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Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 29 2016, 8:50 AM 

The balls obviously softened up making it easier to bat but credit to Rashid and Woakes for getting us into the lead.

Our long batting line-up and Stoke's reverse swing looks like it will make the difference in this test too.

(Login Lewis_116)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 29 2016, 9:58 AM 

You would expect that Ballance has one innings to save his international career, at least in the immediate future.

I to rate him but think he was a better player before Moores tried to make him a number 3 which seems to have dented his excellent natural attacking play.

It's interesting that in a day of England trying to become this proactive, attacking machine, Gary Ballance seems to be the opitomy of the opposite. We should remember he is/was an outstanding limited overs player a few years ago too.

He is still young but needs to come back to Yorkshire, bat at 4 in all competitions and prove himself as our best batsman and maybe in a few years he can return to England, as they certainly see something they do like.

The benefit of this would be massive to Yorkshire too. At a time where we are lacking batting depth and consistency, having Lyth, Lees and Ballance available all the time and in all competitions provides a spine to work around.

(Login _JG_)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 29 2016, 10:27 AM 

England slightly ahead after two topsy-turvy first innings' but will their arrogance in selection cost them? This is not a warm-up match, it's a full Test match against an improving side in home conditions against whom we only snuck home in the first match, not a time for experimenting with an eye on the India series.

Why is Batty not playing? He was our best- or certainly most reliable- spinner in the last Test. If they are insistent on playing Ansari- which I don't agree with as I think neither his bowling nor batting or remotely near Test standard- then Rashid should have been the one to drop out. It's quite clear that Cook doesn't trust him; yes for Yorkshire he also often bowls to defensive fields and his main role is often cleaning up the tail, but that is when our seam attack has often blown away the top order, whereas in these conditions you need a lot more from your second spinner. Whether it is down to Rashid's evident lack of consistency or Cook's lack of trust is debatable but as a bowler Rashid is not making a good fist of Test cricket. At least he made some runs today- he must be one of the most talented number 10s in Test history...

Similarly, why is Finn playing? He's always been crap in Asian conditions- avg 38 vs career avg 30- and doesn't look in any rhythm here. And then why did he open the bowling when this is such a vital passage of play? Ansari is on too now- do they actually want to win this game?

Ballance also looks totally done, Hameed surely a better option with Duckett moving to 4.

Hopefully I'll be proven wrong later on but the contribution of these three so far is 0-100 in 20 overs and 22 runs between them.

EDIT: that reverse jinxed a wicket out of Ansari at least!

This message has been edited by _JG_ from IP address on Oct 29, 2016 10:34 AM

(Login Dwight_Schrute)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 29 2016, 10:42 AM 

Pretty sure Batty will start against India and maybe this was being used as Ansari/Rashid shootout? Should have played all 3 really, Woakes and Stokes enough to cover the seam department on these pitches.

Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 9:42 AM 

England 100 without loss at tea. Funny old game cricket.

(Login pscotty)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 10:50 AM 

Funny old game indeeed! Now 127-5!

(Login overman8)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 11:16 AM 

Truly impressive performance from young Mehedi great potential, any chance we could borrow him for next season. I can confidently say Ballance won't be called up again for an international in the near future, the lad looks shot but hopefully he can come back stronger for it.

(Login _JG_)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 11:56 AM 

England got what they deserved, Test cricket is not the place for auditions and trials, especially away from home against a massively improved side in conditons in which England struggle. I wouldn't be surprised if we lost 5-0 in India, our spinners and play of spin is just terrible.

(Login StuartRA)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 11:57 AM 

It has solved one of our problems at 3,4,5 & 6. We get Gary back at 5 for next season. Just 3 more slots to fill!!

This message has been edited by StuartRA from IP address on Oct 30, 2016 2:28 PM


(Login dpressed)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 12:11 PM 

We'll have Ballance until he makes a decent score after which England will recall him, even if Gary isn't in form (as happened after Middlesex at Scarborough)

(Login sooty-yorkie1)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 12:33 PM 

If we'd have hung on to all those dropped catches in the morning, we'd have been chasing closer to 200. Still a tricky target to chase though.
I don't think that there was anything too experimentally nor were the players left out head and shoulders above anyone in the team. England teams are and have been poor in spinning conditions this isn't anything new. Mainly because it's rare to find a turning pitch here. Somerset had one this year but it wasn't overly popular so I doubt they'll be many more.

(Login ExileReturns)

Relative merits of the spinners

October 30 2016, 2:06 PM 

The mechanism I use to help me decide the relative merit of spin options is to consider what it would cost for each spinner to dismiss all ten batsman if he were to bowl at one end throughout the innings with consistent outcomes. I realise that this does not take into account that there has to be another bowler at the other end and that this impacts on the innings total. For this and other reasons my method is rather a crude barometer, but I find it useful in comparing performances. It has the merit of taking into account strike rate alongside economy rate.

In the second innings of this test match the three spinners performed thus:

Ali: 19 overs, 2 maidens, 60 runs, 1 wicket, economy rate 3.15, strike rate 19 overs per wicket. Notional innings total 599.
Ansari: 19 overs, 0 maidens, 76 runs, 2 wickets, economy rate 4.00, strike rate 9.5 overs per wicket. Notional innings total 236.
Rashid: 11.5 overs, 1 maiden, 52 runs, 4 wickets, economy rate 4.39, strike rate 2.9 overs per wicket. Notional innings total 178.

For the match as a whole the figures are:

Ali 38.5 overs, 5 maidens, 117 runs, 6 wickets, economy rate 3.04, strike rate 6.47. Notional match total 394.
Ansari 25 overs, o maidens, 112 runs 2 wickets, economy rate 4.48, strike rate 12.5. Notional match total 1120.
Rashid 21.5 overs, 1 maiden 96 runs, 4 wickets, economy rate 4.40, strike rate 5.37. Notional match total 472.

From this it will be seen that "cateris paribus" the opposition would be bowled out for the lowest total were Rashid to be used more and Ansari less.

In other words, number of runs conceded per over is not the only consideration. To win test matches it is necessary to take wickets and the bowler who does this most quickly can be of greater benefit than the one who bowls "most economically".

In fact, Cook chose to bowl Ansari more and Rashid less. It could be argued that the tactics adopted made it easier for Bangladesh to win the match.

(Login EastYorkshireTyke)

Re: Relative merits of the spinners

October 30 2016, 2:45 PM 

The mechanism I use to decide the merits of players is eyesight.
Using this barometer Ali was clearly our best spinner and Rashid bowled a lot of dross and looked a long way short of test class. You can pick 2 out of Rashid, Batty and Ansari in India and I don't honestly think it matters who.

(Login _JG_)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 2:47 PM 

You don't think Broad and Batty (first Test figures of 23-6-43-2 and 34-4-116-4 respectively) are head and shoulders above Finn and Ansari (11-1-48-0 and 25-0-112-2) then? Alongside England's poor batting, the other main factor behind them losing this Test was the fact that they had no bowlers other than Stokes who were able to control the scoring rate when Bangladesh put a partnership together- Tamim and Mominul scored at 4.4 an over in the first innings, while the Bangladesh side as a whole scored at that rate in the second innings- and that was due to Broad and Batty not being included.

Talk of there not being pitches that spin like this in England is just the usual media policy of blaming county cricket for the England team's failings in my opinion; there weren't lots of spinning decks around back when we last toured India and won either, but the players in the side learned to adapt and succeed in those conditions, as those currently in the side need to do now. They have plenty of exposure to these conditions through the Lions, Performance Programme etc tours.


(Login dpressed)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 3:51 PM 

Rashid bowled like he often does for Yorkshire. Yes he bowls some awful balls but he also bowls wicket taking ones. Thankfully Yorkshire have other bowlers who can 'bottle up an end' to allow Adil to do this. As has been said it was only Stokes who appeared to be able to do this. Soaked does a job, but how does Finn get a match?

Idle Man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 5:42 PM 

I'm often in favour of getting Adil on, but to be honest when I get my way, he seldom takes wickets of established higher order batsmen (tailenders are a different matter). This doesn't suggest a test spinner except in the case of the present total dearth of talent.

(Login _JG_)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 5:47 PM 

One more point about the batting: it's not only poor in spinning conditions, it's just generally poor. Root is the only consistent runmaker out of the specialist batsmen with Cook quite inconsistent these days and the rest of the top 5 poor. Like Yorkshire, England have been rescued by runs from Bairstow and the all-rounders but the top 5 have been poor in all conditions for a couple of years now.

Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 9:22 PM 

Very interesting and enjoyable little tour. I wasn't going to take much notice originally, but got hooked during the one dayers.

I'm disappointed England didn't win the series but pleased that they went and don't feel like the loss today was the end of the world. Bangladesh deserve their day in the sun and I'm pleased for their players and supporters.

Looking forward to seeing how Mehedi does in English conditions when they come here next.

From a parochial point of view probably only JB has enhanced his reputation, certainly as a wicket keeper. Hopefully the other three Yorkies will benefit from the experience.

Twelfth Man
(Login twelthman)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 30 2016, 9:36 PM 

The pitches certainly took me by surprise, and made it all the more interesting. I didn't expect to take much interest in the tour either, expecting it to be a grind, played out on feather beds, but saw a bit of the first session of the first Test and got drawn in after that.

Willis as usual went way over the top on Sky, labeling England's failure to walk over an improving Bangladesh side away from home "a disgrace", and seemed reluctant to offer any credit whatsoever to the Bangladeshis.

Saying that, I do fear for England in India. They need a strong batting line up, or an attack that can put pressure India in their conditions to stand a chance, but have neither.

(Login WR_Metcalfe)

Re: Too many Southpaws?

October 31 2016, 9:54 AM 

I have been as interested in these last two test matches as I have been for a long time with England. Must be because Yorkshire aren't playing!

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