Is Sayers ready to resume his career as Yorkshire's opener?
March 26 2009 at 12:30 PM
Karl Morser (no login)
Joe Sayers' great form in the Pro ARCH was one of the highlights of tournament for me, especially since it was achieved in the revved-up one day format. He even hit a six.
Does this purple patch indicate the second coming of Mr. Sayers and his return as Yorkshire's opener? As Joe noted in another thread, if he can return to the form of his early career, Yorkshire will rapidly move up the table.
I think Sayers will open in our 1st CC match and why not?
Thoughout 2008 our opening partnership was a major concern, to be honest no combination instilled much confidence. Assuming Vaughan opens, then the candidates for the other spot appear to be Taylor, Gale, Lyth and Sayers. My take is Gale and Lyth battle it out for the number 5 slot with Lyth just edging it, then Taylor and Sayers do battle for the opening position with Sayers getting the nod.
Sayers had become to defenive and to 'on side'. He really had reached the stage of leaving all the bad balls and blocking everything else. Enevitably a good ball comes along, scores are low, confidence goes and it's game (career?!!) over. The scores from the UAE suggest he's playing more positively which I think is a good way forward.
Everyone has a poor trot from time to time and if you open the innings, don't bowl and are not in the one day team its hard to sometimes get yourself out of a barren spell.
I think Joe in the one day team may be of benefit to him in the 4 day game as well and lets not forget he was talked about as captaincy material a few years back so he could be back on track to succeed at the top of the order and be our next long term skipper as he would be a one day and four day player as well.
Of course the problem is if he scores runs for us then he may be the answer to Englands number 3 problem.....
Re: Is Sayers ready to resume his career as Yorkshire's opener?
March 26 2009, 1:24 PM
He should be in, he's our only real natural opener, from the interviews and comments I've heard it seems he's expanded his range of shots. He got in to the trap of being way too defensive. A Sayers in form at least solves half the problem of the opening pair, Vaughan/Lyth/Gale etc. any ideas???????????????????
Agree Joe appears to be in prime position now for one of the openers slot. It is early days and his matches have been friendlies and against teams with several reserves in, but he has been very impressive. His 1 day form could well be the resurrection of his career, I hope so as it will benefit the team immensely and will be excellent for Joe himself. I would play him in the one-day games as well as this form of cricket seems to have kick-started him again. We appear now to have solved one problem but created another as we have 6 batsmen fighting for 5 slots. Judging by the performances in the 4 friendlies Andrew Gale looks the most likely to miss out, unless we play all 6 batsmen and manage with 4 bowlers plus the occasional bowling of Mags and Vaughan.
4 day team?
Sayers, Vaughan, Mags, Rudolph, Gale, Lyth, Brophy, Rashid, Bresnan, Naved, Hoggy. (or the extra bowler instead of Gale - Patterson, Shazed, Wainwright or Kruis).
Pyrah and Wainwright in for Gale and Rashid in the 1 dayers.
Can not see how Taylor and Hodgson are going to get a game.
Re: Is Sayers ready to resume his career as Yorkshire's opener?
March 26 2009, 1:37 PM
Great post, Stu. You've put things in perspective quite nicely.
Its great to have so much depth (at least on the batting side of things), since injuries and even possible test call ups can quickly decimate a side. Its hard to believe that the results aren't going to be better this season.
In the immediate future we will always have a problem squeezing Gale and Lyth into the same team. Both are competing for the number 5 slot.
Mags and Ruldoph are our best bats by some distance and a shoo-in for positions 3 and 4 in all forms of cricket. Vaughan is left with one of the opening slots. Last season Gale was unlucky to end up opening after starting the season very well at 5. I suspect the coaches rate Lyth ahead of Gale meaning he'll get first go at 5 with ultimately Gale dropping out to accomodate Sayers. We all probbaly feel Sayers is a more natural opener but it'd hard not to have some sympathy with Gale.
Re: Is Sayers ready to resume his career as Yorkshire's opener?
March 26 2009, 2:00 PM
I wonder if we are in danger of losing one of Gale and Lyth to another county if they are benched this season.
No doubt there is a reasonable chance we are hit with injuries or Vaughan plays himself into the England side, but would there be merit in having a rotational situation at number 5.
We will need both Gale and Lyth once Mags and Vaughan retire and its important we hold onto them. I guess Moxon will do his utmost to give them both games.
If we go with 6 batsmen it will be a shame to see Patto, Shahzad and Wainwright not getting first team games. But with the bowlers being old (Kruis, Hoggard) and injury prone (Naved) there seems a good chance the young quicks will get a chance.
Pyrah and Hodgson look like only getting a look in during 1 day games.
I wonder if we face an exodus of young players next year if we can't accommodate them all. We've already lost Wood.
Kruis and Naved will be gone next year but unless Vaughan retires I don't see a solution to our batting log jam.
It would be a shame to lose Gale, Taylor and Pyrah to other counties a year or two before Mags and Vaughan retire and Rudi gets picked for SA. If that happened we'd be in a hole again.
Not sure what to make of some of the posts above as you all appear to look on the black side of things as a result of Sayers return to form.
What would you have preferred? Sayers to continue to fail and be consigned to the scrap heap at the end of the season?
Competition for places is just what we need - at the moment Gale is the one who has shown no early season form so should rightly start in the seconds until he succeeds or others in the firsts fail (or get injured, retire or picked by England).
To talk about players leaving just because they are not in the first team is silly in my view. If they were good enough, getting runs or wickets then they would be in the first team but mediocre or average performances won't be of any use to us staying in Div 1 or challenging for the title.
Rather than looking at Gale, Lyth, Pyrah etc thinking about leaving what about the opposite scenario? Hoggard, Vaughan win England recalls, Rashid called up for England games, then we have room for all of Lyth, Gale and Pyrah if need be. And then in a few years time we have the risk of Mags retiring, MV retiring if he does not get back in the Test team, Rudolph not being eligible other than as overseas player. If I was Lyth and Gale I would be staying put and trying to score a load of runs.
Wood leaving is not really a fair example to quote as wicketkeeper is such a specialist position that chances are limited as there is only one keeper in the team. Wood presumably felt he was 4th in the queue behind Brophy, Guy, and Bairstow and therefore now was a good time to go elsewhere. Of course, Guy may go at the end of this season and I hope Bairstow is challenging Brophy next season for the first team slot but I think Wood has made the right decision for him if he is serious about a first class career.
Re: Is Sayers ready to resume his career as Yorkshire's opener?
March 26 2009, 3:02 PM
Good post TC .. its amazing how quicky this thread has gone from Joe doing well to Gale leaving. I do hope Sayers has returned to form. Vaughan will either be back to England (if his form returns) or off to Sky if it doesn't (yes I'm cynical) so we can include both Lyth & Gale (btw Lyth has an extra string to his bow in that he's a brilliant fielder) ... but then what happens over Taylor ? (sorry couldn't resist that one).
Also if Rashid doesn't get picked for England what will happen to 'Aunty' Wainwright & Rafeeq? In 2007 Aunty was one of our 1 day stars but hardly got a look in during 2007.
Re: Is Sayers ready to resume his career as Yorkshire's opener?
March 26 2009, 4:03 PM
I don't think it's a question of optimism vs pessimism.
It simply a case of how Yorkshire will respond to certain scenarios. Having an abundance of young players demanding inclusion in the first team is a boon to the club but it does create a challenge which needs to be managed skilfully.
We were able to attract Taylor from Derbyshire because he didn't feel he had enough opportunities there and we also nicked Ballance. Without the transfer system of soccer or the trading draft picks of American sports departing players in cricket provide no compensation (e.g Broad).
So we do need to think carefully about how we can retain the young players we have invested so much in for the future. Moxon and co need to keep one eye on the future, its not just about this season and hoping next year takes care of itself.
But it goes without saying that having so many young players competing for the 11 first team places is an overwhelming positive.
I'm quite astonished by the idea that we might want to drop Andrew Gale, who was the second most effective batsman last season after Jacques Rudolph, in order to accommodate a man who has had one good game in a friendly. Does this mean we should also drop Matthew Hoggard and replace him with James Lee?
From memory, Gale averaged around the 40 mark last season, scoring three centuries. We all recognized that moving him up to open didn't do him any favours, but even then he ended with impressive figures.
I'm pleased that Sayers did well in the ProArch. Personally, I think it puts him back in the picture, but not in the team. I'd open with Vaughan and Lyth and, if someone has a poor trot, Sayers should then get his chance.
I expect Gale would certainly feel hard done by should he be left out.
After getting their careers on the move last season and solidifying their positions in the team it could be damaging for the progress of Gale and Lyth if one was to be dumped back into the 2nds.
Gale proved to be an effective Division 1 batsman last season, he's England qualified, he's versatile (can open) and has his best years ahead of him. He knows he could start for a number of other counties.
Personally, I wonder if Vaughan offers us the least over the next 5 seasons as a whole. I might make him the backup. Understandably a player of his talents and achievements sees county cricket as a backup to England and with his availability in question due to said England duties there would be less disruption if he started the season on the bench.
Sayers has to start the season playing both forms of the game. If he's learn't the ability to put away the bad ball and still keep out the good one then that will be enough for one day games early season and he just needs to play the same in the four day game. The lads got talent, he just needs to learn how to keep a scoreboard ticking. We don't need it rocking, just ticking. He'll come good this season because his game is solid, just needs to be told to play each ball on it's merit and if it's bad to pespatch it accordingly.
It looks like 2 from 3 for the openers berth with Vaughan and No 5 in the order behind Mags and Rudy.
Neither Gale or Lyth want to open (but I bet if it meant that was the only way they would get a game then they would do so!).
Vaughan at 3 may be right for England but lets face it a number 3 has to have the ability to open as he may be out in the middle in the first over anyway. This applies to Yorkshire based on last season more than anywhere.
Rudy at 5 is a waste of our best batsman as some games he would be batting with the tail and therefore not maximising the runs we can get out of him.
Therefore, whilst he may not like it, Vaughan has to open for Yorkshire which I don't think really affects his test return one bit.
Gale may have had a good season last year and he may have been forced to open out of necessity but he has also just had 3 failures in the Pro Arch trophy. Whilst Sayers appears to have worked at his game over the winter has Gale done likewise?
None of the 3 of them offer any real bowling options but Lyth is the stand out fielder which may count for something. All are left handers so complement Vaughan nicely as well. Gale and Lyth may be marginally ahead in the one day team selection but Sayers seems to have thrown his hat in the ring in this regard now as well. Sayers offers captaincy material in the longer term to his advantage.
So its not an easy decision but i think you have to reward current form and for me Gale is the one who will start the season in the seconds.
However, he is only one broken finger, one Test recall or one dodgy decision away from a recall and I am confident he will be eager and ready to take his chance when it comes.
Sadly, Taylor has never really impressed me in either of his spells at Yorkshire and was a strange re-signing in my view. Ballance and Bairstow would offer better longer term bets for me of the second string.
I don't see why we can't fit Lyth and Gale in to the team. In my opinion Gale and Lyth should end up plalying for England along with Rashid and Rafeq. McGrath and Vaughan and Hoggard will retire within 3 seasons.
We have strenght in depth for the first time in many seasons and we season to have alot of youth coming though.
I think we need to get rid of Kruis as he is to old and may get played over are youth like Shazard and Patterson who is great. Blain is great back up and better that Kruis. Lewis Guy should also go because he is 30 and is only half decent. Craig White still has some talent and i would play him because he has a great affect on the team. Chris Taylor is good but i can't see him getting a game so i think he will go.
I think if we can get our openers to start getting a partnership we may be able to fight for the title this year. In 5 year if we keep all our youth we will be unbeatable.
The Team in my opinion.
Sayers, Rudolph, Vaughen, McGrath, Gale, Lyth, Bresnan, Hogdson, Rashid, Rana and Hoggard.
I know this may seem stupid not having a proven wicket keeper but when Sayers started his career he played as wicket keeper and if he was wicket keeper it would free up another place for a batsman or bowler. I would also rotate Lyth and White to get some experinence into the squad.
I think Sayers has a big enough job on with the bat this season without throwing the keepers gloves at him as well. And Rudolph as the best batsman has to bat four, we don't want to waste him by trying to make him something he's not.
My XI for the first game:
Greg Wood would be played over Sayers but i would give sayers a try. With another batting or bowling spot avalible and then we could bat both Gale and Lyth.
My Team
Sayers, Rudolph, McGrath, Vaughan, Lyth, Gale, Rashid, Bresnan, Naved, Hoggy and Rafiq (Rafiq is a start for the future and we could bowl to spinners. I think it would work.)
I've seen much stranger suggestions than that on this forum. I remember someone once suggesting that Kevin Pietersen should be captain of England! I know - hard to fathom it now....
Joshing aside. Occasionally it's quite good to think out of the box. I didn't know Sayers ever did keep wicket. If he's good enough, and was prepared to do it (which i admit is probably unlikely), it would certainly strengthen our side enormously - giving us the option to play Gale AND Lyth - or include another all rounder like Pyrah, or even go with three seamers and two spinners. I worry very much about Wainwright getting enough opportunities in the Championship - unless Rashid is off carrying drinks for England all Summer.
A word of caution young Fletch - assuming you are young - is that very few keepers manage to open the batting on a regular basis. Stewart is the only one that springs to my mind (although others will surely correct me..) - it's very hard to keep wicket for a couple of days and then go out and open the batting without any sort of a break.
i think I am on your wavelength dpressed unless perhaps you are insinuating that the new WRF poster is Joe Sayers in disguise coming up with suggestions of him keeping wicket to get a place in the team
i think an opening partnership of gale and Lyth is most unlikely as neither really wants to open the innings. It also pushes Mags down to 4 and Rudy to 5 which won't happen either as 5 is too low for your best batsman in the team with the risk of our middle order being blown away on some days and leaving Rudy high and dry at the non-strikers end.
Vaughan has to open - we need his experience with one of the others from Gale, Sayers and Lyth plus its the classic right/left combo whichever of the 3 opens with MV
Rudolph, as the best batsman must bat at four. Batting him at five is a waste. A case perhaps for McGrath to go in at five but I'd rather have him at three.
If Vaughan is a success then he'll be off to England duty without a care for Yorkshire. If he's a failure he'll be off to the commentry box without a care for Yorkshire. He could do us a good job as a senior pro early season but we have to bat him where we need him and that may be not where he would like to bat.
Vaughan and Sayers to open for me with Lyth at five and Gale ready to step in when Vaughan begins either watching or playing for England.
There is nothing more irritating than the perpetual cynical sniping against Vaughan. I don't know what more he needs to say or do to convince the club's so-called supporters. It got to the laughable position last year where those people who were always cricticising him for NOT playing for Yorkshire began to criticise him for NOT standing down.
Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Of course he's ambitious to regain his England place - I'd be disappointed if ANY English qualified player didn't want to represent his country - particularly in an Ashes season. But on every occasion over the Winter and before, he's expressed his desire to play for Yorkshire for as long as he still feels he can contribute. Unlike some other players in the past, I can see no reason to doubt his sincerity or honesty.
I look forward to seeing him batting at three for Yorkshire behind Joe and Gale, with Rudi and Mags to follow. That loks like our ideal batting line up to me...
Hope you don't think I was being synical, Steve. I was being realist and if you think Vaughan will continue for the next two years making pretty but unimportant twenties and thirties you are in denial. If Vaughan hits form and gets his England place back then we'll never see him. If he hits form but doesn't get his place back we might get an extra month out of him. If he doesn't find form then he could well be gone by the end of june.
He should open, least selfish place to be. It wouldn't do his England place any harm either. Number three is but one ball from number one.
Yes I get at Vaughan Steve .... but that's because of what's happened in the past .... e.g. Vaughan spent a week 'practicing' rather than playing for Yorks & I wont forget a day knock out game that Virgil was using 'as a net'. There's a difference between wanting to play four your country & only caring about England ... sorry but too often Vaughan has been the latter .... funnily enough I did once defend Mr V when he played the 'anchor role' in a 1 day game that Yorks lost .... it WAS the other batsmen who should have been pushing for the runs.
I tend to stick up for Hoggard on here because its nomrally obvious that he's trying for us ... even if the wickets dont come.
I like Vaughan as an individual (my uni housemate is his brother in law) and he has been a fabulous England player and captain.
But apart from technically representing Yorkshire across the world whilst with England what has he done on the pitch for us in the past 5 years?
When he's played he's underperformed. I can like the guy as an England player but still roll my eyes when my club team have to rearrange its batting line up to accommodate him on the merit of his England status rather than his performance.
Rudolph is out best batsmen, right now he's a better county batsmen than Vaughan without doubt and has proved this over the past two years. He is the nearest thing to Boof, since Boof. Playing him at 5 would hurt Yorkshire.
Vaughan has opened for most of his career and that is where we are struggling. Cricket is a team sport and he should open as that would be beneficial to his team. Gale and Lyth would be much better suited to playing at 5, yet it seems they will be thrown into the fire at opener so that Vaughan has a better shot at regaining his England spot.
This is a really excellent thread. Its no wonder I log on to this site every day. But one way or the other, we have to hope that both Vaughan and Sayers prosper in 2009.
In my opinion. we are only a good opening combination away from being serious Championship contenders. Certainly, it would be better for the club if Vaughan opened, but even if he goes in third and gets runs, it will be a significant factor in our 2009 aspirations.
I love the assumption you're all amking that Vaughan has refused to open because he wants to bat at 3 to stake a claim for an England place. We have no evidence for this whatsoever, I suspect that Michael will bat wherever Martyn asks him in the best interests of the team. Personally I think that Gale is an excellent opener because he gives the innings an early momentum and takes pressure off Sayers who sometimes finds it difficult to keep the score board moving. Vaughan at three can deal with the new ball if necessary or take advantage of a good start as appropriate. He has more flexibillity in that position than anyone else..
Sorry Steve I don't agree, Vaughan at 3 will unbalance the team, most people feel Lyth and Gale are better suited to batting in the middle order and we would be pushing Rudolph down too low at 5.
Roll on the real stuff starting and we can stop all this speculation.
Mags and Rudolph are our best (?), certainly most consistant and available players, so we have build the order around them. They must bat 3 and 4.
This leaves the opening slots and number 5. For my money, Lyth is potentially very good, needs a season where he's not messed about and therefore goes in at 5. Sayers is the most natural opener therefore he opens. Of the remaining players Vaughan gets my vote to open with Sayers.
Gale is unlucky to miss out at the start of the season. However with injuries and England call ups he'll get lots of cricket.
I can see why Steve likes Gale up front to get things moving, however I feel his weakness is shot selection and that can be badly exposed when you're first up.