Probable England squad: AJ Strauss (capt), AN Cook, RS Bopara, IR Bell, PD Collingwood, MJ Prior (wkt), A Flintoff, SCJ Broad, GP Swann, JM Anderson, G Onions, SJ Harmison, MS Panesar.
This message has been edited by AlexRoberts on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 PM
Clearly the best English batsman (by a country mile) is Trescothick. I know he won't tour abroad for health reasons, but isn't there an argument for asking him to play in the last three Tests as opener and dropping Strauss down to Number 3?
For once we don't need to take a long term stategic view - it's all about the next three games. I wonder how Vaughan felt when he heard about KP's injury...
Very stupid,I'm afraid Steve.
Tres has been asked many many times to reconsider his descision and has always made it perfectly clear he has absolutely no intention of doing so.
In addition it would be a great mistake to even bring further pressure on the guy by asking him.
His problems have been well documented,and thankfully he has recovered sufficiently to play his cricket happily and contentedly .
Your idea would be damaging,without success and totally unneccesary.
Vaughan was a million miles from re-selection which is the main reason he quit when he did.
There's more chance of Shane Warne returning at The Oval,if Australia are in danger of relinquishing the Ashes,the idea has been mooted.
England are actually one up with three to play against a dispirited and disorganised side,confidence remains high and certainly not the time for panic moves.
Andrew Strauss (capt), Alastair Cook, Ravi Bopara, Ian Bell, Paul Collingwood, Matthew Prior (wkt), Andrew Flintoff, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Graham Onions, Stephen Harmison, Monty Panesar
I should have known that I could rely on you to answer my hypothetical question.
Your cricketing points are well made. I do think however that a limited three match run might have appealed to Marcus - and he would certainly have brought more to the team than Ian Bell. Vaughan was a long way from selection - but he would have had another 3 or 4 County matches in which to recover some elusive form.
and if we had persevered with Vaughan would we have drawn the last game thanks to innings by Gale and Bairstow, one of whom would presumably have been omitted v Durham?
We could play that game forever - perhaps we would have scored more runs in the first innings with a Michael Vaughan century and not found ourselves in such a predicament...
well the one plus about Bell being with England is that he is not with Warwickshire who are now our main rivals for the 2nd relegation spot so this weakens their batting line up.
But Steve,your question wasn't hypothetical at all,but plain for all to read and reproduced below.Steve C
(no login) Am I being stupid?
I gave you my answer,no need to be facetious,and just to expand on why I think you were being stupid and apparently continue to be so is that you advocate Andrew Strauss who scored 161 in the Lord's Test and actually set up the first England win there against The Aussies for 75 years,should not open the batting at all for the rest of the series ,but the opening partnership should be broken up and Strauss demoted to number three,ridiculous.
Further more you advocate Tres's inclusion rather than Bell's for ALL three of the next Tests,even if he got a pair at Edgbaston presumably.
Try not to dig yourself any deeper into that big hole than you have already dug for yourself Steve,I don't want to have to speak to you again.
Incidentally you speak much sense about Rana -Ul -Naved and I,m forced to agree with you in his case.
I agree with you that Trescothick is by far the best opening batsman, but I think another fine English qualified batsman is Mark Ramprakash. I believe he should have played much more test cricket than 52 tests - he has not appeared at test level since 2002. Like all players he was prone to lean spells, but he has matured and has done amazingly well in his latter FCC years. He has always been a technically correct and stylish batsman, reminding me of Peter May, Tom Graveney and even our own Doug Padgett (and of course, Sachin Tendulkar!).
Sorrt Alibor but last year showed why Ramprakash hasn't played test cricket for years. Mark scored heavily in the championship until the 99th century was completed. It then took a number of weeks before Mark got to Headingley .... & even then it was only because the match was dead that his 100th Century was compelted.
Ramps is an excelent county batsman but doesn't have the 'bottle' for the international game ... I've a fear that Shah suffers from the same problem
Dpressed excels himself once more by critiscising Mark Ramprakash,the most prolific and highest averaging county cricketer in history,and the scorer of over one hundred first-class centuries.
The facts are well known that after scoring his 99th century last year,the pressures and constant media attention,plus the fact he was not fully fit and had major problems with bats ,breaking three in that period did affect his form,that he went half a dozen matches before completing that hundreth at Headingley,swiftly followed by two more, and others this season.
His problems with temprement are well documented as are his run -ins with authority,however the fact remains his Test average against Australia is in excess of any of those currently playing,and if it were not for the awful and disrespectful manner in which he was treated by the selectors a few years ago,when all knew he should be selected ,he would be a fixture in the side now.
If you did not allow blind predujice to affect all your opinions Dpressed,you may be worth listening too,in the meantime do not expect anyone to take your views seriously.
Ramps is a lot more than an excellent county batsman Dpressed,one look at his stats will show you he's the best ever,and plenty of bottle too,as has Owais Shah who has also been treated shabbily by selectors,and dispensed with after a couple of failures.
You,ve hardly ever seen either of them play Dpressed,where I know both their games inside out having watched them both regularly since they were at school,and be assured my admiration of them both owes nothing to Middlesex bias,but judgement and appeciation gained over many years.
This message has been edited by Cleasby on Jul 28, 2009 7:33 PM
Cleasby "If you did not allow blind predujice to affect all your opinions Dpressed,you may be worth listening too,in the meantime do not expect anyone to take your views seriously."
As usual our Middlesex representitive misreads what I said to cause trouble. IF he had actually read ALL of my post he would have noticed that I pointed out that Ramprakash was a very good county player when the pressure wans't on. His 'problems' in getting from 99 to 100 centuries again showed someone who couldn't cope once the pressure was on ... this vuew was noted by many in 2008.
btw Ramprakash played 52 tests but only averaged 27.32 ... which is very poor for someone who's supposed to be a top class batsman.
As for not seeing Ramps .... I was there for his debut (vs Yorks at Lords in 1987), his first centuary (vs Yorks in 1989 at Headingley) and his 100th ton last year.
Could I request the Cleasby/Femder or whatever he calls himself stop insulting other people then moaning to admin when people answer.
This post will probably disappear in a few hours so I suggest people read it before its too late
This message has been edited by dpressed on Jul 28, 2009 10:55 PM
just to avoid the accusations that Yorkshire fans have 'disrespect' for any English batsman connected with Middlesex you could throw the name Graham Hick into the mix as well.
Another exceptional talent at the county level but sadly was unable to transfer this consistently to the Test arena.
Test cricket is more about mental strength than flair and Hick, Ramps and Shah have all been found wanting at the top level due to the bigger occasion and the added pressure.
Others like Vaughan and Collingwood seem to adapt naturally to the bigger stage and raise their games.
I am sure there are many Yorkshire fans who have seen world-beaters at schoolboy, youth and second team cricket (Rashid and Bresnan now, Jarvis, Dawson, Silverwood etc before that) but they failed to make the transition to the top level. Some are found to be out of their depth, some pushed too soon and some lack mental strength to handle the higher level.
Wrong again Dpressed.I read exactly what you said,and you called Ramps an excellent county player,not ''very good''as you now misquote yourself.
I merely pointed out that a career batting average of almost 58 in county cricket is better than any other England qualified player ever in the history of the game who has played for a comparable time,and an average of 75 in the nine years he's been at Surrey is by far the highest achieved for any county ever.
A test average of 42.40 against Australia is superior to that of Strauus,Cook,Bell,Bopara, and Flintoff currently playing in this series,and a run less than Collingwood's.
His 100th century at Headingley last year was not scored in a ''dead''match but on the last day when Surrey were facing an innings defeat and his innings helped save the match for his county,and I explained to you in detail the reasons he went a whole six matches before completing that mileastone.
And just to confirm what I said you,ve seen him on three ocassions in twenty three years,and base your opinion on that,whilst I've seen him about 200 times and together with many others regard him as the most accomplished batsman produced by England since beore the last year,and I acknowledge that he should have done better at International level,and would have done with better handling.By your comments I presume you've never ever seen Owais Shah play at all.
I've not insulted you mate,it's myself as per usual who is subjeted to insults,just pointed out some facts which you choose to ignore.
I realise being shot down in flames each time your opinions are proven to have little basis in fact must be annoying,but do realise Dpressed that the fault lies with you rather than myself or any other detractors who decide to correct you.
This message has been edited by Cleasby on Jul 29, 2009 4:44 PM This message has been edited by Cleasby on Jul 29, 2009 1:03 PM This message has been edited by Cleasby on Jul 29, 2009 12:55 PM
the beauty of Sky is that you don't have to be at the ground to see county games or cricketers in the flesh so only seeing Ramps 3 times in the flesh when he plays at Headingley may sound minimal but then he probably appears on TV around 6 times a season (other than Dancing).
With internet coverage, some decent press comment on the county game just about still evident then even those not stalking Ramps throughout his whole career down south have had the chance to see how he progresses and plays.
To blame how he has been handled by the England management is over the top as the bulk of Ramps problems are how he handles himself rather than how he is treated by management - run ins last season with the opposition, sky cameramen and leaving Middlesex all give some indication.
Then we could explore how many of his recent runs are in Division 2 of the CC against the weaker opposition if we are going to go down the statistical route.
The bottom line is good county players don't automatically transfer performances to the test stage and the skill of people like Fletcher in particular was spotting who had the ability, temperament, work ethic and team approach to succeed at the higher level. Trescothick, Vaughan, Collingwood all fall into this category and sadly Hick, Ramps, Shah and even Harmison do not.
Its an old argument - go back further and you could challenge why Close and Trueman did not play more times for England as they had the temperament and ability for the big match occasion but their problem was playing for a northern county and being prepared to speak their minds!
Conditions are not good at present,and with more heavy rain forecast for tonight,it seems unlikely any play will be possible tomorrow.
However with provisions in the playing conditions for time to be added on subsequent days and an improved forecast for Friday and Saturday,it's far too early to write off the match as a sure draw.
Australia will of course be anxious for a win,and whilst England will be more cautious in their approach,I am optimistic this match can match the previous two for excitement and entertainment value.
Egland almost certainly to go with the same side as at Lords,whilst depending on the start time I'd expect Australia make at least at least one change.
As usual Cleasby (or whatever he calls himeself) takes things out of context to cause trouble ...I mention 3 'significant' innings so he claims I've only he Ramps bat 3 times .... a typical WUM tatic
BUT this still doesn't get over the fact that Ramprakash has played 52 tests during which had has 92 innings ... yet only scored 2 (yes TWO) test centuries. If Ramps had been from a northern county he would have been dropped far more quickly.
As for saving an innings defeat last year ... yes there was an outside chance it could happen ... but that would have required Yorks to bowl S(l)urrey our for under 250 in a day ... after over a day had already been lost ... on a pitch that was improving ... on a great day for batting. Most people expected a bore draw .... many staying away for that reason.
Congratulations TC,for spotting the deliberate mistake,you are todays winner of the spot prize,whilst my friend Dpressed is so obsessed with proving what a limited individual my other good friend Ramps is,that he missed it.
I could spend some more time listing all the brilliant innings played by Ramps in adverse situations,you dont score 106 first -class hundreds by being a ''bottler''which is the insulting description ,which mainly led me to take him to task TC,or his much improved Test average over the latter part of his career,and how his form at county level, since he's been disregarded by the selectors is phenomenal and has more than justified his re-selection since,but why bother,I agree it's booring and boorish,and an arguement I,ve had many times with many others.
Too many however are in agreement with me,to take notice of Dpressed's biased assesment,which he confirms for me out of his own mouth.I quote ''If Ramps had been from a northern county he would have been dropped far more quickly.''
Nuff said,Dpressed,this is going nowhere.
This message has been edited by Cleasby on Jul 29, 2009 5:40 PM
Edgbaston is, I think, the UK test ground with the nearest pedalos. They can be hired in Cannon Hill Park, a mere 50 yards from the main entrance. Fortunately, the Midland Arts Centre bar in the same park is currently closed for refurbishment.
Thanks to Brian for the best laugh of the day & to Dews for the info ... worth knowing if the weather is bad.
And most posters will know that I'm not into belitling other people on here even if I don't agree with them ... I leave that to our Middlesex correspondant & then respond in kind
This message has been edited by dpressed on Jul 29, 2009 10:51 PM This message has been edited by dpressed on Jul 29, 2009 10:38 PM
On the weather front, t'sun's positively crackin' t'flags at t'moment here in the Mid Lands (about 2 miles from Edgbaston). On the other hand, I'm about to walk to my allotment, so it should begin to "sile dahn" (rain heavily) in about twenty minutes.
Can I suggest Scarborough? The peddaloes at peasholm Park could surely be brought into use.
Great word peddalo - even if - like me - one can never be entirely sure of the correct spelling.
If we're discussing weather, it's worth mentioning that the NW Monsoon season is in full effect. I can see no chance of the 20/20 taking place today - and anyone intending to drive across the Pennines tomorrow may need to consider alternative plans for the early part of the day at least...
"Pedalo" being a French word (pédalo) - formed from pédale on the same basis as other popular abbreviations such as le mécano (a mechanic) - I assume the French plural applies. Hence pedalos rather than pedaloes. But it probably depends whether you were at Eton or Harrow, as my dad (Eastborough C of E Junior and Central School, Dewsbury) used to say. Oddly, the Italians take the accent off the e and stick one on the o - pedalň - though the pronunciation ends up being quite close to the French. The Germans save themselves all this trouble by calling it a Tretboot (literally: tread boat), which has a certain rustic charm.
Sorry about my duff weather forecast. It didn't actually rain until we'd been at the allotment for a quarter of an hour, whereas it usually rains as soon as we get there. Right now a hail shower's just coming to an end.
Does a Gemanic pedalo come equipped with torpedoes and a periscope?
No cricket today.
May i remind regular correspondents of my earlier metereological prediction which was so rigorusly dismissed earlier in the week...
I know there has been a lot of rain this week and the groundsman has done a fantastic job overnight to make the field look as good as it does but we have spent most of the morning with the sun shining and sat staring at an empty field (I know there was also a shower at one stage).
In the 21st century should there not have been a way devised to cover the full pitch rather than just the square? Twenty odd years ago we had the so-called ''Brumbrella'' and since then technology on the subject has gone backwards instead of forward. I believe the Brumbrella was removed because it took some eight minutes to put down but if it had been put down monday and a few removals to air the pitch etc then we might be sitting watching cricket now.
All the modern drainage systems in the world are okay but if you roofed the pitch or at least fully covered it, it would be far more effective.
I think the Brumbrella was removed because of repeated mechanical failure. The thing would jam like a massive photocopier. One time it got irremediably stuck half way through the process and, though my memory's a bit hazy on this, I'm pretty sure a county game was abandoned as a result. There were also problems about the pitch "sweating" under the total covers.
I played somewhere a few years ago where the old plastic covers from the Brumbrella were still being used as ordinary tarpaulin-type covers for the outfield. I think it may have been Bedworth or Atherstone.
The only pefect solution is of course a retractable roof ,similar to Wembley and Wimbledon,and at over thirty major sporting venues throughout the world.
The technology is there,although the cost might be prohibitive,and opposition at traditional venues may be a problem too.
However,it will come and be a huge boost to know whatever the weather outside ,one can go along fully confident of seeing a full day's play,unless the roof get's stuck halfway of course!!
How much would a giant tent or hot air balloon type thingy big enough to cover an entire test ground cost? I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of something like this. It could have been at Edgbaston all this week and then monday evening shipped up the M1 to Headingley if the cost was so great that only one could be afforded. Raised in the middle, Wimbledon tennis type, the pitch could then breath and the pitch even be worked upon should it need to be.
There's not a sport in the world that relies on the weather so much and yet does so little to protect itself from it.
A retractable roof would be the ideal answer but at some of our mismatch stands at test grounds it would be very difficult to build, plus, it's taken Lord's years to be allowed to put a few lights up, imagine the fuss a roof would make!
Australia have played at the Telstra Dome in Melbourne under a roof and it seems to work okay but I think my hot air balloon is as good as we'll get for many a long year.
Wembley doesn't actually have a fully covered roof, it's the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff that has that.
Well Kenny,it was only a few years ago that everyone thought floodlights at Lord's would never happen,but a few sweeteners to the locals soon changed that.
The same could happen with the roof when people realise the financial advantages,and keeping out the noise of Pop Concerts and similar events might encourage The MCC to consider the possibilty,money of course being absolutely no object to them.
Sorry for failing to mention The Millenium Stadium.
At root cricket is essentially a rural pastime, played by our pre-industrial and non-urbanised forebears from time immemorial for their own delectation and the entertainment of their communities.
True perhaps, a few bob occasionally changed hands, but no external empire made undue profits from the activity. It remained a thing of joy, which could take one away from the grind of the factory system, the clock and the "box of tricks". Indeed, it could do so, to such an extent that George Hurst, charged with control of the mill-whistle, would deliberately mis-count the hours in order to vouchsafe greater opportunity for play.
It is the appeal to this cultural genesis and nostalgic sympathy, which secures cricket's continuing attraction and popularity in a world of rootless target pursuit. It is the timelessness of cricket which, T20 forbid, invites the attention of the heart and mind.
Paradoxically, therefore, the progressive efforts of the marketing gurus, to make allies with the latest technolgical capabilities in order to "popularise the game", "increase the market-share" and thereby increase the sale of the cricketing product, takes the game further and furher away from its essence and from its anthropogolical significance.
Beware the "credit crunch!"
Inflation, even cricketing inflation, undermines social and economic well-being, and ultimately, destroys life.
The joy of cricket is to be found in the quality of the contest between bat and ball. It has little or nothing to do with floodlit play, "hawk-eye" or television replay.
In the end, the umpire's mistake is matched by that of the other, "And God fulfils Himself in many ways, lest one good custom should corrupt the world".
"The red rose cries, "She is near, she is near';
And the white rose weeps, 'She is late'".
I hate to sound like Fred in his latter days of TMS but I do sometimes wonder what's going off out there. Obvious for all to see that the ball is pitched too short and yet it continually is with the run rate up at nearly five per over. Spin introduced as almost a last resort to stem the tide, it does more than that and takes a wicket and is then immediately replaced by more short of a length dross.
Do the players not see what we see or has the pitch stretched in the rain and is 24 yards long?
I think the Mags fag packet must have been blown away and picked up by Strauss and Warney alluded as much in the commentary box.
Open with 2 seamers and then replace simultaneously with next 2 seamers and then belatedly turn to a spinner who lo and behold gets a wicket but is then removed from the attack.
All the seamers failed to make the batsmen play at enough balls - what should have been a tricky 2 hour session was made to look easy by the bowlers bowling too short or too wide and then serving up too many 4 balls.
Long leg and deep square leg on the first session of a test match? Watson was made to look far more competent as an opener than he should have done.
Lets hope today shows more imaginative captaincy and better thinking about strategy beforehand. The same tricks don't work all the time on different grounds, different conditions and different stages of the game.
Hurst? I didn't know Geoff played cricket.
What is it with field placings these days - why do they always start with a deep square leg? It's almost as if they're accepting that there will be bad balls. The batsman are getting far too many easy runs...
This message has been edited by stevecowton on Jul 31, 2009 9:17 AM
2 hours of dross bowling last night by England when the old adage of line and length seemed to be an alient concept to the bowlers and then today from ball 1 we seem to have pitched it up, got it to swing and made them play at balls they could no longer afford to leave alone.
What a difference a day makes. Pitch it up, the ball starts moving around and wickets start to fall. Let's just hope the hundred plus runs we gifted them last night don't prove crucial.
Good decision by Strauss to begin with Onions this morning, obviously had a dream lastnight. Thought he left Flintoff on a bit too long and then why, after such a morning would Broad be given the ball straight after lunch? Trying to buy him a cheap wicket in an ashes contest shouldn't be an option.
Hurst? I didn't know Geoff played cricket.
stGeoff Hurst RSS Feed
England
Full name Sir Geoffrey Charles Hurst
Born December 8, 1941, Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancashire
Current age 67 years 235 days
Major teams Essex
Batting style Right-hand bat
Fielding position Wicketkeeper
Batting | Bowling | Career statistics | Profile | Notes
Batting and fielding averages
Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
First-class 1 2 1 0 0* 0.00 0 0 0 0 1 0
Bowling averages
Mat Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4w 5w 10
First-class 1 - - - - - - - - - - -
Career statistics
First-class span 1962 - 1962
Profile
Geoff Hurst, famously the only footballer to score at hat-trick in a World Cup final at Wembley in 1966 also played one County Championship game for Essex in 1962. He was an outstanding fielder, and occasional wicket-keeper, however his footballing commitments meant that he was restricted to only one first-class cricket match. He later recalled that the first time he played alongside Bobby Moore was for an Essex school's cricket team.
Martin Williamson
This message has been edited by Cleasby on Jul 31, 2009 8:50 PM