Scriptures, and other myths, say that God determined that men should rule over women. This gives form, --- in a demographic sense, ---- to our common and society, and says that our demographic pyramid should have a hierarchical shape and or form. This initiates tension and has God demonizing woman, as well as any notion of female equality with man.
His motive must be for the good of women. Somehow!
After all, sanctity of the family is one of the main points of morality.
God was arguably right for his time. Think in the barbaric way. Below the belt. Thank God that time is almost past. Women in our modern world do not need mans dubious ape like help. I hope you agree. Be honest now with yourself be you male or female.
Men have dominated women long enough I think. To give them equality would be justice.
What do you think?
What would real men do?
What would real women demand?
Do men and women have what it takes to be free?
Justice under law should be gender and age neutral, with limits, but with a good spirit of assuring equality. We do not administer that justice. We only give it lip service. Men are not walking their talk. Neither are women.
In Gods timocracy, a place of government in which love of honor is the ruling principle. All honors go to the Queen and her children. A kings first responsibility is to insure the veneration of his queen. Honor demands it. He accepts this burden and pleasure wisely. The Queen, as the Beta archetype is the life of the kingdom. The archetypal kings duty is to raise womans position. That means that all men have the same duty. That of not denying women equality and elevating her.
Men. Be good kings. You are making good just men look bad. Step up.
God wills it.
propositions which imply their own negation are necessarily false whereas propositions implied by their own negation are necessarily true
rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -
Can you believe these literalists are still so unaware?
May 25 2012, 5:53 PM
And our ole matey Paul, always good for a laugh...
"For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man
Wives should regard their husbands as they regard the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is a husband the head of his wife; and as the Church submits to Christ, so should wives to their husbands, in everything
As in all the churches of the saints, women are to remain quiet at meetings since they have no permission to speak; they must remain in the background as the Law itself lays it down. If they have any questions to ask, they should ask their husbands at home: it does not seem right for a woman to raise her voice at meetings.
Similarly, I direct that women are to wear suitable clothes and to be dressed quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold and jewellery or expensive clothes; their adornment is to do the sort of good works that are proper for women who profess to be religious. During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I am not giving permission for a woman to teach or to tell a man what to do. A woman ought not to speak, because Adam was formed first and Eve afterwards, and it was not Adam who was led astray but the woman who was led astray and fell into sin. Nevertheless, she will be saved by childbearing, provided she lives a modest life and is constant in faith and love and holiness
Jackie, for your own good, I think you need to learn to not see
May 25 2012, 8:16 PM
those parts of the bible which would cause Christians concern, if they were to actually absorb them.
The Moslems read the same things, and acted upon them, and look where it left them very violent and unstable, but dont worry, they dont see that either because the Koran OKd it.
As for the bible literalists. they are a lot like the moslems, but dont see that either.
You need to ignore the bad bits so much that they arent even there.
I don't think the whole Bible is current, the reality of women in society today don't have much to do with the old school thoughts of the Bible.
Concerning a wife;
Ephesians5:28
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Concerning women and men, Jesus said;
John 13:34
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
You know I gave away my old Bibles (and a Koran WAY back, I had a Koran before a Bible), cos it seemed a book that has some neat stuff in it, but on the whole, not such neat (by that I mean worthwhile) stuff in it.
Then as the years went on in my journey I learned about metaphors and Hidden Mysteries and the such and I could read certain wisdoms of the Bible in a different way, BUT I had got to most of these already via many other directions.
So I am loathe to really discard the Bible totally, loads of history, loads of esotericism, BUT I don't see much good in a child reading it, or a literacist.
We knew / know of Love and Compassion already, some just chose / choose to discard these.
SMile. I was really having a little fun with cussing at Paul (though I believe that such crap talk from anyone is a party to barrier making and violence and false superiority. So such talks is NOT to be taken lightly and the Bible should NOT be in the hands of little ones or literacists (as I already said .
What worries me is that when I hear this sort of crap from Nuccy, I can flick it and him away, no problem. BUt I also hear it from, well, in a certain case, from a most beloved Christian friend over the years, that man indeed is the Head of the Household, that is the order of things. And he is really a very dear and funny person.
THAT I cannot understand. Well, yes of course I do and that makes me want to shake him and say THINK FOR YOURSELF!!
The Bozone Layer is made up from stuff surrounding people preventing sound ideas from penetrating skulls and entering minds.
I thus see dumb people, no really. They're everywhere, and most of them don't even realize they're dumb. They post messages like everyone else on message boards and the likes. Some of them post here.
Then again, we all are "dumb" in whatever area(s), i.e., no one is an expert on everything, except for, of course, ardent believers, politicians and James Bond.
It always seems so easy to recognize alleged fault in others, but how about our own, do we recognize those just as easily?
rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -
From those, and similar, passages, I get the distinct impression Paul didn't like women very much. And after studying some of his other writings as well to get a bigger picture of who Paul really was...I also get the feeling Paul didn't "like" women either. But that's another topic. Even Paul got it right once in a while: Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Okay, then Paul, if men and women are all one in Christ Jesus, then why do you keep treating women as subservient and second class?
OTOH, Jesus treated women with compassion and inclusion, in a way that was totally outside the norm for Jewish society in that time and place. He spoke to women publicly (even foreign women that the Jews despised), included women in his ministry, had women that were close friends, spoke up for the woman caught in adultery and the sinful woman (presumed a prostitute) who washed his feet with her tears.
Both men AND women were created in the image of God.
Genesis 1:26-28
26 Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
Genesis 5:1-3
1 This is the written account of Adams family line.
When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them "Mankind" when they were created.
Even the "alternate" story in Genesis 2 that says Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs does not say that she was created in Adam's image or likeness.
Yes, of course I AM approved. How can IT be otherwise, lil bro?
Hey babe, I found this on a Yoga forum.
I am the feminine.
I am the masculine.
I am one and I am both.
My darkness can be trying.
My lightness can be blinding.
But in balance there is harmony.
There is always a choice to make.
Which one will it be?
The path of surrender,
Or the one of resistance?
They both lead to the same goal.
The darkness is only the void
That you travel from time to time.
The lightness is the intuition that
Gently guides you from within.
The resistance is to fight the elements.
The surrender is to embrace the flow.
How many falls will you create before
You walk on steady ground?
Which is better for you?
Harmony and freedom,
Or chaos and turmoil?
What about balance and stability?
I am Yin and I am Yang.
And I can be all that at once.
The choice is yours to make.
Nucc and my loving hubby in the same sentence, I should never be forgiven. Smile!
Love
Jackie
Something interesting for you, Arty - ans me actually.
Richard Dawkins supports school Bible plan
Leading atheist Richard Dawkins says he supports the plan to put a Bible in every English school.
The privately funded distribution of King James Bibles began this month to mark its 400th anniversary.
Prof Dawkins, writing in the Observer, said: "It is not a moral book and young people need to learn that important fact because they are very frequently told the opposite".
Critics have said it is unlikely that schools do not already have a Bible.
Education Secretary Michael Gove supported the plan, saying the text had had "an immense influence" on the English-speaking world.
He said pupils should learn about its role in the nation's history, language, literacy and culture.
Prof Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist at Oxford, said: "A native speaker of English who has never read a word of the King James Bible is verging on the barbarian."
"People who do not know the Bible well have been gulled into thinking it is a good guide to morality."
He added: "I have even heard the cynically misanthropic opinion that, without the Bible as a moral compass, people would have no restraint against murder, theft and mayhem.
"The surest way to disabuse yourself of this pernicious falsehood is to read the Bible itself."
Continue reading the main story
KING JAMES BIBLE
54 scholars, all members of the Church of England, were chosen to work on the translation and 47 completed the task in 1611
They drew heavily on the work of William Tyndale, who was one of the first to translate the Bible into English from Hebrew and Greek
It was all at the request of King James I, who was unhappy with existing translations. He frequently visited the scholars at work
Phrases we still use include: No peace for the wicked (Isaiah 57:21), The blind leading the blind (Matthew 15:13) and God forbid (Romans 13:1)
Although he questioned whether any child would actually read it, he said: "Whatever else the Bible might be - and it really is a great work of literature - it is not a moral book and young people need to learn that important fact because they are very frequently told the opposite."
He added: "Not a bad way to find out what's in a book is to read it, so I say go to it. But does anybody, even Gove, seriously think they will?"
In the same way that Mr Gove wanted pupils to learn about its wide influence, Prof Dawkins emphasised the Bible's contribution to literature.
"The whole King James Bible is littered with literary allusions, almost as many as Shakespeare (to quote that distinguished authority Anon, the trouble with Hamlet is it's so full of cliches)."
Among the examples he used to illustrate his point were: the salt of the earth; go the extra mile; I wash my hands of it; filthy lucre; through a glass darkly; wolf in sheep's clothing; hide your light under a bushel; and no peace for the wicked.
The Bible distribution costs of £370,000 are being funded by charities and philanthropists.
Its a bit sad when people nick your virtual chocolates.
I dont know about him wanting to hand out bibles, Gideons do it for a reason, although their choice of location might have a lot of logic to it.
I think in school settings, yes bibles might only be used to make fun of it (read critically analyse it). I guess dicky wants to deflate any mystery in them, especially in the US where the government schools might not have them.
Over on johns forum, Nuccs been pasting denunciations of atheists, which I intend to show to my kids, and let them find the mis statements for themselves. Obviously the uncritical might be impressed with their facts, but most people arent that uncritical to accept it all unquestioned. When you think could this be true?, replies pop up very easily that they are not actually all that truthful at all. Their arguments can be popped quite easily if one doesnt accept it all verbatim.
They can be their own worst enemy. Certainly guys like Nucc and Onesog changed me from an agnostic to an atheist (I think no one comes to be an atheist, without being convinced by guys like them. Guys like Dicky just feed the already converted, people have to be convinced that agnosticism is a poor response to the energised ignorance of the Taliban (afgan or US) it doesnt matter which, they are extremes of the same monster.
"(I think no one comes to be an atheist, without being convinced by guys like them)"
We are born in our natural state and then comes other people's beliefs influences.
If we are lucky, we get to make our own choices. If we are unlucky we get other people's being grounded into us as facts.
At some point comes a retaliation and that is where we get atheism, I guess. I would say agnosticism is an understandable concept in the main, with the way the Norm is accepted as, well, the norm,
Yep, Dickie wants the bibles in the schools for the kids to 'see through ir', as such, but he doubts, as I do, that many would be that interested to wade through it.
Yep, N & O give Christianity a bad reputation and a need to keep that sort of crap thinking away from the susceptible, like children. So action is needed against the whole Fundy movement, but I wouldn't waste much of my time with anything like serious conversation anymore with the individuals of these movements, there is no point. One can really only 'fight' fundamentalism with Wisdom...
Whatever that may mean! Maybe letting kids use their own intuitions and insights and to try and get across the awesomeness of uniqueness of the diverseness of humanity. Exclusive-ality (?)) ) stinks!
Don't worry about the chocs. I can make up for disappointments like that:
Good to "see" you too. =) I haven't been posting as much lately -- things are in flux at work, I am transitioning to a new position, and my mother has been quite ill (doing better now). Most of my limited posting time has been on a political board I found that is quite interesting. Most of the posters there are American and decidedly left-of-center (like me), but not a place to discuss religion, spirituality, or philosophy, and I do miss that.
Glad you are enjoying the sun. We've had a lengthy mild spring here, but the temperatures are heating up and it will be in the 90's F this week. Ack, too warm for me! But the wheel of the year is turning, and in just a few weeks it will be Litha/Summer Solstice, so that's as it should be. The extreme heat is hard for me, but it doesn't last forever, and I try to appreciate as many things about summer as I can. =)
just curious why no religion there. Is it that left of centre is not so interested in superstition, its its thrust at that forum only political, or that your religion clashes with theirs?
I know that we rarely discuss religion at my work, possibly because the guys there dont like the thinking that accompanies the guys who want to think about it?
At my last university, I cant remember the topic ever being mentioned, Maybe the last guy who mentioned their christianity might have been 5 or 6 years ago at my current one, who just mentioned he was on some catholic committee, a conversation that petered out pretty quickly, and maybe my last hearing of god was a year or two ago from two muslims who were getting kicked out of their "prayer room" because the department needed the space. It was a meeting room just off the staff room where I come from, they had no hope of keeping it (we didnt even know what they were up to in there until then), just curious if it is in the case in the US often (that ones religion comes up in their every day conversation?
You know like the moslems always seem to insert "if god wills it..... god be praised.... god is greatest... instead of a full stop in every sentence)
It's because the board topic specifies that is for political discussion. There are at least two atheists that post there, a couple of people that have identified as agnostics, I know there is one other guy who hasn't said, but from some of the things he has posted, I believe he is from a liberal denomination like me (United Methodist). And one other regular poster who mentioned something about being Methodist but she attends church with her husband who is Baptist (and there are some BIG doctrinal differences there, believe me LOL).
Religion typically doesn't get brought up, unless somehow it intersects with politics and current events. It's sometimes hard to not discuss religious beliefs at all when discussing politics, because at least some of our political views are affected by our religious beliefs and moral convictions. I strongly believe in social justice, aid to the poor, fairness to the working people, prison reform, the rights of women, minorities, and gays, that the wealthy should pay their fair share in taxes for the good of all, and shouldn't be able to avoid doing so through loophole laws and regulations, etc. All of those beliefs are rooted very deeply in my faith.
My workplace is very diverse, and I work with people of a lot of different faiths and cultures. Typically, conversations about religion and politics are avoided in the workplace to avoid stepping on anyone's toes, although some people might discuss things discreetly with co-workers they know are like-minded (so no one will take offense). But it's really best to avoid even that. One co-worker overheard me mention something about going to church to a friend, and took that as an invitation to start discussing religion with me -- and as an ultra-conservative Christian man, lecturing me about a woman's proper place, and submission to my husband, and....well, you can imagine, that didn't go over real well with me. LOL And unfortunately, I had to sit next to this guy, and it took several days of changing the subject and ignoring him before he figured out that I wasn't really interested in his opinions about a Christian woman's place and role. I could have complained to my supervisor, but didn't want the conflict and didn't really want to get the guy into trouble, so I just waited until he finally got the message. =) For some people their faith is evident in what they wear, like a Sikh co-worker wearing a turban, or my Wiccan friend who wears a pentacle necklace. I know I have Muslim co-workers, so I assume there is a place for them to pray at work, if they are observant of that, but they aren't rolling out prayer rugs in the middle of the office. There are no women wearing burqas, and no one would be allowed to cover their faces (I work for a local governmental agency, and we have to have security badges with our picture id's on them), but there are some women who cover their hair.
I guess scarves are culturally OK, after all, the bible directs that
June 2 2012, 4:14 AM
and some christian cults mandate it.
Muslims are getting pretty common around here, are they common in the USA, or is it that you are in a government department that affirmative action is getting them work?
We have a Malaysian and an Egyptian, who most certainly dont proselytise, but are very up to date on world events.
I'm afraid our token women (a PHd from the Nedalands) gave it up last year, and I only realised she was gone for good, about 3 weeks ago.
She was a shocking pedant, and wasnt really missed, although she had a heart of gold.
I wouldnt know what religions, if any, the rest of us have, but around here, its usually "who cares"?
I wonder why sharing religion is such a temptation? I suspect it gives the feeling that some arbitrary group of people have a certain shared something, that makes them special, even though as we see on the internet, what they assume they share seems rarely to actually exist when they actually get together and compare notes.
So maybe, often it doesnt matter what religion you adhere to, there are also subgroups of culture, politics, experiences, age and interests that also count, and may even be more important to some than their superstitious beliefs.
and of course some will never find peer connection with anyone especially if they are similar. (thinking of the guy who Jackie grabbed the baubles off.)
I do think that religion instructs your politics, or your politics steers your choice of religion most often.
or maybe your IQ qualifies what you believe as well. Are you a black and white rather than shades of grey person? What does that say about your politics/religion/cultural outlook?
So many dimensions of influences on us, why would we hope to all see the same things?
for instance, Sandy has seen Jesus. That must have influenced her profoundly, and yet it influences me not at all.
I live in a pretty diverse city, and where I work is very progressive. I don't think Affirmative Action has anything to do with it, at least not at my workplace; the best qualified candidates get the jobs. But the fact that we are known to be progressive may encourage more multi-cultural people to apply? I don't really know. But we actually have an Office of Inclusion that plans activities, seminars, etc to make people more aware about diversity, more tolerant of our differences, and less likely to offend or step on someone else's toes.
Head coverings are common in many different religions and cultures -- turbans, scarves, etc. Covering one's face wouldn't be acceptable at my workplace because of our security requirements -- but if you think about it, the ultra-conservative branches of Islam that require women to wear a burqa or have their faces veiled don't typically encourage women to be independent, work full time outside the home, or even drive cars. I believe it's still against the law for women to drive in Saudi Arabia, and they are considered to be a fairly progressive Muslim nation, if I understand correctly.
I was kind of wondering when this might be brought up...why do people feel compelled to share their religion? Well, not everyone does. Some do, and some feel they are mandated or obligated to, and here is why:
There are essentially two broad types of religion in the world: one path or many paths. Those who adhere to the "many paths" philosophy feel that there are many different valid spiritual experiences, and someone else's path to God may be different than our own. They tend to be live and let live kind of folks. Those who believe there is only "one path" believe exactly that -- there is only one way to get to heaven/please God, and theirs is the only way -- everyone else is mistaken.
Of the "one path" believers (including Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, among others), there is again a split into two broad types: inclusive and exclusive. Exclusive believers think that they have the only true faith, but they don't search out converts. Judaism is a good example. It is very, very, difficult for a Gentile to convert to Judaism (although I know one family that did it). Some branches of Islam are the same way -- they have the only truth, and they aren't interested in converting others outside their culture.
Then there are the "one path, inclusive" believers -- they believe they are following the only true way, but they are more than willing to allow in converts and may actively proselytize.
And one last sub category: "one path, inclusive, and it's my responsibility to share this truth with everyone". That would be most Christians, especially the evangelical ones, and also including Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I know they can be incredibly annoying (I used to be a Fundamentalist, although I was not very good at it). But please try to understand -- they share the gospel with you and try to tell you about Jesus because they truly believe it is their responsibility to do so and that you are lost and will be separated from God for all eternity if you don't believe. They truly do believe that it's their responsibility to warn you, and that they are disobeying God if they don't try to tell you.
Doesn't make it less annoying, but I hope that helps explain it a bit...
(edited to correct spelling)
This message has been edited by kateothelamp on Jun 3, 2012 1:10 PM
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