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Substitute for Pellgun Oil

February 5 2009 at 2:30 PM
  (Login BenBenson)
Crosman Forum Member
from IP address 98.19.159.42

 
Well, I forgot to order some pellgun oil recently from an online retailer. I looked at the stores here and they don't carry it. The guy on the Pyramyd Air blog (B.B. Pelletier) said that you can substitute Automatic Transmission Fluid for Pellgun Oil. Anyone know if this is accurate, or recommend another substitute?

Thanks

 
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Chris
(Login CRpointman)
Crosman Forum Member
99.152.23.241

Non-detergent 30 Wt. motor oil......

February 5 2009, 3:02 PM 

A Quart of it costs about the same as a 1/2 Oz.of Pellgum oil, but without the the red dye.

HTH




******America is all about speed. Hot, nasty, badass speed - Eleanor Roosevelt ******

 
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RedFeather
(Login RedFeather)
Crosman Forum Member
173.73.150.148

I don't really understand Pellgun Oil

February 5 2009, 4:06 PM 

Mostly seen not so positive posts about it and that it's, as said, motor oil at a substantially higher cost/quart. The ATF has been recommended where synthetic seals and o-rings are involved as it's not supposed to degrade them. I'm not sure what kind of gun PellGun Oil or ATF is supposed to be used in.


 
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fa
(Login Fidel_in_PR)
Crosman Forum Member
72.50.117.65

IMHO....

February 5 2009, 4:42 PM 

... I've used ATF in my 2100 for 19 years, and it shoots just like the first day if not better. All original seals. Also used ATF for less than a year on my co2 guns and I haven't had any seal deterioration problems to date.

Pellgun is WAY over priced, and many persons have stated it's no more than 30wt ND oil with some coloring added. I will be mixing some ATF and 30wt ND soon and see what happens...





 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

I been using Tri-Flo without incident....

February 5 2009, 4:41 PM 

The concern is not to destroy O-rings with your lubricant. I don't know what type of material Crosman's O-rings are comprised of but so far(6 months?) they have not been adversly affected. Most O-rings are tolerant of petroleum based lubricants but some are harsher than others. I would be careful with ATF.


Tri-flo according to the MSDS:

Heavy Aliphatic Solvent. 29 Not Established 1.00
64742-96-7
Naphthenic Oil. 23 5 MG/M3 as Mist 0.00
64742-63-8
Heavy Naphthenic Petroleum Oil. 2 5 5 MG/M3 as Mist 0.00
64742-52-5
Highly refined Naphthenic Oil. 4 5 5 MG/M3 as Mist 0.00
64742-53-6
Heavy Mineral Oil. 23 5 5 MG/M3 as Mist 0.10
64741-96-4
Distillates, petroleum, solvent-degr. 4 5 5 MG/M3 as Mist 0.00
64742-65-0
2-Methoxymethylethoxypropanol 2 100 100 PPM (Skin) 0.40
34590-94-8 STEL 150 150 PPM (Skin)
Amyl Acetate. 3 100 100 PPM 4.00
628-63-7
-------------------------------------
Barium (as Ba; total) 0.9

[linked image]

 
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fa
(Login Fidel_in_PR)
Crosman Forum Member
72.50.117.65

if ATF were to bust up o-rings ...

February 5 2009, 4:51 PM 

... all automatic transmission equipped cars would be in deep doo-doo, since they have a bunch of o-rings permanently dipped in heated ATF and under constant pressure... I use BUNA 90 for all my co2 o-rings and haven't had one fail due to ATF attack.

Can't guarantee the stock Crosman seals are not cheap o-rings, but they do seem softer, and kind of porous under a magnifying glass...

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

IIRC, there are two different kinds of ATF...

February 5 2009, 5:33 PM 

the newer ATF is silcone based and not harmful, the older type is the stuff to stay away from, Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Most O-rings can withstand solvents according to the descriptions on sites like http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=h5cq6

the trick is to match up the O-ring and solvent; better safe than sorry.

[linked image]

 
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fa
(Login Fidel_in_PR)
Crosman Forum Member
72.50.117.65

like Dexron / Mercon / Mercon V / type F

February 5 2009, 7:23 PM 

...I've always used Dexron oils, maybe that's why I haven't had any problems.

Mercon (not Mercon V) is similar to Dexron.

Mercon V and type F oils are stronger and have other additives that may really bugger up seals...

 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

tri-flow is teflon based

February 5 2009, 4:57 PM 

i Know it will gum up and collect dust and dirt so for using it for airguns might not be a good idea.

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

I don't think it's Teflon "based"...

February 5 2009, 5:34 PM 

I think it is petroleum based with a Teflon additive. I thought I read somewhere that the base was mineral oil.

[linked image]

 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

either way...

February 5 2009, 5:44 PM 

I woundn't use it in MY airguns

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

BTW, Pellgun oil is notorius for "gumming up"...

February 5 2009, 6:35 PM 

it's commonly referred to as "Pell GUM" oil.

I've been running Tri-flow in my RC helicopters for 2 years and it hasn't gummed yet or deteriorated ANY plastic parts which make up 75+ % of the aircraft or O-rings in my Crosmans,it actually seems to be more of a solvent and flushs junk out of the parts.

Just my anedotal observations.

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by bigbore from IP address 151.124.247.200 on Feb 5, 2009 6:37 PM
This message has been edited by bigbore from IP address 151.124.247.200 on Feb 5, 2009 6:36 PM


 
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(Login airbethere)
4.244.159.213

Crosman certified airgun repairmen say use....

February 5 2009, 6:40 PM 

plenty of it! LOL

Herb happy.gif


 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

Re: BTW, Pellgun oil is notorius for "gumming up"...

February 5 2009, 6:59 PM 

as is tri-flow.granted my experiences are different than yours (with tri-flow probably)coming from 12 years in a bike shop.but hey if it works for You all is good,right ? happy.gif

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

So what is your experience...

February 5 2009, 7:46 PM 

seriously, I am always willing to learn.

I have nothing but positive experiences with Tri-flow but if you have more experience with the product I'm happy to defer.

What is your experience using Tri-Flow? I'm not being sarcastic. Tim at Mac-1 has commented many times about the fact that there are better lubes and that he has a very low oppinion of Pellgun oil. I don't always agree with him but I certainly respect his experience and I do agree with him about the Pellgun oil as I have seen it start to gum myself.

[linked image]

 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

i can't say which is better

February 5 2009, 10:43 PM 

Or what might be better.but this is what i know about tri-flow and it gumming up.mechanics would lube cables (mostly mountain bikes)so shifting and braking would be smoother.sure maybe at first but the lube would then get gummy and eventually be counter productive .once gummy - dirt and dust will adhere to it making it worse.so it is best not use tri flow for certian applications.there is more but again I would not use it on seals,BUT i do use tri-flow for the pivot points on my 3 13xx .so again "I" not would use tri-flow.but between WD-40 and tri-flow ---- tri-flow fer shur.in a pinch sure.As said before if it works for YOU then have at it.inexpensive guns = inexpensive parts = easily replaceable if needed right?maybe tri-flow is better than pellgun oil or atf,etc.....i am NO expert on airguns.so it is just my 2 cents worth(or moar).


    
This message has been edited by justjohnny from IP address 65.96.53.78 on Feb 6, 2009 3:26 AM


 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
65.13.53.171

Cables are supposed to be dry lubed...

February 5 2009, 11:17 PM 

for the reasons you stated, so as not to collect dirt, you wouldn't put Pellgun oil in a cable either.


I think Tri-Flow is better than Pellgun oil and have never heard a compelling reason to think otherwise, but I'm listening. wink.gif

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by bigbore from IP address 65.13.53.171 on Feb 5, 2009 11:19 PM


 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

i know that

February 6 2009, 2:50 AM 

still doesn't deny the Fact that it gums up.your gun your choice.my gun my choice. as fa and bio said certian additives can harm different materials .you can run into the same types of problems with grease. my thinking is the right tool for the job .would you use a hammer for a screw driver ?tri-flow has a place but not on MY seals.


    
This message has been edited by justjohnny from IP address 65.96.53.78 on Feb 6, 2009 3:34 AM
This message has been edited by justjohnny from IP address 65.96.53.78 on Feb 6, 2009 2:52 AM


 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
65.13.53.171

I would only add the Pellgun oil is the worst choice...

February 6 2009, 10:18 AM 

of all the lubes mentioned, but it's better than nothing at all.

Mac-1 Secret Sauce is mentioned in a post bellow, that is probably better than Pellgun oil too but I couldn't find a reference to using it on CO2 guns on Mac-1's website.


My intention is to make sure someone does not avoid Tri-Flow because of mis-information. I've soaked two types of O-rings:Viton and Buna(Buna being some of the most fragile) for weeks in POOLS of Tri-Flow with NO adverse affects. So although I don't claim to be a chemist, I'm not just talking with no experience.

BTW, you keep claiming that it "gums", I have never had that happen. Under what conditions have you experienced this?

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by bigbore from IP address 65.13.53.171 on Feb 6, 2009 10:38 AM
This message has been edited by bigbore from IP address 65.13.53.171 on Feb 6, 2009 10:30 AM


 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

i have explained myself above

February 6 2009, 12:39 PM 

your choice to use what YOU want in YOUR gun(S).promote tri-flow as a good thing .ALL I AM SAYING IS I WON'T USE TRI-FLOW ON THE SEALS OF MY GUN(S).I DO NOT NEED TO EXPLAIN MYSELF .use it be happy --- let it go.


    
This message has been edited by justjohnny from IP address 65.96.53.78 on Feb 6, 2009 1:03 PM


 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

Eric, I was not confrontational...

February 6 2009, 4:35 PM 

but you continue to infer that the product with have an adverse affect on Crosman seals and after at least 6 months of constant use EXPERIENCE has not supported your conclusion. Add to that you admission that you don't even use it in your guns and you should have "bailed" from this thread long time ago.

Don't mislead the public about a product you DON'T USE, you've done nothing in this thread but elaborate on what you DON'T use it for.

I USE it, I've TESTED it. NO PROBLEMS. If anybody has something relevent to add to the discussion I'm more than willing to listen and learn.

[linked image]

 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

Hi Lon

February 6 2009, 6:06 PM 

As i said before "I" yes that is right "I" wouldn't use tri-flow and it "might "not be a good idea. again i need not explain as i have MY opinion as you have yours and you seem to think yours is superior .that is fine .you can do all you little tests and what not but I will still not use tri-flow .maybe ......... hmmmmmmmmmm......... because i don't want to.What moar do i Need .last i knew this is a forum in which people can share and express ideas,opinions,even heated debates over somthing as trivial as lube(tri-flow).sorry if you feel my thoughts and opinions aren't up to par with yours.hmmm....actually i am not.that said i will end this on my part.

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

Just the facts Eric...

February 6 2009, 6:34 PM 

It doesn't matter what anybody uses, use bacon fat if you like.

My point is and always has been don't knock it for no reason. Nothing personal and I'm not trying to be condecending. If you have some experience or unknown fact that it makes it unsuitable for use, please enlighten me.

Again, nothing personal, I think you're a good guy.

[linked image]

 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

so maybe i won't end this now

February 6 2009, 7:35 PM 

the facts are i don't know if tri-flow is good ,bad or indifferent.working in a shop has taught me to use to right tool for the job at hand.i am not defending pellgun oil,atf or anything else.as stated in a few posts lubes can contain additives which are(may be) harmful to some materials.certian types of grease may be ok to work with plastics but with metal very bad things could happen .so since i know tri-flow is ok for chains i do not know if it is ok for seals in an airgun hence "I" would not use it. your tests with seals sitting in it does what? do they float ,melt ? or are they 100% A Okay?how about in a real life enviroment - say in the gun ?are they 100% and for how long? "I" do not know.plenty has been said about pellgun oil and what is and what is similar.lots of different people using different things with good success.i am not knocking you for using tri-flow.what i am stating however is "I" don't think it is a good idea(my opinion) and "I" dont use it on MY seals. so with that use whatever works for you be it tri-flow ,atf, pellgun oil or others mentioned here,there or any where happy.gif.Lon, yer not a bad guy yerself

 
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Doug Owen
(Login DKOwen)
Crosman Forum Member
24.130.132.149

My reason for avoiding Tri-flow

February 6 2009, 1:47 PM 

Aside from having the very sorts of solvents we're trying to avoid, I'm worried about the PTFE. Suspended solids (like the Teflon) are not the sort of stuff I want in places like valve seats.

I understand that most any oil can gum up over time if there's a lot of it, but you're not supposed to be putting very much oil in there at all. A very thin film (not a big drop) on the face of a powerlet from time to time (not every one) should be plenty to keep the face seal working.

And I think ATF is way to thin for the job, even if it's of a type that won't cause problems with the mineral oil already in the gun. ATF is OK with rubber seals (of course) but is full of surficants, anti foaming agents and all sorts of other stuff we don't want. It's optimised for it's friction and cooling properties, stuff we don't care about (not sealing and lubricating like we want). It seems to me that only three things it has going for it are it's easy to find, doesn't wreck stuff right off and is the same color as Pellgun oil.

'OK with seals' can't be the only test, tap water is OK with seals.

The point is, the maker recommends ND 30 weight mineral oil and sells it for use in their guns:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/message/1088186527/Pellgunoil

So, I wouldn't use Tri-flow because of some of the solvent stuff I don't want but more importantly it has solid stuff in there that I could see causing problems on valve seats. And besides which, ND 30 is way cheaper.

If it's too much trouble to look for ND 30, fine. Just order three bucks worth of Pellgun oil next time you order stuff. Your gun can live off the factory lube for a little while until you get it. I just wouldn't ignore it until I had a leak and had to 'find something else' or wait on shooting.

Doug Owen

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

2 things Doug...

February 6 2009, 4:19 PM 

put a drop of Tri-Flow on the tip of your index finger, now rub it with your thumb, you won't feel any particles. the PTFE particles are so fine they're probably measured in microns. I've used a lot of Tri-Flow on guns and my RC helicopters without any degradation of rubbers or plastics. Tri-Flow doesn't seem to have any harsh solvents that I've EXPERIENCED FROM USE. I even stated that I have soaked(in a pool, not a drop or two) O-rings in it for weeks with no adverse affects.

You stated 30W "mineral" oil in your post, you mean "motor" oil right?

I've made my case as have all others. happy.gif

[linked image]

 
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fa
(Login Fidel_in_PR)
Crosman Forum Member
72.50.117.65

that is exactly what I felt 30wt oil would do: gum up eventually

February 5 2009, 7:29 PM 

... as it's much thicker than ATF ...

 
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Doug Owen
(Login DKOwen)
Crosman Forum Member
24.130.132.149

So don't use so much.....

February 6 2009, 1:54 PM 

Guys get guns gummed up with way way more oil than needed. A small amount of the right weight oil should keep stuff damp enough for sealing and corrosion control with the excess eventually being blow out.

And it seems 'not unreasonable' to strip and clean and reseal an often used gun every few decades.

AFT is just too thin. If Crosman thought thin was a good idea, they'd be selling SAE 10 weight oil as Pellgun oil, they have that option.

Doug Owen

 
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(Login Biohazardman)
Moderator
71.59.249.34

Re: Substitute for Pellgun Oil

February 5 2009, 11:05 PM 

http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/search?searchterm=oil&sort=date

One very well discussed subject. It all boils down to compatability with the seals in the gun you are using. Many types of rubber do not take kindly to some solvents and will degrade and swell or melt like the wicked witch when hit with water. ;^) The better rubber is somewhat resistant to many solvents. I used some very high solvent based oil for years on my Crosmans before I new better. Now I am very careful and just use whatever is the handiest at the moment and as yet have had no problems.

I used to have a life. But now I have the forum. I am a sick man?

[linked image]

 
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(Login BenBenson)
Crosman Forum Member
98.23.22.225

ok

February 5 2009, 11:08 PM 

Thanks for the info. What do you recommend for the 2240?


    
This message has been edited by BenBenson from IP address 98.23.22.225 on Feb 5, 2009 11:09 PM


 
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(Login Biohazardman)
Moderator
71.59.249.34

What Crosman recommends...

February 6 2009, 8:18 PM 

naturally. As stated I have used the bad oils Marvel oil which is chocked full of sovents and likely not good for rubber seals as well as Three in one and Rem oil also I am bad? Oil should be low to no solvent based for the longetvity of the seals. Non detergent 30 wt motor oil and newer ATF fluids should be good from what I have read but for the amount you are going to need a little tube of Pellgun oil will last many years. If you screw up parts are usually available and always cheap.

I used to have a life. But now I have the forum. I am a sick man?

[linked image]

 
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(Login duhuh)
Crosman Forum Member
75.104.139.148

Mac 1 Secret Sauce is a good substitute.

February 6 2009, 7:43 AM 

Tim always has it in stock, I believe, and it is cheap. It is supposed to not gum up the valves like pellgun oil and is great on pumpers. Get a couple bottles and it will last for a loooong time.

Bob in WV

Never get in a hurry, it only slows you down.

 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
65.13.53.171

Actually Bob, my single bottle has lasted years...

February 6 2009, 10:20 AM 

a little goes a long way. wink.gif

[linked image]


    
This message has been edited by bigbore from IP address 65.13.53.171 on Feb 6, 2009 10:20 AM


 
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eric
(Login justjohnny)
Crosman Forum Member
65.96.53.78

then why are you using tri-flow ?

February 6 2009, 12:18 PM 


 
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(Login bigbore)
Crosman Forum Member
151.124.247.200

I use it as Mac-1 recomends...

February 6 2009, 4:30 PM 

in a pumper, my 1400.

[linked image]

 
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Aramis Monteiro
(Login Limator)
Crosman Forum Member
189.7.6.28

Re: Substitute for Pellgun Oil

February 6 2009, 3:36 PM 

I've just asked almost the same question a couple of days ago and bought this - http://www.airgunsmith.com/gunlube/airgun_lube.htm.>

[IMG][linked image][/IMG]

[]īs Aramis



Crosman 1377+mods
IZH46-M
CBC Std 4,5mm

 
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