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4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 4 2017 at 1:46 AM

WRF  (Premier Login AlexRoberts)
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Aug 4-8, 2017 - 4th Test at Old Trafford, Manchester

ENGLAND from: TBA
SOUTH AFRICA From: TBA

Live Scorecard
Old Trafford Weather

STATS NOTE: In eight the past nine series England have played, they have lost the final Test eight times occasions.
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Tom
(Login whiterosetom)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 4 2017, 7:22 AM 

Looking at the weather they may have to do well to beat us.

Big game for Jennings and Malan.

 
 

Guest
(Login matthefish2002)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 4 2017, 9:06 AM 

Test Matches come round a bit too quick these days. Last one only finished on Monday.

 
 
Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

Ignoring England

August 4 2017, 10:57 PM 

Interesting days cricket I thought. Spoils were shared about 50/50 I would say but still some problems in the top order for England to deal with.

The bell is tolling for Jennings and if the gets to bat in the 2nd innings it will be in the last chance saloon.

Westley seems more at ease, without actually scoring very many runs. He is clearly in favour with the pundits as he seems to be getting an easy ride at the moment, but that may not last.

Malan also needs a few 2nd time around to prove that a step up is not a step too far.

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 6:21 AM 

The trouble is if they drop Jennings, whoever comes in will probably make runs against the much weaker WI attack. They won't necessarily be a better player. Having said that, I think Stoneman has to have his chance.

 
 
Lew
(Login Lewis116)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 9:04 AM 

You sense Stoneman won't get a chance. They are waiting for Hameed to get a few runs and he will partner Cook.

The only other position is 5. It is quite bizarre why Malan got called up in the first place. I have a feeling Joe Clarke will push on during the second half of the season. Hos County form picked up and his T20 form (granted another format) has been exceptional.

For me, England need to pick a couple of young lads who have the ability and skill for Test match cricket and just stick with them.

Only other position for debate is the third seamer. Good options with TRJ, Woakes, Wood and Tom Curran. A lot of variation and depth in there. Personally want to see ons of the Overtons in the team. Craig has been excellent this year, offering height and pace. He would suit Oz pitches.

Jamie has more pace and looks immense but had a fair few injuries.

Wood has so many injuries and seemed to struggle against South Africa that you wonder if its in everyones best interests if he becomes a OD and T20 specialist.

 
 
Seadog73
(Login Seadog73)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 9:52 AM 

I still think Woakes will come back in once fit - he's the preferred third seamer and a good batsman. Craig Overton might get on the plane to Australia as back up to Stokes and Woakes.

 
 
Seadog73
(Login Seadog73)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 12:37 PM 

Agh! Jonny out for 99, England 362 all out.

 
 
Dewsburian
(Login Dewsburian)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 12:51 PM 

That was a stunning demonstration of batting with the tail, though it was a great pity that players like Moeen and Broad batted like tailenders.
I was puzzled by the lbw decision. The TV diagram seemed to show the ball hitting the pads outside the line of the stumps. If anything, about 1% of the ball could have been in the right area. Is that what's meant in the law by hitting in line with the wickets? Surely the technology isn't accurate to those kinds of levels...

 
 
JG
(Login _JG_)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 1:00 PM 

Gutted for Bairstow but a great innings- and shows the folly of having one of our best batsmen at 7; how Malan bats higher than him and Stokes I do not know. Agree about the LBW decision.

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 1:07 PM 

Crap decision as if that was hitting in line then it was under 1% and enough doubt to be given not out by on field umpire.

He may have an end named after him but his ridiculous reverse sweep to the spinner nearly saw Anderson out a few overs earlier.

But yes the whole batting order is bonkers when one of the best three has to bat with the tail and play t20 innings with number 11

 
 
Dewsburian
(Login Dewsburian)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 1:42 PM 

The idea I find truly hilarious is that Jonny should bat at no. 7 because Gilchrist did. That Australia team had so many world class players in the top 6 that Darren Lehmann couldn't get into it. The England side has four test-class batsmen: Root, Bairstow, Cook and Stokes. It has one "solid citizen" in Westley and a highly talented but "flirty" sort of player in Moeen Ali. Quite what Malan is doing in the team - other than that he looked promising in an ODI - isn't clear (at almost 30 years of age, he can't be the youth policy). In my view, they might as well have picked Hildreth, who has many of the virtues of Westley though is probably well past his best now, or gone back to Vince. But neither should bat ahead of Bairstow or Stokes.
Sky keep showing a chart that indicates Bairstow has a better average at 6 or 7 than at other places in the batting order. I don't know what that is supposed to show. Since he has mostly been picked to bat at 6 or 7 in recent years, it probably just indicates that he is getting better as a test player, which isn't exactly surprising - and is really an argument for moving him UP the order. Or it could just mean that he's had more not-outs through running out of partners.
Someone even suggested that it might be best to leave him at 7 because he's good at batting with the tail. But you get to bat with the tail if you're good enough to stay in. Joe Root often bats with the tail and Jennings could if he were capable of staying in for that long.
Jonny batted very frenetically at Trent Bridge, but then so did the whole team. I think they were probably getting ahead of themselves after a comprehensive win in the first test. To move Jonny back down the batting order after that was both a misreading of the situation and entirely pointless, since he effectively batted at 5 anyway after Jennings and Malan failed to make meaningful contributions.

The DRS thing is more complicated than is currently being understood by most of the commentators. If umpires are willing to give those sorts of decision out, when previously (ie before Hawkeye) they would have given the benefit of the doubt to the batsman, then "umpire's call" has become problematical. Only the most atrocious of umpires would have given that out before the days of DRS. To put it another way, the whole "finely balanced architecture" of DRS requires that umpires behave like human umpires, not cyborgs who think they are second-guessing the technology. In this situation, there is still "doubt" because the technology isn't perfect, but such "benefit of the doubt" as there now is is actually going to the bowlers!

EDIT:
Looking at this again, I see I've possibly just found a more long-winded way to say "Crap decision" and "the whole batting order is bonkers".


    
This message has been edited by Dewsburian on Aug 5, 2017 1:44 PM


 
 
Guest
(Login Harrogateyorkie)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 2:03 PM 

Good post Dewsbarian. Pretty much sums up my feelings

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 2:24 PM 

Your version is so much more eloquent then mine.

Bit like comparing a write up in the Mirror with the Times.....

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 2:28 PM 

He's probably not out more often when he bats 7, making the statistics ridiculous

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 2:40 PM 

Keeping wicket taking leg side catches and outrunning the slip cordon when balls racing to third man.

I'd put him on as our first spinner in a few overs time so Moeen can be happier bowling as second fiddle

 
 
Dewsburian
(Login Dewsburian)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 2:57 PM 

Nice for him that he did record one century today: 95 catches and 5 stumpings at test level now.

Eventually, as in tennis or rugby, the technology will be used to make CORRECT decisions, rather than to APPEAL against decisions on the basis of whether they are slightly or hugely wrong (only a cricket administrator could have thought up anything quite so weird). It's hard to defend cricket to laypeople when the same episode of play can result in one particular decision or its exact opposite, depending on which particular mistake the on-field umpire has made.

EDIT:
An afterthought. Has anyone ever seen Jonny bowl? I think he's listed somewhere as right arm medium pace. I've seen a few overs from Gary Ballance - either at Kidderminster or Kings Heath, I forget which - but I've not seen Jonny's medium pace.


    
This message has been edited by Dewsburian on Aug 5, 2017 2:59 PM


 
 
twenty2guns
(Login twenty2guns)

4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 3:04 PM 

I've seen him bowl, on TV. It was a 4-day game against Durham 3 or 4 years ago. Final afternoon, game meandering towards a draw, he was given an over or two.

 
 
Guest
(Login Tyke1950)

Re: 4th Test | England vs South Africa at Old Trafford (Match Thread)

August 5 2017, 5:47 PM 

Wonderful innings by JB today. Such a pity he missed out on the deserved century.

I guess I must be in a minority of one over where he should bat in the order. I really like the six,seven,eight engine room in the England team. No-one can be a bigger admirer of Jonny than me; however he deserves a bit of a rest now and again. England's fragile top order means that batting at five will hardly ever give him much of a break after keeping.

 
 
Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

England on top again

August 5 2017, 6:34 PM 

Another good day for England with bat and ball.

Just imagine what they could do with a couple more decent batsmen in the top 5.

Pity about JB's missed century but it's probably just marginally better, not for your average of course, getting out rather than being stranded on 99.

 
 
 
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