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Way forward for England

December 17 2017 at 10:42 AM
Brian  (Login NewBrian)
from IP address 87.115.165.150

 
Once the Ashes are lost, it will be time to look to the future. Although it doesn't seem long since we were thought to be producing better players than the Australians and 'experts' were advocating that they change their first-class system to something closer to ours, the fact is that they have almost always produced a greater number of better, harder players down the years.
First, we need to give first-class cricket back its pre-eminence, playing games in the heart of the season and roll back on the one-day circuses. Crucially, we must take a measure of central control of pitches and make every effort to get some pace and bounce back into them, thus developing bowlers who don't rely on swing and nibble off the seam. And that includes Headingley, however exciting we thought last year's Test was.
It seems to me one of the problems has been not so much players coming through the ranks who are essentially looking to become one day specialists but potentially good first-class players who feel they have to change horses in mid stream so in their early 20s they are desperate to prove their attacking credentials and losing their way in the four-day game. We can point to several, can't we? Talent is being wasted.

The problems go much deeper than reshuffling the pack and sacking the coach.
Only one player in the under-19 world cup one-day squad suggests Yorkshire are failing in that genre too.

 
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Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)
176.24.185.153

Re: Way forward for England

December 17 2017, 11:31 AM 

Yes the fact that the likes of Malan and Vince are being picked in the test side when it was one day cricket that first brought them in the scene at international level shows the county game isn’t geared to produce test players and whilst the four day games are shoe horned in around the other stuff at start and fag end of the season and the test players are hardly ever released to play against other counties means the production line isn’t tested til they are tried out in tests.

 
 
Lew
(Login Lewis_116)
5.64.239.101

Re: Way forward for England

December 17 2017, 11:56 AM 

Our planning for this tour has been a disaster and very naive. Taking players like Overtones Flakes and Crane who have not even played one Test match beforehand is insane.

When playing weaker opposition in the early summer we should have tried to find that elusive fast bowler we need. I would suggest that isn't Garton just yet as he is so young and not a Sussex regular but could be fast tracked. Why not give Footitt a go? We are far too predictable.

The batting is a disaster. Cannot handle pace. Malan aside who has been a welcome surprise, vpVince and Ballance just can't kick on.

I don't think we have an answer. The positive is that the Lions squad is full of talent. Maybe it's time to fast track some of these lads and give them a long run and investment - Garton, Crane, J Overton, Lawrence...

I have to admit to finding Bayliss quite uninspiring. It's not all his fault but we are inconsistent and the night out scandals could maybe suggest a fresh start all round.

 
 
Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)
95.146.130.152

Ashes to ashes

December 17 2017, 7:24 PM 

Our bowlers just haven't been able to compete in Australian conditions. The injuries to Wood and Finn and the non selection of Plunkett left us without any pace in conditions where it's a necessity. It hasn't been helped by the failure to take a specialist spinner who is actually selectable. Broad has been a disappointment as has Moeen Ali, the rest of the bowlers have tried hard but have shown no consistency. On the batting side, this might be a series too far for Cook, though I don't blame the selectors for picking him, they didn't have much choice. Root has had a mare, I hope he learns plenty from this experience. Stoneman, Malan and Bairstow have done alright but haven't come up with enough runs to really turn a game. Not convinced about Vince, just because he got out to a Jaffa today doesn't mean the selectors should forget his other dismal dismissals. For the future, think 2018 will see the end of the fabulous international careers of both Anderson and Cook. Serious questions need to be asked about Moeen Ali. I know he's a nice guy and bit of a talisman for England but he's arguably not good enough at either discipline. Stokes has been badly missed, I don't like him but I know England are a better balanced team when he plays. Plenty of new names and second chancers in the frame for next year, T Curran, Lawrence, Foakes, Livingstone, Hameed and probably half a dozen more. Don't think we are short of good cricket players, just need to find the real competitors and get someone in to motivate them.

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)
213.123.41.194

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 7:23 AM 

Sometimes you have to stick with the players as they need time to adapt to test cricket. County cricket is littered with players who have had a brief flirtation at test level.

Lyth Robson Hameed Westley Jennings as batsmen could all come again but are they better than Cook Stonemsn and Vince?

Vince needs to show he is learning from his errors and there are signs of that. Malan appears to have the stomach for the fight and Stone man has the better technique and temperament of those tried before him. Some should never have been picked ahead of him in my view in the past.

But it’s the senior pros like Cook Root and Ali with the bat who have let us down this series more than the fresh blood. Only Bairstow of the seniors can claim to have shown the necessary level expected

 
 
Twelfth Man
(Login twelthman)
109.155.80.186

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 7:48 AM 

I would like them to stick with the current xi at least for the next two series at least. There were promising signs last summer but this was always likely to happen in Australia. I hope Cook and Anderson stick around for another year or two as well, less so Broad.

Above all though the old adage is true in reverse: Weak Yorkshire, weak England.

 
 
YorkTyke
(Login YorkTyke)
109.180.113.98

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 9:43 AM 

The editor of Wisden says the problems are all the fault of the counties - again! :-http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ashes/article-5186855/Ashes-346-1-score-shame-ECB-Englands-fell-apart.html

 
 
garywilson
(Login garywilson2)
109.166.222.230

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 10:46 AM 

A bit odd Farbrace says we do not have 90mph bowlers in our set up when we have Plunkett playing T10 in Sharjah and not even in the squad and Mark Wood there but they would not risk him for a one off game at the WACA .

 
 
Otley
(Login Otley)
86.131.241.219

Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 11:00 AM 

The ECB clearly don't have winning away from home as any sort of priority. Why else would our domestic First Class cricket be played almost exclusively in April, May & September when conditions are at their most "English". It is very noticeable that Scarborough in July & August is seen as fast & bouncy - Plunkett in 2015 and Overton (who is seen as not quick enough in Australia) this year seemed to County players to be like the Aussie trio are to England. Until we play red ball cricket in the height of summer we will always struggle away from home. But, of course, the ECB make their money from us winning Tests at home and T20 in the height of summer.

I also think that our International players hardly playing red ball cricket outside of Tests is a major issue. Where do they get to put skills they have worked on in the nets into practice? Three hours in the nets working on something might well involve being "out" 10+ times but staying batting or hitting the side of the net trying to develop a new delivery or run up. They need to put things into practice in a match situation but out of the International spotlight.

Our major problem is bowling away from home. 400+ in 3 of our last five away games, then losing them all by an innings does not look good! Yes it would be nice if the batting were more consistent but where do 20 (or even 10) wickets come from, other than in "English" day/night conditions in Adelaide? It would be interesting to see how the Aussie batsmen fare against their own bowlers and vice versa. I see they are going to play with a Duke ball in their domestic cricket before coming here next, did we contemplate using a Kookaburra here last season? Then again when would our Test players have faced or bowled with it?

 
 
Stu
(Login StuartRA)
Assistant Moderator
79.69.151.206

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 11:04 AM 

India and Australia do not play well in English conditions, just as we struggle overseas to get wickets. We nearly always lose abroad, touring sides usually lose in England. It`s getting to the point where we need two bowlings squads, one for this country and the other for overseas tours. The problem with that is it increases the amount of central contracts needed and also increases the costs.

Broad, Anderson, Woakes and the like are in-effective, if not useless, overseas and a spinner who can actually turn the ball is also needed for overseas tours.

Overseas bowling squad ---- Plunkett, Wood, Footit, Finn, Garton and the like then "proper" spinners like Rashid, Crane & Leach.

Home squad --- Anderson, Broad, Woakes, TRJ and the like plus Ali.





    
This message has been edited by StuartRA from IP address 79.69.151.206 on Dec 18, 2017 6:42 PM


 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)
82.132.213.45

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 11:29 AM 

I would have added Plunkett after Finn's injury. But let's not get too carried away. He would likely be bowling mid 80s in his 2nd spell onwards and would do well to last the series. Appears in his absence he's become a far far superior bowler than he is! Also hurrying a few English countt batsmen isn't the same as doing it to Smith, Warner in their own back yard.

 
 
garywilson
(Login garywilson2)
109.166.222.230

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 12:56 PM 

We have not had much success with bowlers who are only mid 80s in their FIRST spell so a gamble with someone who can at least bowl with real pace at the start might not have been a bad idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy8zVYSDD2s

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)
82.132.221.194

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 1:09 PM 

Didn’t we take a group of ‘specialist’ tall bowlers last time? It didn’t do much good.

 
 
CricketWanderer
(Login CricketWanderer)
81.159.197.72

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 3:09 PM 

There was much more Championship cricket in the summer during the 1990s - not only were England very poor, often even at home, but I don't recall there being a huge supply of fast bowlers and international class spinners either. Just as now, there were a few of them.

 
 
Dwight_Schrute
(Login Dwight_Schrute)
82.132.245.193

Re: Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 3:22 PM 

Exactly, been getting hammered in Aus for years bar one series. Can't blame recent changes to CC for them!

Gary, i said i would have taken Plunkett, i'm just stating he is now being overrated based on nothing other than the failings of others.

 
 
twenty2guns
(Login twenty2guns)
217.43.17.107

Way forward for England

December 18 2017, 8:07 PM 

I don't have much confidence that Plunkett would remain fit for very long if he was playing Test matches. He seems to pick up a lot of strains just playing One Day cricket. He played 2 first class matches last year I believe, he was injured early in the second innings at Scarborough, the other game became a 2 day game and he only had to bowl in one innings, against Middlesex.

I think was can standby for yet another review of County cricket, Bayliss has already said there's too much cricket played, but the ECB have already committed to adding another T20 tournament from 2020, which formed the basis for the sale of media rights. Are they going to reduce the 4-day schedule even further?

 
 
Geoff B
(Login Coastalview)
95.146.130.152

Trying too hard

December 18 2017, 9:55 PM 

Fitness is of course an issue for fast bowlers.

Tend to think that the English fast one's Plunkett, Finn, Wood spend a lot of time injured because they put everything they have into their bowling.

While most others perhaps hold back a few Mph and manage their fitness levels better.

Of course early and late season matches in England on damp pitches you will rarely feel really confident of your footing which may also knock off a few more Mph.

 
 
Guest
(Login ThirdUmpire)
213.123.41.194

Re: Way forward for England

December 19 2017, 8:08 AM 

So there’s too much county cricket being played leading to players not having energy or fitness to step up to play test matches.

So reduce the number of county matches which means the four day game which takes up most days will suffer. One day cricket will then become the training ground for test matches.... there’s something that doesn’t quite add up here

 
 
Idle man
(Login Idle_man)
82.69.51.91

Re: Way forward for England

December 19 2017, 8:18 AM 

Too much cricket would sound less unconvincing if the players weren't ready to jump on a plane to anywhere, anytime, at the first whisper of the breeze through a cheque book.

 
 

Guest
(Login matthefish2002)
84.45.226.196

Re: Way forward for England

December 19 2017, 9:38 AM 

I thought the main idea behind central contracts was that the best players were not too tired from playing too much county cricket as the ECB would be in charge of their schedule.

Still believe the biggest problem in the long term for English cricket is less and less people are playing and are interested in cricket.
I really don't know what you do to reverse this.

 
 
 
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