he liberally used the word "sword"- they would interpret his words to mean something quite benign instead ... can you?
And if he DID -- LITERALLY-- mean what he said ... could he still be a manifestation of God in your own perception of what God really represents?
The passage is a parable. Jesus wasn't going to another country to be crowned king and returning -- he was talking about his death. He wasn't leaving money with his followers to invest -- he was leaving salvation, the truth about God, and gifts of the Spirit, and he expected them to be used wisely, to be invested with return. Likewise, he wasn't telling his followers to literally slay anyone.
When was it recorded that Jesus ever committed or encouraged any act of violence at all? The most violent thing ever recorded that he did was to drive the money changers out of the temple (Nucc's favorite Bible story, remember?) It said he made a whip of cords to drive the animals out, that he overturned the tables, that he made quite a scene -- and it doesn't say that he physically hurt one single animal or person. When he was arrested, and Peter cut the ear off of Malchus, the high priest's slave -- Jesus rebuked Peter and healed the man.
So what does the passage mean? You know the traditional interpretation as well as I do. When Jesus comes back, if you don't want him to be your king, then you won't be in the kingdom of Heaven, you'll go to Hell. Outer darkness, weeping, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire.
Looking at all of the scriptures together, however, I'm leaning heavily toward the idea of universal salvation, and no literal Hell, at least not a place of eternal torment. There are some scriptures that certainly sound that way, though -- which explains why so many people believe in that doctrine. I'm still studying this concept of universal reconciliation, and how it all works, and I'm not sure what all I accept or believe, and what might be dogma that is a hold-over from my fundy days. But I know that even when I was in a Baptist or Pentecostal type church, I never had a peace about "the good Buddhist" -- IOW, how could a good, decent person who just happened to not be a Christian, or happened to not understand the idea of salvation through Jesus be condemned to the same eternal punishment in Hell as someone like Hitler? And how could an evil person, who lived a terribly wicked life, theoretically profess faith in Christ on their deathbed, and go to Heaven -- especially when the "good Buddhists" went to Hell? That never made sense to me.
The word translated "kill" is Greek katasphazo, which means to "slaughter, strike down." Jesus was telling this to people near Jericho, who knew the story of King Archelaus who had slaughtered his enemies. There were other parallels, as well, that the listeners would recognize -- Archelaus went to a distant country to be appointed king.
"He said: 'A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return.' " (19:12)
Jesus is telling this as a "story," a parable. But his hearers in Jericho would have immediately brought to mind the story of one of Herod the Great's sons, Archelaus (mentioned once in the Bible in Matthew 2:22).[2] The word "noble birth" is Greek eugenes, "pertaining to being of high status, 'well-born, high-born,' "[3] and "to have himself appointed" is the common Greek word lambano, "receive," here having the meaning "take into one's possession, take, acquire." Archelaus went to Rome to receive his appointment as king over the opposition of his subjects who had also appealed to Rome. [4]
Who were Jesus' enemies at the time, those who would reject him as king? The Pharisees, the scribes, the chief priests, and members of the Sanhedrin.
Where are they now? Their political and religious power has been destroyed. They have been struck down. They certainly won't be around to oppose or reject him as king when he returns. Jesus could have been referring to the destruction of the Jerusalem, which he predicted (Mark 13).
And in answer to your question, no. If Jesus literally was telling his followers to bring his enemies before him and slaughter them -- no, that's not the Jesus I worship. He did not tell his followers to kill people.
St. John, the Liverpudlian.
-- "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."
Moved by the Spirit...
He KNEW Exactly what he was saying.
Was LSD involved...?
Possibly...
After All...
It has long been the Tradition of Mystics among us...
To Achieve their Enlightened States of Consciousness...
Through the assistance of...
-- "Mind Altering" substances.
And...
As they say in certain Christian Circles...
-- The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways.
However...
Any "Mystery" regarding the "Sonship" of Jesus...
Is entirely the result of the misunderstanding...
Of Mere, Mortal Men.
And...
-- Gentile Men at that.
Jesus was the "Son" of God...
In precisely the same manner as David and Solomon were before him.
He was "Unique"...
Only in the fact that he was the Biological Product...
Of the Confluence of both the Priestly AND the Royal Bloodlines.
While David and Solomon were both Messianic Kings of Israel...
Jesus was the ONLY Messianic Priest/King.
And still...
He was...
Entirely Mortal...
Just like any other man.
... the dangers of screaming worshippers, especially in large groups, as St. John, St. Paul, St. George and St. Richard found out.......
rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -
6 Jesus answered, I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.
8 Philip said, Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.
9 Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? 10 Dont you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Isaiah 44:24 24 This is what the LORD says
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
the Maker of all things,
who stretches out the heavens,
who spreads out the earth by myself,
But who was God speaking to at Creation?
Genesis 1:26 26 Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, "
John 1:2-3 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Colossians 1:16-17 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
all things have been created through him and for him
-----------------------------------------------------
That's correct Sister, THROUGH HIM not by him.
GOD created everything, even Jesus our Christ and Brother.
Jesus was made so much better than the angels.
Hebrews 1:1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
God made Jesus to be both our Lord and Christ.
Acts 2:36
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
I don't desire to argue with you Sister Kate. And I wouldn't if I had no certain answers to your mild confusion. And I mean that very kindly.
John 1 is talking about Jesus being revealed as the Son of God, because in the OT Jesus was seen and heard to mankind as being GOD. Jesus has always been the spokesman to mankind for our FATHER. But that was not revealed to us until 2000 years ago as John elaborates on in John 1.
Proof????
Look what else John knows....
John 5:37
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
1 John 4:12
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
John 1:18
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 1 is a very deep thoughts from John's understanding of how Jesus was revealed to mankind as the Son of GOD, instead of being GOD as previously believed.
Want to know more? Just question me and perhaps I can learn from you too.
Do you know Joseph and Mary's last name? Zebedee. Its in the Bible.
So Jesus step father was Joseph Zebedee, who had multiple wives and children.
I know what I believe, and why. We just understand things differently. I have heard the view you are expressing many times in conversations with other people who believe as you do, that Jesus is not the incarnation of God. And that's fine, because, unlike many Trinitarians, I don't think you have to believe Jesus was God in order to be saved. But I do disagree with your view. And my view isn't the traditional Trinitarian view, either...some have told me that my views are heretical =) I just see people splitting hairs and arguing the fine details of things that are impossible for mere humans to fully comprehend.
John 1 speaks for itself - in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In Greek and in Latin, the word order is actually "and God was the Word".
Greek transliteration: En arch n ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos n pros ton Theón, kai Theós n ho Lógos.
Latin Vulgate: In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum.
The text does not say: the Word was "a god", or the Word was like God because the Word was God's mouthpiece in the Old Testament, or the Word was created by God and then all other things were created through the Word. I understand if you believe that, and I understand the passages you've provided. But the text says: the Word was God. For me, that makes it very clear.
Especially when compared to these other scriptures as well:
John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
John 14:9-10 Jesus answered: Dont you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?
Colossians 1:16-17 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
(I do not see a difference between "through him", "in him", or "by him" all things were created. He is identified as the Creator - and the Creator is God.)
John 10:30-33 "I and the Father are one."
Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?
We are not stoning you for any good work, they replied, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.
******************
And yes, I know the next verses, and no I don't believe that Jesus was in any way telling his accusers - or us today - that we are in any way "gods". There is only one God. But that's a different subject.
On a side note, I have never heard anyone say that Joseph's last name was Zebedee, or that he had other wives, and I don't see any support for that in the text. James and John were sons of Zebedee, and he was a fisherman, not a carpenter as Joseph was.
Matthew 4:21-22
21 And going on from there he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets, and he called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.
Mark 1:19-20
19 And going on a little farther, he saw James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 And immediately he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants and followed him.
Their mother, the wife of Zebedee, was probably Salome:
Mark 15:40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
Matthew 27: 55: Many women were there watching from afar, who
had followed Jesus from Galilee, serving him.
56: Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James
and Joses, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Where do you get from these passages that Zebedee was Mary and Joseph's last name?
And no worries, Tim, I respect that your beliefs are different than mine. I am not trying to argue or change your mind, just showing you why I believe what I believe. And that I'm not "confused" =)
This message has been edited by kateothelamp on Apr 25, 2012 10:27 AM
...if you cut someone's sentence in half, it can really change the meaning of what they wrote. =)
Nice that you agree with that, but that's not what I wrote. What I wrote:
The text does not say: the Word was "a god", or the Word was like God because the Word was God's mouthpiece in the Old Testament, or the Word was created by God and then all other things were created through the Word
Do I believe that Jesus pre-existed as the Word before he incarnated and lived as a man here on earth? Yes.
But John 1:1 does not say the Word was the mouthpiece for God in the Old Testament. It says "the Word was God."
I like the verses you posted, and agree that Jesus, the Word, the Son, reveals God to us. I don't agree however, that makes him any less God, as he is declared to be in John 1:1.
Jesus said he and the Father are one. He said that if we've seen him, we've seen the Father. He said that the Father was in him, and that he was in the Father.
Do you believe God is omnipresent - everywhere?
Do you believe there is only one God?
And also, I'm curious about your answers to the Zebedee questions I asked you...
You are merely promulgating...
The Gentile Perversion of Judaism...
-- after all, Jesus was a Jew.
And, Judaism is, in fact...
The Hebrew Perversion...
Of the Polytheistic Sumerian Religion...
-- let us not forget...
-- Abraham was Sumerian.
The References to Plurality...
Made by the "God" of the Old Testament...
Are acknowledgements of...
-- The Sumerian Pantheon.
Which, of course, would be perfectly clear...
If not for some 4000 years of religious obscurantism.
John said the Word was in the beginning with God, the Word was God, and all things were created through the Word - that would all be in the first chapter of Genesis. Then John says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us - the spiritual being took on human form. And he clearly identifies that human being as Jesus.
The Jews had one way of looking at God; the Sumerians had another way. As did the Norse, the Greeks, the Celts, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Native Americans, the Aboriginies...
I know this may be a rather untraditional view, but I believe there IS only one God, PRev, and always has only been one God. Since the beginning of time, humans have tried to describe and to imagine God. Some things they got right, and some things they didn't. In our efforts to understand who God is and what God is like, we tend to personify God in a way that makes sense to us - but also make the mistake of creating God in our image. Patriarchal societies depict God as a father; matriarchal societies worshipped a mother deity. Warlike societies imagined a warlike God of violence; agrarian societies worshipped a God or Goddess of the harvest.
But God is so much bigger than all of that (I believe). The Jews made some of the same mistakes as other cultures - when they've described God as cruel, unfair, bloodthirsty, or advocating them to slaughter their enemies and collect the spoils. But at other times, they got it right and described what God is really like - a vast, infinite spirit being who is omnipresent; our Creator; our provider; God is love and justice and compassion; God desires mercy rather than sacrifice. God wants us above all, to love one another, help one another, carry each other's burdens. A God who fills the universe, but can also live in our hearts.
Please excuse my use of simple "cut-n-paste" at this juncture of our discussion...
But, Wikipedia sums it up nicely...
The Gospel of John developed over a period of time in various stages, summarized by Raymond E. Brown as follows:
1. An initial version based on personal experience of Jesus;
2. A structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources;
3. The final harmony that presently exists in the New Testament canon, around 85-90 AD.
In view of this complex and multi-layered history it is meaningless to speak of a single "author" of John, but the title perhaps belongs best to the evangelist who came at the end of this process. The final composition's comparatively late date, and its insistence upon Jesus as a divine being walking the earth in human form, renders it highly problematical to scholars who attempt to evaluate Jesus' life in terms of literal historical truth.
The point to note is "3"...
-- The final harmony that presently exists in the New Testament canon, around 85-90 AD.
This "harmony" is "harmonious" ONLY...
With that version of "christianity"....
Which was first initiated by...
The Self-Proclaimed "Apostle"...
-- Paul.
The "insistence upon Jesus as a divine being walking the earth in human form"
IS the Gentile Perversion which I mentioned...
-- In my Previous Post.
These later redactions to the text of "John's" gospel...
Served to make "Jesus" more palatable...
To the Primarily Pagan Community of Rome...
To whom, the Demi-gods of Greek and Roman Mythology...
Would have been common knowledge.
Yes, I agree...
The definition of "god-head" has seen...
As many permutations as there have been tribal gatherings.
The definition created by "christianity"...
Is just one more among the many.
And...
It is just as equally... In Error.
Jesus...
If, in fact, he did actually exist...
Was Just a Man...
-- Like any other.
-PRev1-
President Barrack Hussein Obama
-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
...clearly, emphatically stated that the Word was Jesus, and the Word was God. If that was not the same writer as the rest of the gospel, if it was a later addition from a pagan perspective, then perhaps its because the pagans understood something about God that the Jews did not. Many other pagan symbols, practices, and ideas were incorporated into the Christian faith -- some Christians ignore them, some sanitize them, some reject them. For the most part, I embrace them. =) There is, and always has been, only one God.
Even if it was written by a different author, when the Bible was compiled, those verses were accepted as true and inspired by the Christian church. Whether or not we ourselves accept or believe the deity of Christ is a secondary point -- the author of that passage did, and that passage is accepted as scripture by all Christians. But as we both know, not even all Christians believe in the deity of Christ (which has led to some creative interpretations of John chapter 1) but the message is very plain: the Word was with God, the Word was God, the Word became a human being, Jesus of Nazareth.
If that was the only indication of the deity of Christ, and it was thought to be a questionable passage (like, for instance, John 5:3b-4, or Mark 16:9-20), I might feel differently. But it's not. It's definitely the clearest declaration, but there are others. I know you are familiar with the scriptures that indicate the deity of Christ -- with your background, I'm sure you know them better than I do.
Just for one example, only God is to be worshipped. Yet Jesus was worshipped by the Magi (Matthew 2:11), by his disciples in the boat after he calmed the storm (Matthew 14:33), the Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:25), the leper (Matthew 8:2), the man born blind (John 9:38), his followers after the resurrection (Matthew 28:9,17), and his disciples following the ascension (Luke 24:52). There is no mention that Jesus ever rejected this worship, or rebuked those who were worshipping him. Contrast that with the words of the angel in Revelation 22:9, when John fell at the angel's feet and began to worship him:
But he said to me, Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!
You are putting too much emphasis on the English word "worship"...
May 4 2012, 9:19 AM
Proskuneo -- to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank to the Jewish high priests to God to Christ to heavenly beings to demons
In the original Greek...
It is merely a token of reverence...
And, not an indication of Godhead.
As a respected Rabbi and, the Messianic Priest/King...
Jesus wouldn't have rejected such expressions of respect or supplication.
However, when asked about "good things"...
Jesus clearly diverted even the most fleeting thought...
That he could Possibly be compared to God...
By responding...
Matthew 19:17 --
"Why are you asking Me about what is good?
There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life,
keep the commandments."
No Kate...
The idea that the rational thought of God had become incarnate in the body of Jesus Christ...
Is, as I said before, nothing more than the Pagan Perversion of a Jewish concept.
Considering the concept of the Deity of Christ...
To have been gained by the Gentiles...
Through some sort of special insight...
Completely ignores the Greek and Roman Pantheons...
Of Incarnate Gods and Demigods...
Who Came Before Him.
It is not a case of "special insight"...
But, rather...
It is merely the continuation of a theme.
-PRev1-
President Barrack Hussein Obama
-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
I first came across the two different translations for proskuneo while studying what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. I used to have a copy of the Kingdom Greek Interlinear, which was an invaluable resource in understanding their doctrine.
Proskuneo is used 55 times in the New Testament:
15 times in reference to Jesus
19 times in reference to God
9 times in reference to the dragon/beast/image
2 times in reference to the Devil
6 times generically (as in "he went there to worship" or "he worshipped at the altar")
and one time each in reference to demons, idols, Peter, and the angel I mentioned in the passage from Revelation
What's interesting to note is that in almost every single instance whether referring to God, idols, demons, or the Devil, proskuneo is translated as "worship". In the one reference to Peter and two of the generic references, it is translated "did obeisance"...as well as in all 15 references to Christ. The JW's have quite methodically attempted to scrub any reference to the deity of Jesus from their Bible translation -- even going so far as inserting words into the text to say that the Word was "[a] god", and "all [other] things were created by him."
For the visitation of the Magi, it makes sense that proskuneo could be translated as "did obeisance". The Magi had no reason to believe the infant Jesus was the Son of God, they had come to pay respects to a king. But the other references: when his disciples witnessed him walking on water; when the desperate mother knelt at his feet, confident that he could cure her demon possessed daughter; when the man who had been blind since birth could finally see; when the leper was cured of a disease that was thought incurable, and had robbed him of his life, his family, his place in society; the ruler who knew that Jesus could raise his daughter from the dead; when the disciples saw Jesus alive after he had been crucified, and when they saw him taken up into heaven...they weren't just paying respects to a king. And even though the word proskuneo is not used, when Jesus appeared to Thomas and showed him his wounds, and Thomas said, "My Lord and my God!", he was worshipping the risen Christ.
Matthew 19:17 is an interesting verse. Jesus said, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good."
I see these as very similar passages:
Mark 2:1-12 "A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Son, your sins are forgiven.' Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 'Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?' Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this is what they were hiding in their hearts, and he said to them, 'Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, "Your sins are forgiven," or to say, "Get up, take your mat and walk"? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . .' He said to the paralytic, 'I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.' He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, 'We have never seen anything like this!'"
Matthew 21:23-27 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?" But Jesus answered and said to them, "I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: The baptism of John -- where was it from? From heaven or from men?" And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?' But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet." So they answered Jesus and said, "We do not know." And He said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things."
worship or obeisance, the Magi and other items of misunderstanding...
May 5 2012, 8:36 AM
The point to consider is that...
When the Greek was translated into English...
It was done by...
Christians who believed in the Deity of Jesus.
But...
There is a more mundane translation...
Which could, even more easily, have been used.
So, why wasn't the mundane version used...?
Quite simply...
It's a case of...
-- Biased Self-Interest.
And...
Without the Deity of Jesus...
Christianity, as we know it...
-- Ceases to Exist.
As for the Magi...?
They had every reason to believe that Jesus was the "Son of God".
In precisely the same manner as David and Solomon were Sons of God.
You see...
While the Magi WERE Babylonian Astrologers...
They were also... Babylonian Jews.
And...
In the same way that the Therapeuts...
Were the Egyptian Branch of the Essenes...
The Magi were members of...
The Babylonian Branch of the Essenes.
Jesus walking on water...?
Well, that's another misconception...
For which, there is a perfectly mundane answer.
On the edge of the Dead Sea...
Below the community of Qumran...
There was a pier that jutted out into the water.
This pier was used by the Essenes...
As part of their initiation process.
In a Baptism Ceremony...
Reenacting the Great Flood of Noah's day...
New Proselytes would swim out from the shore...
To a fishing boat that was tied at the end of the pier.
Once there, they would be hauled into the boat...
By members of the Essene Priesthood...
Thus, being "rescued" from the "sins" of the World.
The whole thing was performed...
Under the direct supervision of...
The Essene High Priest...
Standing on the pier...
Between the shore...
And the boat.
From either vantage point...
-- the boat OR the shore...
It appeared as though...
The High Priest was...
-- "Walking on Water".
Jesus, as the High Priest of the Essenes...
Would have supervised such a Baptismal Ceremony.
And, of course...
Paul's Gentile Congregation...
Being ignorant of the Truth...
Readily believed...
With the Guileless Gullibility of Children...
-- The Impossible.
But Jesus said we were to be wise as sepents...
And Paul told his followers...
That they should leave...
Their Childish Things Behind.
Tales of the "Supernatural" Jesus...
Are like Pablum for Babies.
But...
We all grow out of it...
-- In due time.
-PRev1-
President Barrack Hussein Obama
-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
A priest and a Baptist minister go golfing on their favorite course every Wednesday, and one week they invite their friend, a rabbi, along. They get to the 13th hole, where there's a water trap; sure enough, the priest hits his ball into the water. The rabbi is just about to say, oh, bad luck there, when without missing a beat, the priest walks out on the water and retrieves the ball. He walks back to shore and is ready to play on. The Baptist minister doesn't seem fazed, but the rabbi's jaw drops in shock. Next the minister takes a swing, and he too, hits the ball out in the water trap. He shrugs his shoulders and walks out on the water, retrieves his ball, and comes back to shore.
The rabbi rubs his eyes in disbelief, but thinks to himself, "Well, I remember hearing something about these Christians and the Jesus-walking-on-water-thing." So he swings, and sure enough, his ball goes out in the water, too. He looks at his Catholic and Baptist friends and says, "Well, if you Christians can do this, then so can I." He strides purposefully out to walk on the water, and promptly sinks over his head into the deep pond.
The priest turns to the minister and says, "Hmmm...do you suppose we should have told him where the rocks are that we've been walking on?"
*****************************************
So...Jesus was walking on a pier. And he knew about the pier, but his followers, including Peter, did not. So Peter said, "Lord, if its you, tell me to come to you on the water." And Jesus told Peter to come out on the water...but neglected to mention the pier. Peter started to walk on the water, but when he got scared by the wind and waves, that's when he started to sink. And Jesus admonished him -- gently -- for losing faith. Then they came back into the boat and everyone said to Jesus, "You are the Son of God! In precisely the same manner as David and Solomon, of course..." and worshipped him. Or did obeisance to him.
And Jesus just let them all worship him...and didn't mention that he was standing on a pier, and wasn't that a great joke he played on Peter. Or maybe they were paying homage to him because of the great joke he played on Peter?
Hmm. Well, I guess that's one way of looking at it. =)
Or maybe, Jesus was walking on cornstarch? Or sediment churned up by an earthquake? Or he invented sandals that worked like insect feet?
I dunno. But the story, as recorded -- Peter walking out to join him, losing courage and starting to sink, and then all of the men in the boat declaring he was the Son of God and worshipping him...makes more sense to me that he was...just walking on the water. Don't think it would be any harder than curing someone of leprosy, or restoring sight to a person who had been blind since birth.
But you know...I'm still on pablum. I'm sure I'll figure all this stuff out when I'm grown up. =)
Peter couldn't "walk on water" with Jesus...
Because...
He was afraid of the "storm" that would be caused...
When the False Priesthood in Jerusalem found out that...
-- Jesus WAS "walking on water".
In Supervising such a Baptismal Ceremony...
Jesus was claiming that he WAS...
The Legitimate, Zadokite High Priest.
It was a direct challenge to the Usurpers in Jerusalem.
While Peter's faith was shaken...
At the kind trouble they were brewing...
Jesus Held His Position.
-- Jesus WAS the Messianic, Zadokite High Priest.
-- Jesus WAS the "Son of God"...
-- Just as David and Solomon were before him.
And...
The rest of the disciples...
Acknowledged him IN that Position...
With signs of profound reverence...
Like, kneeling before him...
Or...
As Cardinals do when they are introduced to the Pope...
They may have kissed his hand.
-- Or, maybe even... his feet.
As for the Miraculous "healings"...
-- They weren't.
The lepers, the lame, the blind...
Even the DEAD...
Are merely metaphors...
Applied to people...
Who had been declared spiritually "unclean"...
And cast out...
By the False Priests of Jerusalem.
Jesus "Healed" them by declaring them to be ritually "cleansed"...
And, reinstating them as members of his community.
As the Legitimate, Messianic, Zadokite High Priest...
Jesus had Full Authority to do that.
Which was...
Just another little bee...
In the bonnet of the Sadducees.
And, I can assure you...
No cornstarch or trick sandals were involved.
--[Edited to ADD the Following]--
BTW...
The disciples and the proselytes all knew about the pier.
-- That's how the disciples got TO the boat...
And...
-- It's how everyone got BACK to the shore.
--[End of Edit]--
-PRev1-
President Barrack Hussein Obama
-- Nobel Peace Prize, 2009 --
"War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."
-- George Orwell, "1984" --
"If you suddenly think Stephen Colbert is truly right wing, that's when I would worry."
-- Neuropsychologist Katherine Rankin.
This message has been edited by PRev1 on May 6, 2012 12:33 PM
![[linked image]](http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc319/8-DJ/truth-itworks.gif)