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Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017 at 9:45 AM
Guest  (Login ThirdUmpire)

The debate about Kolpaks made me think about how the game has developed.

In the period up to the 60s you played for one county for life with no central contracts or overseas players.

Then the 70s saw overseas players dominate games for counties and we were left behind with our pride in only picking Yorkshire born players admirable but unsuccessful.

Then we caught up with the times, swallowed our pride and tried to compete again on a level playing field.

Then central contracts and kolpaks came along but we also saw players move around more freely. Now we see it happening mid season as the norm.

So do we accept the modern game is changing and jump on the bandwagon to keep up or do we stick with our principles and try and keep a home grown team? If the latter do we accept that success may be a casualty as a result?

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(Login matthefish2002)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 9:52 AM 

Think Yorkshire are a club that prides itself on producing home grown players that go onto international cricket. If this means we are not a successful as we might otherwise have been then so be it.
Clubs like Glamorgan, Hampshire, Lancashire and Derbyshire are trading hopefully short term success for the long term good of the English game which to me is not right and slightly soulless.

One overseas player is about right to me. Think ECB should look into financial penalties more of clubs who use the loopholes into the EU regulations to by pass this rule. Although I concede I don't know the legalities of this.

(Login Lewis116)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 10:15 AM 

We are a very proud county with very proud people within it. That said we are also desperate to win.

So that leads me to feel the right answer is a happy medium when it comes to Kolpaks - Or a balance in other words.

We have had Kolpaks before in the likes of Kruis. We also have a fine history of developing our own.

We are in development with the likes of Lees, Brook, Leaning, TKC, Coad etc all still young and one way or another finding their place.

My issue is we lack a lynchpin batsman in the absence of Ballance. We were hoping that would be Handscomb but it isn't.

In addition and I have said this for some time, Hodd is an admirable keeper but my view is these days you need a batting keeper. We have been so reliant on Bresnan (and Rash when available). It cannot go on forever.

To summarise. I think we have enough bowlers. I don't buy into Brooks being past it. In him, Coad, Bresnan, Plunkett we have a quality attack when available. There is enough in Fisher to persevere. Willey has been invested in and you sense may be left behind by England - So lets try and get the best from him.

Batting has worried me years. The overreliance on one batsman (Bairstow and now Ballance) is the big worry.

We need a proper batsman ideally at 3 and a keeper batsman in the top 6. The rest of the team I would hope to be Yorkshire born, raised or already signed from elsewhere and developed.

Brook Lyth Marsh? Ballance C Lees WK? Bresnan Rashid Plunkett (Willey) Brooks Coad

(Login Seadog73)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 10:16 AM 

You can't penalise anyone for allowing people to legally work here, but you can reward counties for fielding home grown players, which already happens.

(Login rognumber)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 11:47 AM 

Interesting debate which I have alluded to before ( probably in the aftermath of the shocking 2nd day against Essex last week ! )
As I said then Yorkshire are caught in the dilemma of sticking to their principles and home grown players at the expense of silverware or bringing in players to replace the obvious and potentially irreplaceable talent they produce, that in order to keep up with other teams and be competitive.
I say irreplaceable talent because you only have to look at the current ICC test batting rankings where ( to my surprise ) Bairstow is now SEVENTH not far behind Kohli and Rahane and of course Root is still second behind Steve Smith.
So my point on this is that a player of the quality of R or B are once in a generation if not more. To have two of them in the same team never mind the same generation is awesome. Add to this the talent of Ballance who I think could still be not far behind then it is clear to me that Yorkshire have no other serious homegrown batting option at the moment and should have recruited players from other counties ( such as Stoneman ) or Kolpaks ( maybe Stiaan van Zyl- Sussex ) in order to have any chance of staying competitive.
I would rather have this option of still competing for something rather than the relegation battle we now face over the next 4 CC games !!

This message has been edited by rognumber on Aug 14, 2017 12:22 PM


Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 1:44 PM 

But, Dave, we have just won two Championship titles with a largely homegrown team. And if we won with a bunch of Kolpaks and recruits from other counties, would it have felt the same? Would it have been WE that had won the titles?

I feel it wouldn't, and that's where the two sides of the debate differ. For me, I couldn't support a side that wasn't essentially Yorkshire. That's my objection to the whole franchise concept.

I watched van Zyl against England in South Africa, a player totally out of his depth at that level, nowhere near as good as Lyth, and probably (arguably) no better than Lees, Leaning, Rhodes and the like. We have repeatedly employed overseas players billed as 'world class', from Yuvraj Singh via Maxwell, Handscomb and now Sarfraz. Can he keep wicket better than Hodd? Not on recent evidence. Can he bat better? Who knows, but not so far.

Even Williamson, one of the greats of the modern game, never really produced the stats for Yorkshire. Finch, ironically, did better in the 4-day than in the T20.

I believe we should continue as before, with our own players + one top-class overseas + the occasional Kruis or Brooks or Hodd to cover short-term deficiencies. If that involves the occasional relegation, so be it. I would rather watch 10 Yorkshire lads in action at Bristol or Colwyn Bay than a team of mercenaries winning the first division.

(Login Bergenopzoom)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 1:50 PM 

If we join in the pursuit of international standard Kolpaks we are doing our bit to kill off Test cricket.

This will in turn remove the need for Root, Bairstow et al to be taken away from county cricket.

Hence they will return to Yorkshire and we won't need the Kolpaks.

And if you think that's a good result then my bum's a banjo!

Frank Smith
(Login FreshStart1987)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 14 2017, 10:35 PM 

I think we have to make a minimum one kolpac signing next year and an overseas player

This has to come in the form of a batsmen who will score 1000+ runs in the cc

Look at
Hampshire - 6 kolpac n overseas (Edwards, Irvine, bailey, berg, Abbott and roussow)
Essex - 3 kolpac n oversees (ten doeschate, amir and harmer)
Lancashire - 5 kolpac n overseas (chanderpaul, vilas, mclaren, Jarvis and Khan)

All the above teams are above us in the table and look far stronger on paper than us.
We cannot carry on scoring under 250 and expect to avoid defeat let alone win games
You either adapt or die

This message has been edited by FreshStart1987 on Aug 14, 2017 10:37 PM


Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 8:38 AM 

Using your criteria, Frank, we could say Yorkshire have used 5 born overseas (Ballance, Rafiq, Handscomb, Marsh, Sarfraz).

(Login Lewis116)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 9:11 AM 

In fairness though, with the exception of Berg are they all not overseas players who came here after their early development?

In the case of Marsh and/or Sarfraz, we can knly play 1 of those in the CC/ODI.

Rafiq came over here as a kid and is as Yorkshire as you or I.

Ballance came from Derbyshire as a teenager and as far as I am concerned is developed by our academy.

Some of the names mentioned above - Roussew through to Edwards to Chanderpaul to Villas are out and out foreign players who have no link or development to that County.

(Login pdowgill)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 10:00 AM 

Although it pains me to say this, it is clear that the 4 day game cannot continue in the way it has. Given the amount of international fixtures and the continuing rise of T20, which is where the money is so will attract the ‘best’ players, any county player good enough to represent England will not be playing at all for the counties in the future due to the mental and physical demands on them at the highest level. Root at 26 has played 57 tests plus one dayers – Boycott at the same age had played 30 tests.

I have no idea what a county pro earns but, if Ansari is anything to go by, if you are not good enough for England what career does being a county pro actually provide in this day and age?

Why do overseas/Kolpak cricketers come here – it provides income and experience at a level they cannot get anywhere elsewhere at this time of year. If this continues we will end up like soccer i.e. a limited pool of English qualified players at the professional level, the difference being of course there are only 2 real pro leagues in cricket with already what seems about 25%(?) of players not qualified to play for England.

So the overseas/Kolpak route in my view is about short-term gain for individual counties and is something the counties really need to look at en-masse, all within, of course, current employment laws and regulations. They also need to look again at the purpose and structure of the 4 day game. Without some radical changes I cannot see the ‘county game’ existing in 10 years time.

(Login Martinh00)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 10:00 AM 

I'd disagree with the point that county sides replete with kolpaks look stronger than us on paper. On the contrary our squad looks pretty damn good on paper - it's the in practice bit that has been the problem!

I agree that we have lacked a batsman who can score 1000 runs. Problem is that on past form we could have expected at least three of them to reach that landmark. One domestic or kolpak signing would have provided insurance and I think many of us felt that this should have been done close season. I'm not fussed about signing one kolpak. I don't see how this differs from Lehmann playing for us full time for six years. What I wouldn't like is half the team to be non England qualified.

(Login tbsteve)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 11:48 AM 

To be fair, we have already left behind the nostalgia of the past.

Before the end of season, we could easily be playing a team including:

K-C, Hodd, Plunkett, Willey and Brooks. Add in an overseas and that means half the team were not Yorkshire developed.

Maybe it's time to accept that the modern era is different, and like in football and rugby, the reality is that players move for a variety of reasons.

(Login Spanishnick)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 12:21 PM 

I'd just like the lads we have to find the form they've shown before and that we know they" re capable of.If that happens we'll forget all about Kolpaks/dodgy passports/being a descendant of a part owner of an irish wolfhound etc etc

Frank Smith
(Login FreshStart1987)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 1:50 PM 

The kolpac players I highlighted are players that do not qualify play for England
I have no problem with foreign born players who qualify like ballance and pieterson
The players I highlighted are out and out kolpacs who have played international cricket
Also teams can only play one registered overseas player in a cc game so mentioning sarfaz n handscomb is silly

(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 15 2017, 2:24 PM 

I think your average Kolpak tends to have a two or three year contract and be available all year so they perhaps have an advantage over the overseas players where you are at the whim of their national team calling them away for an A team strength and conditioning camp at a weeks notice. But you typically expect overseas players to be better than your Kolpak so you put up with it.

I'm sensing a change now though where the Kolpak route is being taken by some players no longer wanting to play international cricket and they may be better county players than some of the overseas options you can find.

With competing schedules for IPL and the Caribbean t20 then some overseas players are not worth bothering with.

My view is that we may actually be better with a three year Kolpaker than a series of short term panic buy overseas players as we have stability and someone buying in to the team ethic.

Morkel, Abbott or Harmer or Chanderpaul would actually be decent overseas signings if not on Kolpak terms.

In our case would we have done better with the certainty from Morkel as a Kolpak for three years as opposed to Handscomb, Marsh, Sarfraz, Lehmann, Pujara and the other Aussie we had last year whose name escapes me!

I don't see this route as blocking junior player development or stifling progress for English eligible players or seeing us lose our proud identity. We all accepted Lehmann and Rudolph with open arms and that's because they played for us for many years and became honorary Yorkies. Kruis too fell into this category if not quite as talented.

So we may be better with a three year Kolpaker and forgetting the overseas merry go round of players we have to find at short notice. Then Gale and Moxon can focus on coaching and not signing players mid season!

(Login Y4EV)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 17 2017, 10:13 PM 

If we want to challenge for the league again next season we need 3 new signings, 2 new batsmen, one of whom to keep wicket and a left-arm bowler to replace Siddy. It's a question of are we prepared to be patient whilst we build again from the academy (whilst hoping we don't get relegated in the meantime), or do we bite and try to get success now?

(Login Martin00)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 18 2017, 9:38 AM 

Signing a left arm seamer to replace Sidebottom - rightly or wrongly - might well see us losing Willey. He was signed with the intention that he would eventually replace Sidders. It hasn't worked out for him in the four day game so far - and some doubt his bowling quality, but you can bet that he will be busting a gut over the winter to improve his bowling to take that slot in the team. Once his England career is at an end, I doubt that he will be happy only to play the one day stuff.

(Login EastYorkshireTyke)

Re: Pride or Prejudice?

August 18 2017, 10:38 AM 

"If we want to challenge for the league again next season we need 3 new signings, 2 new batsmen, one of whom to keep wicket and a left-arm bowler to replace Siddy. It's a question of are we prepared to be patient whilst we build again from the academy (whilst hoping we don't get relegated in the meantime), or do we bite and try to get success now?"

who should we should sign, fitting this description, exactly?

This message has been edited by EastYorkshireTyke on Aug 18, 2017 10:56 AM

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