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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

July 30 2012 at 8:23 PM
  (Login GreatestIam)

 
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankinds responsibility and not some imaginary Gods. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=1205

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of its nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

 
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Tim
(no login)

Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

July 31 2012, 2:41 AM 

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
-------------------------------------------------

Let me explain DL.
Evolution from the Platypus to the Duck.
And evolution from the mouse to a bat.
And evolution from lizards to pterodactyl.

They all appeared in the fossil records DL.
They did NOT deform but they appeared.

Show me one species that evolved DL.

Evolution is another Catholic concoction to deceive people.

Tim





 
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(Login GreatestIam)

Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

July 31 2012, 4:37 PM 

Man evolved and the documentation is irrefutable.
Except to fools.

Regards
DL

 
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Tim
(no login)

Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

August 1 2012, 3:38 AM 

Man evolved and the documentation is irrefutable.
Except to fools.
Regards
DL
------------------------------------

I said SHOW ME, you butt head.
Your not getting off that easy DL.

BTW the USA kicked ass on the French tonight in swimming.
I thought you'd like to ponder that.

LOL wink.gif
Tim

 
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JVH say
(Login JVH)

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

July 31 2012, 7:58 AM 

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -- Epicurus

Schematic:

If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.
See Epicurus

Refinement:

God exists.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
An omnipotent being has the power to prevent evils from coming into existence.
A being that knows every way in which evil can come into existence; able to prevent evil from coming into existence; and wants to do so, would prevent the existence of evil.
If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being, then no evil exists.
Evil exists.
Therefore, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent god does not.
 

As Epicurus put it:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

 

- propositions which imply their own negation are necessarily false whereas propositions implied by their own negation are necessarily true -




rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -

New!! Improved!! Now With CDEH-Formula!!
[linked image]

CD: short for inevitability

 
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(Login GreatestIam)

Re: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

July 31 2012, 4:38 PM 

Omnipotence is not the issue.

You and your doing evil is.

Can you help doing evil?

Regards
DL

 
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JVH say
(Login JVH)

When you mention evil, and in reference to 'god'

August 1 2012, 3:41 AM 

 

.... or vice versa, you inevitably refer to the evil paradox, hence the reference to Epicurus

 

- propositions which imply their own negation are necessarily false whereas propositions implied by their own negation are necessarily true -




rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -

New!! Improved!! Now With CDEH-Formula!!
[linked image]

CD: short for inevitability

 
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Tim
(no login)

Well you found you place didn't you JVH

August 1 2012, 4:36 AM 

For Epicurus, the purpose of philosophy was to attain the happy, tranquil life, characterized by ataraxiapeace and freedom from fearand aponiathe absence of painand by living a self-sufficient life surrounded by friends. He taught that pleasure and pain are the measures of what is good and evil; death is the end of both body and soul and should therefore not be feared; the gods do not reward or punish humans; the universe is infinite and eternal; and events in the world are ultimately based on the motions and interactions of atoms moving in empty space.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"motions and interactions of atoms moving in empty space"

I feel sorry for ya JVH.
I know we've had our tugs and pulls.

Take care man.

Tim

 
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(Login GreatestIam)

Re: When you mention evil, and in reference to 'god'

August 1 2012, 10:25 AM 

Paradox. Perhaps.

More of a catch 22. It is a requirement for evolution and the survival of the fittest. We must all do evil/compete or die.

Regards
DL

 
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(Premier Login Oscar50)
Moderator

We must eat

August 1 2012, 11:15 AM 

And for us to eat, other living organisms must die.

Maybe the Gnostics are right.

 
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JVH say
(Login JVH)

When you mention evil, and in reference to 'god'

August 2 2012, 4:23 AM 

If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent being, then no evil exists.
Evil exists.

Ergo, a paradox.

So, if evil, as you propose, is a requirement for evolution and the survival of the fittest; that we must all do evil/compete or die .... then what is your point?

 

 

- propositions which imply their own negation are necessarily false whereas propositions implied by their own negation are necessarily true -




rejected and denied by many, accepted and embraced by few : falsifiability
- it is not what we (think we) know that matters, it is what we can show true that does
as the maxim demands; truth is demonstrably fact and fact is demonstrably true
everything else ... mere BS -

New!! Improved!! Now With CDEH-Formula!!
[linked image]

CD: short for inevitability

 
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