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Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 2 2017, 8:06 PM 

We wouldn't have beaten Somerset without Patto, either, Idle Man.

The value of Leaning? 70 in a losing cause last time out, and the catch of the season in T20. Expected value? Well, perhaps he exceeded expectations on those two occasions.

A fully fit Sidebottom and Plunkett would be great; so would the Brooks of our Championship years. We live in hope, rather than expectations.

 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 2 2017, 8:13 PM 

Do you even watch T20?

Now you're selecting players based on a catch in a T20. Good one..


 
 
Frank Smith
(Login FreshStart1987)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 12:29 AM 

We are pathetic tbh this season has been nothing short of disgraceful. If staying up means moxon and gale stay in charge then I hope we lose all 4. The batting slump from last year has not been adressed and an ageing bowling attack is still our biggest threat. The complete lack of awareness and planning for the future has firmly made my mind up.

 
 
Guest
(Login BrickyardBoy)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 10:56 AM 

A word in defence of Jack Leaning. He is often criticised for not having made the most of his chances. However, on the other hand, he has rarely batted in the same position in the batting order for more than a couple of innings at a time, and frequently, he is the first to be moved around or dropped altogether in order to make way for someone else.

Against that he is a gritty batsman and, Ballance aside, is the only player I have seen play with determined application this season. In fact he has done so twice. His century in the Roses Match at Old Trafford, though far from fluent, and painful to watch, was the only thing that saved Yorkshire from defeat. Again, in the last Championship match at Scarborough he played in the same way.

If the decision had been mine, I would have played him at number 3 all season. By September we would then have known whether he was going to make it or not. As it is the question is still open.

He is a young man who appears to have talent; something in short supply in the Club at present. He needs to be given a prolonged and realistic chance to prove himself. If I were in charge I would tell him that he is batting at 3 for the rest of the season no matter who else becomes available. Before anyone throws their hands up in horror at this proposal, I would ask them to consider the situation with the openers, who have been vouchsafed apparent indefinite tenure irrespective of performance.

Underlying my comments is the certain knowledge that the team is in a period of transition, and therefore, the decision-making of the past needs to be replaced with a forward-looking analysis which is aimed at creating a new future.

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 11:31 AM 

I agree to some extent about Jack. I think he may be good enough, but to be honest not at no.3. He has been messed about, but he has had more chances than Will Rhodes, who has had to move on to get the same level of opportunity. The trouble is Rhodes, Waite, Leaning, and Willey too, would all like a berth in the 5-7 area, together with Bresnan, Rashid, and Hodd. The captain almost certainly regards 4 as his berth. Noone is standing up to bat 3, which is why Brook has been brought in, probably a little early.


 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 11:45 AM 

I tend to agree with that, BB, though perhaps at 5 rather than at 3.

Is the Moxon who is getting so much stick the same one who led us to two Championship wins? And Gale the same man who captained that team? Why all the hate, Frank?

What exactly is a coach supposed to do? In the end, the players are on the pitch, you are not. Cricket isn't like football or rugby where a coach can decide on pattern of play, defensive system, etc. All he can do is lay down a framework in which the individual feels relaxed to play at his best, and to help players with tweaks to technique, at this level. Is there any evidence that this is not being done?

Anyone who has played cricket will know that sometimes you feel balanced at the crease, that you strike the ball sweetly and hit the gaps, and when you make a mistake you get away with it. It's called being in form. A week on, and you could be batting with a lollipop stick against 15 fieldsman and a demon umpire.

This season, we have seen a slump in the batting of Lyth and Lees; but it was Ballance who had the lollipop stick last year, averaging around 100 this time, until first England and then injury took him from us.

As for future planning, we have successfully advanced Coad from the 2nd XI and introduced the likes of Carver, Waite and Brook. We have acquired Kohler-Cadmore from Worcestershire, and have employed high-profile Australians in the shorter term. I for one am sad that Rhodes will not be part of our rebuilding.

Yes, we could have gone down the Kolpak route; we still could. I hope we don't. We are Yorkshire.

Meanwhile, Essex are winning the County Championship with only three bowlers! Wagner/Amir, Porter and Harmer. Imagine the outcry here if Bopara was our third seamer! And Walter would struggle to get onto our 2s.

 
 
Frank Smith
(Login FreshStart1987)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 12:22 PM 

Let's put things in to perspective a bit. Your being slightly arrogant claiming we shouldn't sign kolpac players because we are Yorkshire. I'm sorry but it's a sport and winning is all that matters. If it means getting a kolpac number 3 that gets 1000+ runs next year then I would be delighted.

Its a results business and playing young players will reduce consistency but you have to have a blend, experienced players need to stand up and we should never have a middle order of brook, leaning and TKC. That's not fair on the individuals mentioned when lees and lyth are going for single digit scores.
At the moment we've had one batsman contribute which then means the younger players are coming in under pressure like the Essex and Somerset debacles.
Another point on gale although he was a fantastic captain it doesn't mean your going to be a great coach and that applies in any sport. Personally I think he's too close to the players to be their coach. We need somebody who's not got any affiliation with the current squad.

Younger players should of bin blooded in the early season one day cup. Rather than giving bairstow n root match practice for England

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 12:44 PM 

I think I sit somewhere in the middle of this debate.

It's not all about winning to me. It's about winning the right way and in the treadition of Yorkshire and within the spirit of cricket. As soon as it's all to do with winning then money wins and we end up like football.

The joy of cricket is that all counties have spells of greatness and periods in the doldrums. This years did 1 title will be won by a team in div 2 last year. I like the variety of successful teams and the more competitive nature of most matches.

Those who say only Ballance and leaning have shown any grit must have had their eyes shut when I saw Lyth at Scarborough last month and the rest of the team collapsed around him.

I'm all for a Kolpak if a long term eel to improve our team and they fit in with our style and approach. Kruis and Rudolph did. But some other options elsewhere are not for me. Right now I think we would do better with a three year Kolpak instead of a conveyor belt filling overseas slots on a month by month basis as we lose our shape and team balance which impacts others who are learning and they get shunted around.

And I was for Gale as coach for the continuity factor on the back of four great years. But this year it's change that's been needed and not continuity. An average coach can achieve success by doing nothing different when he has a winning team On the pitch. A good coach spots the need to change and is prepared to make the big decisions which is where I fear Gale has not shown his ability this season and we have carried on regardless when plan A is broken

 
 
Guest
(Login _JG_)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 2:01 PM 

I think I would go with:

Lyth
Lees (getting close to last chance though...)
Marsh
Kohler-Cadmore
Ballance
Bresnan
Rashid
Hodd
Plunkett
Coad
Sidebottom

It's certainly a difficult one with question marks over so many players- I would say only 5 are actually automatic selections at the moment (Lyth, Ballance, Rashid, Hodd, Coad).

 
 
Guest
(Login Harrogateyorkie)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 5:25 PM 

Speaking to Andrew Gale at Harrogate and Gary will definitely be fit.

While Lee's has been out if form, he made a very good 145, admittedly for seconds, hardly gave a chance, where as TKC scored quite a few if his boundaries through or over the slips. Could easily been out for low score. I would go with Alex, and as has been said, make Marsh earn his corn at 3.

Lyth
Lee's
Marsh
GB
Leaning
Bres
Hodd
Rash
Plunkett
Siddy
Coad

 
 
Alibor
(Login Alibor2)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 5:49 PM 

My team this week would be :-
Lyth, Lees (last chance), Leaning, Marsh, Ballance, Bresnan (just preferred over Willey), Rashid, Hodd, Plunkett, Patterson, Coad. SIdebottom at Scarborough was nowhere near his best. Leaning grafted well in second innings and I think number 3 is his best position in the order and Ballance is best at 5. I would open bowling with Coad and Bresnan (or Willey) and use Rashid earlier if they are digging in. We are likely to be batting first at 10.30am so top order will need to restrain shot making in the first session.

 
 
Stu
(Login StuartRA)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 6:44 PM 

DaveM said --- "....Is the Moxon who is getting so much stick the same one who led us to two Championship wins?...

C`mon Dave. Credit where credit is due. JG won us the two titles not MM. The only part MM played in our success was appointing JG in the first instance. It is JG that deserves 95% of the credit. As a coach (and not Director of Cricket, as he is now)) MM was won nothing, zero, zilch in over 20 years of coaching.

He is an average Director of Cricket, he is a very poor coach.


    
This message has been edited by StuartRA on Sep 3, 2017 6:44 PM


 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 6:52 PM 

And c'mon Stu. What you say might be true, but it isn't certain. For me, you only had to see Moxon and Dizzy together, on the field practising or nattering in the pavilion or round the boundary, to see that it was a successful working relationship.

 
 
Stu
(Login StuartRA)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 7:07 PM 

That may be right Idleman, but to complete ignore JG in handing out praise for winning two Championships is grossly insulting to the great coach he was.

Surely JG deserves some credit, instead of the statement "Moxon led us to two championships". Helped perhaps, but even that is open to question!!


    
This message has been edited by StuartRA on Sep 3, 2017 7:13 PM


 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 7:16 PM 

Moxon literally shrugged off our t20 disappointment to 'one of those things'. Terrific insight.

 
 
Guest
(Login Fozzie1973)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 7:27 PM 

We have had a lot of years of mediocrity & maybe 5 or 6 decent years during Moxon's era, the decent years mainly when Gillespie was there, he seems to have a very cushy number with his position never questioned, his flippant response to our t20 exit not what we needed to here when we've had such a poor season

 
 
sid
(Login sid-don)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 3 2017, 9:28 PM 

Team? Difficult. I've a sneaky feeling 'they' plan to bat Lees at 3. Can Marsh open?

If so Lyth, Marsh, Lees, GB, Leaning, Ras, Bres, Hodd, Plunkett, Coad and Sid

If Marsh is not going to open, they may look at TKC with Lyth, Marsh at 5 and Leaning dropping out.

Debate about MM: I usually agree with Idleman but we differ on MM. I think Stu has hit the nail on the head. Pre Dizzy poor, post Dizzy poor, Dizzy gets the credit. We went with the continuity option, which logically isn't possible, as what made us successful was gone and not replaced.

AG was vital when captain, (the axis was JG / AG and not JG / MM) so for that reason is still deserving of our support and time to prove himself however it's obvious he's struggling and watching him at Harrogate last week he had the air of a 'dead man walking'. My understanding is that the appointment of Dizzy was the recommendation of Michael Vaughan and Geoff Boycott who, I think, were both board members at the time and not the work of MM.


    
This message has been edited by sid-don on Sep 3, 2017 9:38 PM


 
 
Kevin Owens
(Login kevinowens)

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 4 2017, 7:36 AM 

Marsh to open with Lyth or Lees tomorrow. Adam Lyth's wife due to give birth. If Lyth does play Lee's will be in the middle order. Just read this in the T&A

 
 
Steve C
(Login stevecowton)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Championship | Yorkshire vs Middlesex at Headingley (Pre-match Thread)

September 4 2017, 9:05 AM 

Always worth remembering that there are two meanings of T and A....

I cant see Lees having any more success in the middle order than he did when opening.
It would be terribly unfair to jettison Leaning in order to play Lees out of position..

 
 
Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)

14 man Squad announced.

September 4 2017, 9:25 AM 

Rules out speculation on Willey being included at any rate but still plenty of room for juggling.

Gary Ballance ©
Tim Bresnan
Jack Brooks
Ben Coad
Andrew Hodd (WK)
Tom Kohler-Cadmore
Jack Leaning
Alex Lees
Adam Lyth
Shaun Marsh
Steven Patterson
Liam Plunkett
Adil Rashid
Ryan Sidebottom

Brooks, Lees, Patto to miss out for me.

 
 
 
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