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Guest
(Login BrickyardBoy)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 24 2017, 9:05 PM 

An argument can be made for seeing Hutton as a post WW2 player; he played for 6 seasons up to 1939 and for 10 seasons after the war. His availability for the post WW2 side changes things considerably.

A second issue has to be addressed. No "player" captained Yorkshire, in the modern era, before WW2. It could be argued, therefore, that team selection should reflect this reality. It is a parallel, but obverse, argument to that which allows the selection of Lehmann in the Post WW2 Team. The archetypal amateur was, obviously, Lord Hawke, but despite his many other qualities he could not be considered to be a great cricketer in playing terms. In fact, Wisden recognised this implicitly, towards the end of his career as YCCC captain by publishing "Lord Hawke and Four Cricketers of the Year" in the 1909 Edition. Of all the amateurs to have captained Yorkshire before 1939, the only one of greatness was F S Jackson, and therefore, he should be given serious consideration.

Thirdly, I incline to the view that players should be selected “in position”. The pre-WW2 number 3, would probably, on this basis, have to be David Denton.

With regard to the selection of spin bowlers, it is arguable that any team which has Peel or Rhodes or Verity does not need a second left arm spinner and that the inclusion of two is something of a “cop-out” in selection, as there is always a need for balance in any attack. Roy Kilner would be the obvious foil to whichever of the left armers were chosen.

Finally, the pre-eminence of David Hunter is marginal in terms of returns as Arthur Wood "lost 5 seasons to WW2. I would not quarrel with either selection, but Wood should at least appear on a shortlist.

So if “push came to shove”, then my two elevens would be:

Pre-WW2:
Holmes
Sutcliffe
Denton
Leyland
Jackson (Capt)
Kilner
Rhodes
Hirst
Macauley
Hunter/Wood
Bowes

Post WW2:
Hutton
Boycott
Root
Lehmann
Close (Capt)
Bairstow
White
Wardle
Trueman
Binks
Sidebottom

I admit to a "cop-out" on the Hunter/Wood issue, but it is intentional, as I want to see Wood's name appear on the team-sheet. Something one of his captains deliberately, as I understand it, ensured did not happen at the point at which he would have gained the record for the highest number of consecutive games played for the County. And for no other reason than Wood had been overheard looking forward to the achievement. "Have to keep these players in their place!"


    
This message has been edited by BrickyardBoy on Oct 24, 2017 9:29 PM


 
 
Tyke1950
(Login Tyke1950)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 24 2017, 9:46 PM 

And in a six match series, alternately covered and uncovered wickets, (all other factors being equal), which team would win the competition?

 
 
Paul
(Login pdowgill)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 24 2017, 11:28 PM 

Great thread - this has taken me back to Derek Hodgson's, who died earlier this year as I am sure you all know, The Official History of YCC (£17.95 in 1989). A great read of pre-war cricketers in particular and a book if you have not got worth searching second hand shops for. It would be good to have an update in the 30 years since in a similar vein. So on re-reading what about Schofield 'sunshine' Haigh in the pre-war team - 1800 wickets at less that 16 and a batting average of just under 20.

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 12:14 AM 

A thoughtful post from Brickyard Boy...good stuff!

I agree about FS Jackson, and he would be the obvious captain, for reasons BB explained. Absolutely outstanding Test record. Schofield Haigh, too, is a Yorkshire legend, and surely there's no place for Peel or (sadly) Roy Kilner, given the mighty presence of both Rhodes and Verity.

BB's post-war side looks immensely strong with Hutton opening, but it could be better in bowling, with only three specialists in his XI. Need to get either Illingworth or one of many the fine seamers in there, or both, at the expense of one or two of the batsmen. You can understand how selectors finish up rejecting the specialist wicket-keeper under these circumstances. But I'd still pick Binks!

You'd pay good money to watch Hutton and Root batting against Verity, on any pitch. Well I would. I suppose T20 fans would be bored.

 
 
Seadog73
(Login Seadog73)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 7:50 AM 

Would they, Dave? I'm sure plenty would enjoy both, myself included.

 
 
Anglian Exile
(Login AnglianExile)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 7:57 AM 

Further to Paul's post, Derek Hodgson's Official History of YCCC can be obtained for about £2.80 post-free through abebooks.co.uk

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 8:33 AM 

I agree about Jackson. However I’m not sure there would be a problem with any captain, as long as ‘he always did what Wilfred told him.’

Nor do I see a need to choose between Rhodes and Verity. My impression is they were very different bowlers. Verity was much quicker wasn’t he?

 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 9:19 AM 

Unless we are talking about the pre war cricketers playing now and benefitting from the same advancements in Sport, then it wouldn't even be a contest between them and the modern era.

In the same way Jesse Owens 1936 wouldn't get anywhere near peak Usain Bolt!

 
 
Steve C
(Login stevecowton)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 9:25 AM 

Could we pick Hutton for both sides....?

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 10:54 AM 

I'm not sure Jackson would have done what Wilfred told him. I believe it was Jackson who recommended to His Lordship (Hawke) that Rhodes was 'the better of the two Colts' [the other one being Albert Cordingley] when a left-arm spinner was needed to replace the sacked Bobby Peel.

Unlike other amateur captains, Hawke included, Jackson was a great cricketer in his own right. [Going on stats, of course, that's all we have.]

As for the improving health and strength as the generations pass, and a possible physical mismatch between the two eras - would the pre-war bunch be able to cope with a potential pace attack of Trueman + any of several? - I am not sure, for two reasons.

One is that cricketers DO span the generations successfully. As Rhodes himself did, and more recently the likes of Boycott, Close, Illingworth and indeed Sidebottom. As 'old men' none of these got blown away by the younger generation.

The other reason is that the playing of cricket in England has shrunk to perhaps a tenth of what it was, when every little school, every village and many industrial firms all had their own grounds and own teams, when cricket was played in the street and on the beach, when it was very much the people's summer game. There were so many cricketers to choose from, so much competition at every level, it's hard to imagine this didn't result in higher standards at the top end.

Bolt might have beaten Owens (though did Owens run in modern shoes on a synthetic track?) but I'm damn sure Jack Brooks or Ben Coad wouldn't beat Fred Trueman! Not at bowling or anything else. And that's not a slight on two fine modern players, believe me.


 
 
sid
(Login sid-don)
Assistant Moderator

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 11:08 AM 

Are we selecting players based on a typical performance or their very best, even when the very best didn't last for long? For example Paul Jarvis during early 1988, edges into my team as the 3rd seamer, but that would be based on a small window rather than a whole career. The same perhaps could be said of Chris Silverwood and, at a real push, Gav Hamilton. Its also probably the case with Craig White.

Are we selecting on their career with Yorkshire only, if so this impacts on Gough and Vaughan (and obviously Root, JB and to some extent Rashid) who were taken by Team England? If those players have been around in an earlier generation and played more for the county, I suspect they'd all be shoo-ins.

Ok my thoughts: I'm sorry but I have to go against some of my favourite posters, I'm leaving out the best specialist keeper (Binks) in favour of young Bairstow. Also I only saw Brain Close in his later Somerset days, if he doesn't captain is he worth his place? Donning my tin hat I'm leaving him out.

I'm going with

Boycott, Hutton, Vaughan, Root, Lehmann, JB, Illy, Rashid, Gough, Trueman and Sidebottom (R).

Wardle seems to be the best post war spinner, but not a team man - don't like that, that's why he's out.

Seamers: Old, Hoggard, Silvers, Bres, Arnie, Jarvis, Appleyard, Nicholson, not a lot between them. FST and Ryan stand out, I think Gough edges the final place but circumstances, time of his career and poor advice hurt his legacy, although when he returned as captain I sense we started to love him again and forgave his faults.

I'd have loved to see this lot play T20, I suspect they'd be rather good.

Oh dear, what every happened to NLOP!

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 2:22 PM 

Patto would probably have got on the pre-war side!

Not sure about classifying Bob Appleyard as a seamer, though he did take the new ball on occasions. World-class off-spinner, same era as Jim Laker and hampered by illness.

I often wonder whether Johnny Wardle would have been a 'better person' if he had been brought up (as a cricketer) in the current sympathetic era rather than in the poisonous 1950s. I reckon he would be the best paid player on earth if he was around now, absolute box-office, could do everything, could bowl everything.

 
 
Paul
(Login pdowgill)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 6:26 PM 

It is a interesting point as to whether the pre-war could match the post-war due to advancements in fitness/diet etc. The only area where I see it might have an impact is in fielding as 90mph is 90mph whatever era, spin is spin and hand/eye coordination has not changed that much. Of course pre-war players did bowl significantly more overs a day than the current lot, so may be they were fitter than we give them credit for or is it they were just tougher? So it comes down to the pitches. And, in our 'field of dreams' we would need both covered and uncovered pitches (at least 4+ of the post war choices of many on here would have never played first class cricket on uncovered pitches) with a groundsman from each era to prepare them. Also an agreement is needed on how many overs a day and the number of days.

One of the great features of cricket is that the fundamentals of the longer format have not changed so (like baseball) we can compare eras. Just listen to Boycs going on about Bradman on TMS suggests that players of that era and before would have been greats whenever they had played; otherwise the GOAT can only ever come from the most recent times - a tad arrogant i might suggest of the present generation. If 'current' is better how come Sutcliffe still has the highest average for an England opener, in fact any countries opener?

And a final thought, who will umpire?

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 9:16 PM 

Umpires? Well, not the most famous Yorkshire umpire please. I’d say one from each era, and a contrast in personalities: John Hampshire and Emmott Robinson.

If we’re looking for factors which differentiate between the two eras, we could make them play with traditional bats.

 
 
Big Rich
(Login Newyorkie)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 25 2017, 10:48 PM 

Sid-don.
Interesting that you exclude Wardle on the basis that he's not a team man, yet still include Boycott!

 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 26 2017, 12:18 AM 

Modern day teams would save 100+ runs in the field compared to the pre war 'walk to to the boundary' era.


 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 26 2017, 7:13 AM 

I’d thought about the Wardle/Boycott comparison too. Both seem to have been self-obsessed and incapable of seeing how negative their presence was at times, yet both, according to individual accounts, could be generous with their time and wise with advice at others. Wardle is one of the heroes of Stephen Chalke’s new book about Geoff Cope.

 
 
Anthony Rowe
(Login tonyinsiam)

Post WW2 Team

October 26 2017, 3:29 PM 

Johnny Wardle would be in my Post War team as one of 2 spinners, along with Bob Appleyard. I saw him play (in the 50'and 60's) mostly at the Bramall lane ground-we got 5 games a season there in those days. His record was remarkable in the sense that he bowled a colossal number of overs (even for those days). Not only was his wicket haul very high but he could tie down batsman after batsman with his mixture of left arm off breaks,Chinaman and leg breaks. A whole hearted player with a hit or miss approach to batting- 4's and 6's a plenty. A stocky, very strong man both in body and mind. Hence, his reputation for being a bit"stroppy".
I had the pleasure of meeting him at his coaching 'school', after he was sacked by Yorkshire. He loved his cricket and opened a coaching set up which was a hired Barn, near Hatfield, Doncaster. Absolutely freezing in winter. Only fleeting meetings, of course, but he came across as very affable and enthusiastic, running it himself with no helpers. I was a batsman (supposedly) so didn't benefit as much as my mate -an Indian spinner. He did demonstrate how to hit 4 's and 6's which, when I put into practice (or should that be practise) strangely resulted in being out.
He did admit to being headstrong (not his word) but mostly with the authorities. He said that the players were all strong enough to take it and in many cases responded in kind.
I dared not ask him if the (apothrecal?) story involving Fred was true.
Here it is:
The West Indies quicks were in full cry- would it be Hall and Griffith?
Fred was on his way out to bat and on passing Johnny ,coming back,after his first ball duck , said, "That was a c**p shot."
Following which Fred was out first ball.On his return to the pavilion Johnny met him and said, "That was an even c*****r shot."
Only for Fred to reply, "Aye, ah slipped ont' s**t tha left."

 
 

Dave Morton
(Login DaveMorton)

Re: Pre-ww2 Yorkshire Vs post-ww2 Yorkshire

October 26 2017, 9:04 PM 

Tony, the usual version of the story has Tyson as the bowler. Wardle was gone before Hall and Griffith were a force, though he would have played against Gilchrist - Roy, not Adam - in 1957. Hall was on that tour, but very much a gangling, coltish bowler at that stage. The 'pace like fire' came later.

I had a conversation with Ray Julian, who was a wicket-keeper who batted at 11 for Leicestershire before becoming a world class umpire. We were discussing the difference helmets have made to the tailend batsman. He said that when he played against Tyson, his only ambition was to live!

 
 
Anthony
(Login tonyinsiam)

Pww2 Team

October 27 2017, 10:59 AM 

Ok- thanks for that information, Dave. Good thing I doubted my memory, although I am surprised that it was Tyson and not Fred. Wish I had been braver and asked Johnny now.

 
 
 
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