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Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 2:22 PM 

You misread my post. Not nailed on at all but just trying to have some consistent selection for more than two games. If they were the best two three weeks ago then why are they suddenly not so now when everyone is playing t20?

And I said replace wood with Woakes or TRJ as we don't know if Woakes fit and a four over spell in t20 won't tell us much either. I'd pick Woakes if fitness proven but it's not by any stretch.

Dawson is different. First the wrong pick from the outset but second it's the wrong shape to the team too.

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 3:00 PM 

I was present days 2 and 3. It struck me that the English attitude was all wrong, our famous arrogance, that idea that we could set the world standard for entertaining and still win. Boycott insists that of the batsmen only Cook and Root are Test class, and this game would seem to support his claim.

If we accept that Bairstow, Stokes and Ali are good enough at 6, 7 and 8, then all we have to do is find people to bat at 2, 3 and 5. Ideally right-handers - answers on a postcard to ECB.

I felt we bowled and fielded perfectly adequately on Sunday, apart from the cynical slowing down of the over-rate by endless faffing around, but our attack looks toothless compared with theirs, Anderson inferior to Philander, Broad to Morkel, Wood to Morris, and Ali/Dawson to Maharaj. Only Stokes, against Olivier, comes out on the credit side.

By contrast, Amla and Du Plessis were prepared to bore everyone to death by blocking their way to a winning position, which they did.

So, our team is inadequate. But there's no point changing it unless we can find better replacements. Who those batsmen are, goodness knows. Woakes has been suggested as a replacement for Wood, but personally I think Wood much the better bowler, if fit - which I'm not convinced he is. Obviously Woakes isn't either, so the question is moot.

Leach for Dawson would be an 'obvious' improvement; Leach as the sole spinner less so as, once again, the selection of bowlers is compromised by the inadequacies of the batsmen. Ali has done okay, in any case, but I do pine for the days of two spinners (neither of which is called Dawson).

Perhaps too early for gloom and doom. It is, after all, only 1-1 in the series. But I do wish we could see less smug complacency from Bayliss, more guts and honesty from the selected - and very well paid - players. The paying public has been robbed in this game, which has ended just as I finish this.

 
 
Brian
(Login NewBrian)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 3:33 PM 

Time for Joe to resign?
Seriously, coach bay leaf's record in Tests is abysmal. He was
hired to shake up our one-day team and that's worked, so maybe Farbrace should look after Tests and he concentrates on the pyjama game.

 
 
Guest
(Login ExiledinNotts)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 4:03 PM 

Just home having done day one & today. Abysmal performance, very disappointing all round. If anyone's at fault then perhaps it's time to point a finger or two at Baylis, after all the buck should stop with him.

 
 
Papag
(Login Papag1)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 4:19 PM 

Well the ECB are in the process of destroying Cricket players as we all knew and loved them to swash buckling one day players where the quick buck is everything , lets hope there is something left to be recovered when it all goes belly up.

 
 
Stu
(Login StuartRA)
Assistant Moderator

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 4:55 PM 

According to the Sky guys, that is 5 losses from the last 6 for England. It`s ok playing "gung-ho swing at everything attacking cricket", but sometimes you have to dig in and grind out a decent score, or bat to save the game.

Bayliss has transformed England`s 1 day cricket and transferred it to test cricket, but the same approach does not work in test matches.


    
This message has been edited by StuartRA on Jul 17, 2017 5:05 PM


 
 
Leg Glance
(Login legglance)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 5:00 PM 

100% agree with the above 2 posts.

RIP The forgotten art of batting to save a Test match


    
This message has been edited by legglance on Jul 17, 2017 5:01 PM


 
 
Twelfth Man
(Login twelthman)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 5:20 PM 

Completely agree re Bayliss. He's clueless about Test cricket. In my opinion the selection debates should be put to one side and the spotlight put on the way England are being coached and how they are batting as a unit. Get them playing properly and treating Test cricket with respect, under a separate Test coach if need be, then look at selection if results don't improve. I would suggest bringing in Stoneman for Dawson, playing him at 3 and moving Ballance down to 5. Selection is inconsequential if they keep batting so recklessly, however.


    
This message has been edited by twelthman on Jul 17, 2017 5:20 PM


 
 
Stu
(Login StuartRA)
Assistant Moderator

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 5:34 PM 

Gary has a suspected broken finger, so even if dropped for the next test, we will not get him back.

How long is it normally for broken fingers? Could it be the rest of the season?

 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 5:35 PM 

Batting line up as a whole has been too aggressive under Bayliss. But i'm not sure we can put Jennings and Ballance's failures down to being reckless.

 
 
East Coast Type
(Login EastCoastType)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 6:02 PM 

'Smug complacency' was exactly my thought, Dave.

About inability to bat defensively, due to work and a young family I hardly saw any cricket between the mid-1990s and about 2012. One of the big changes i noticed when watching regularly again was this aspect of the game. There seemed to have been a change, even taking into account rose-coloured specs.

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 6:14 PM 

The way some of them batted including our own Bairstow sadly you would think they were of the view they could still win it with some of the strokes they got out to.

Admirable or arrogant?

Broad Ali looked as though they were playing an ODI

 
 
54 off 24
(Login 54off24)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 6:40 PM 

Funny how England's woes tend to mirror our own.

Brittle batting line up most of whom appear to be better at the shorter stuff than FC cricket

Aging bowling line up who can still produce good performances most of the time.

A middle order that (historically) has pulled the top order out of the mire but have become a bit hit and miss.

 
 
Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 9:56 PM 

Been away in the wilds today so just picked up the result.

I never thought England would get anywhere near for an instant but I didn't expect them to lose quite so badly.

When you look at England's batting and bowling it's no mystery why all the counties fall over themselves to sign up their quota of overseas batsmen and strike bowlers.

We are in a rebuilding phase with a new Captain, and we need to at least get the balance of the team right as the first priority.

5 proper batsmen please.




 
 
Otley
(Login Otley)

2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 17 2017, 10:10 PM 

I had a similar break from regularly watching County cricket to East Coast Type for similar reasons and, like him, have been struck by the lack of solid defensive technique I have seen in the last 5 years. Yorkshire's demise at Scarborough a few weeks ago was very like England today - the concept of batting to save the game doesn't seem to occur until the last hour or so of the match


    
This message has been edited by Otley on Jul 17, 2017 10:11 PM


 
 
Idle Man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 18 2017, 12:01 AM 

England have 5 'proper batsmen'. Whether they are the right 5 is a different matter. I don't think Bairstow should bat below 5. He's one of the best 5 English batsmen, so why should he? The last wicket-keeper of whom that could be said was Alec Stewart. There's a case for him not keeping; there's no case for him keeping and batting no 7.

Bairstow, Stokes and Ali at 5-7 ought to be pretty good. It's above that that the problem lies.

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 18 2017, 2:16 AM 

I agree with that, Idle Man; Geoffrey Boycott clearly thinks otherwise, but what I didn't hear him say was who he would have bat at 2, 3 and 5 if Jennings, Ballance and Bairstow weren't there.

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 18 2017, 7:01 AM 

Balance has a technique that has worked for him at county level. Why change when playing in tests and risk losing what has got you there? Whether it's good enough at higher level is another thing. But at least with Gary it's technique rather than brains and application that is the issue. It's not necessarily the wrong players but it's the attitude and approach of the players which has to then mean the coaches share the responsibility.

I like the idea of Stoneman replacing Dawson. But if two spinners needed and not sure why if they are not good enough Pugh then it's time to look at Samit agsin

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 18 2017, 8:16 AM 

Brilliant article by George Dobell.

On Bayliss as coach: "But if he doesn't have much say in selection and he doesn't have much say in coaching, it does rather beg the question: what does he do? If he's just creating a relaxed environment, he could be replaced by a couple of scented candles, a yucca plant and a CD of ambient whale noises."

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2017/content/story/1111719.html

 
 
Seadog73
(Login Seadog73)

Re: 2nd Test | England vs South Africa at Trent Bridge (Match Thread)

July 18 2017, 8:53 AM 

Very good indeed. I agree with Dobell's idea of splitting the coaching duties. We'll continue with feast or famine under Bayliss's approach - big win followed by huge loss - but we'll never be consistent.

 
 
 
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