Makes me glad that I used compressed breathing air for filling my pcps!

Regards,

Tony

http://www.network54.com/Forum/581291/thread/1246550661/I+was+fixing+a+customer%27s+Discovery+and....

Gee, I guess Tim and I might not have been making this up after all?

I gotta wonder why it's only at that spot. Maybe it was stored nose down (like the horizontal storage gave my Career a rust line along the bottom of the tube)? I suspect Tim's advice about a light coat of grease has merit. For myself I'm glad I use tank air.

This is, of course, one of the reasons why SCUBA tanks get visuals every year...... A drop or two of water in there and you have rust problems.

Seems to me a speck of that rust could foul the valve big time if it got loose?

Thanks for the 'heads up'.

Doug Owen

experience using a hand pump on his gun and moisture...

Regards,

Tony

If that rust got thick enough for it to flake off it would certainly ruin the valve and render the gun inoperable.

Bob in WV

Never get in a hurry, it only slows you down.

Naturally I'd rather have 4500psi tank for more fills but either way, a fill tank with breathable air is better than a pump!

Regards,

Tony

play nice!

Some of the aircanes I've pulled the valve out of have some pretty hideous corrosion inside. It cracks me up when guys get on here and wax eloquent about the few years they have been pumping. Try 200 years. Rust never sleeps. Corrosion is a fact of life. It will not be denied.
I've worked on about every airgun that ever has been pumped with atmosphere and I stand by my comments.
Heavy users in humid climates using pumps as a primary airsource are most at risk of corrosion.
This week I took apart an 8 month old Sheridan Steroid that was not holding properly. Upon examination the Valve body outer oring was blown. First one I'd seen with the upgraded Viton orings I use. The failure could be traced to corrosion of the alluminum valve body at the oring groove which subsequently created a pathway for air that made the oring fail.
Corrosion was present inside & outside of the valve. This gun had been used heavily and was pumped to 14 times every shot.
Steel is not the only metal that corrodes. When moisture is present in a system without adequate lubricant to displace it and take it out with the air each shot it starts to work on the metal and the moisture can create some pretty acidic residue. Just like a car that is not brought to full temperature each running cycle the acidity of the lubricant can be pretty harsh on the internals.
Discos have alluminum valves just like the new Sheridan/Benjamins and there is a lot of raw alluminum in pumps as well. One of the reasons I anodize all the allumnum parts I use is because that puts a hard shell on the surface of the metal and will resist the corrosion raw alluminum is prone to.
Put raw steel or raw alluminum is an acidic envioronment and corrosion is accelerated several fold.
I fixed the Sheridan for free as I always do even tho the factory warrantee was voided by the Steroid conversion. It is still totally covered by Mac1. If the gun had been ACP modified I would have voided his Mac1 warranty and charged him for the repair. I'm not going to back someone elses work. You'de think that with the extreme cost of an ACP, that there would be some sort of backing from the converter but I will not stand behind someone elses work. Few mechanics use the quality materials that are required to get the longievity we expect. Just FYI.
My recomendation to the customer was to use pump values to compensate for trajectory rather than going to max everytime and use more secret sauce on the guide end of the piston so more lubricant flushes out the valve. The gun was used in a rather dusty environment and had lots of dirt accumulated in the valve. This we don't see in Steroids as the lube typically displaces moisture and dirt and blows it out with the air charge.
The guide end of a Dan/Benjy piston is manufactured with a porous metal so it can act as a reservior for the secret sauce so the lube leaves a film on the tube each stroke. We soak the pistons in secret sauce after they are remanufactured so the porosity is filled with lubricant. In this extreme use application the valve was definitely not getting an adequate supply of lube and my advice was to be more generous with the sauce on the guide end of the piston.
When you work on pump airguns that are between 60 & 200 years old you see stuff the average user with a 2 year old Benjy will not. Discos have only been available for a few years and if you take that level of corrosion out to 20-30 years you have a problem. I always look at the big picture, the heavy user, the long haul. Those are my customers and I'm trying to protect their investment.
Everyone sells pumps but basically nobody services them. If I'm wrong please show me your hand. I have a few you can look at. I don't work on them because everone I've ever had apart was corroded to death. If you like pumps buy two. They are after all disposable.
I suppose if you turn over your airguns every few years it can wind up being someone elses headache huh Doug?. Sorta like the people who lease their vehicles and never change the oil. It is a disposable world we live in.



"NO GUNS WOULD BE A RIOT"

Later

Tim

Mac1 Airgun

"I suppose if you turn over your airguns every few years it can wind up being someone elses headache huh Doug?."

It is like used cars. You take your chances, you're likely to buy some lemons. I bought the Ultra as a 'leaker', thinking it was a seal failure. I know the original owner and am confident he didn't know what the leak was about.

OTOH, you could easily have just sold me a (very expensive) replacement tube and I'd never have been the wiser. I know full well that the $75 repair charge didn't come even close to what you had to do to clean up the problem, invent and build a fix to save my gun. Or you could have soaked me a bunch for a repair of the tube (trashing the finish in the process....).

I, for one, have no trouble at all spotting the white hats here. My thanks, recommendation and continued business follow that.

Doug Owen

"Everyone sells pumps but basically nobody services them. If I'm wrong please show me your hand."

Scott Pilkington does at pilkguns.com. I purchased a rebuilt hand pump from him a couple of years ago. Works great. Should have bought more as they were only $75.

Give him a call. He can tell you if he still works on them or not.

-----------------------------------------------

Oddly, no info about why pumping was so bad was given at the time though.

-----------------------------------------------

You don't really expect them to advertise problems that might come up, now do you? "Buyer beware" and all that.

Does make you wonder why some makers go to all the trouble and expense of fancy mositure traps if there's no benefit. Pumps have their place, of course. To me they make sense if you can't afford the alternative or need to fill in the field (although I have not problems with my AH CF 'Pigmy tank'). They do, it seems, have a well understood (at least by some) downside or two.

Good point about rebuilt pumps, however. Gotta wonder if you can have your personal one rebuilt, and which brands that might be?

Doug Owen

If it is a safety issue then I do expect them to to tell me each and every time. If it is not a safety issue then it is up to the buyer to discover, I suppose. I am unclear if it is a safety issue or not to use a pump exclusively. Seems the experts cannot agree either.

This particular pump is an Axsor. I'm not sure of the other brands (if any) that he (Pilkguns.com) rebuilt or still rebuilds.

-----------------------------------------------

I think it's a gun lifespan issue. When pump induced rust killed my Ultra it just leaked (didn't blow up....).

Tank air should not be saturated (holding as much water as possible) since it's delivered at lower pressure than the tank (the water stays there like in a shop comprssor if it exists.....which it doesn't in 'breathing quality air'), unlike a pump which by definition delivers saturated air (unless you strip almost all the water out first) with each pump. The water delivered with the first pumps makes it wet inside, each pump stroke makes it more so as I understand such stuff.

The makers know this, and make reasonalbe efforts to 'rust proof' the inside. Such stuff is evidently not foolproof (the better fool being constantly in development and all....).

You get to choose, but I don't think pumps are unsafe, just potentially dangerous (WRT rust and gun life). Expensive, not hazardous.

Doug Owen

I've been wondering if a drop of Silicone Chamber Oil (not pellgunoil) every 5 fills or so might be a good idea for those using hand pumps exclusively? That might help keep the metal coated so it won't rust.

I use a hand pump since we live about an hour away from the closest place to get SCUBA tanks filled.

Thanks,
A.R.

If you are talking about Beeman Chamber oil it should only be used in the chambers of Springuns with specifically leather seals. If your springer has a leather breech seal it can also be used there to condition and expand that seal.
It belongs nowhere else in my opinion.



"NO GUNS WOULD BE A RIOT"

Later

Tim

Mac1 Airgun

It would be nice to have some fluid that is rated for PCPs just for the purpose of protecting from internal oxidation. Maybe 100% silicone oil?

Thanks,
A.R.

The stuff for orings like Dow Corning DC111 would work good. Parker oring lube is good. SuperLube is a grease which is a food service grade product that would also be fine.



"NO GUNS WOULD BE A RIOT"

Later

Tim

Mac1 Airgun

on hand! Our local hardware store carries it. I appreciate your taking the time for my question.

A.R.

"In a word - control! You can stop at exactly the spot in the pressure curve your airgun likes. With a scuba tank, it's hard to stop at exactly the right point because the pressure rises so fast." Tom Gaylord ... © Copyright 2006 All Rights Reserved

Where have we read this before - even cited as a cause of routinely exceeding MWPs?

http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/hand-pump/

Steve

I'm sure this has noting at all to do with selling pumps or PCPs to folks, aren't you? Or maybe replacement pumps when yours fails? After all, you can't even think of fixing it:

"DO NOT attempt to disassemble the hand pump! There are more than 20 different O-rings inside and most are lubricated with a special grease that's not easily available. Disassembly of the hand pump almost always results in damage that cannot be repaired. Do not remove any lubricant from the pump shaft. This lubricant is dark and will stain clothing, but it is not moly grease as many people have supposed. If you remove it, your pump will soon fail."

More to the point, it doesn't come close to addressing the topic, rust in the gun now does it?

I think most folks are smart enough to figure out what's objective and what's not in such advise....and posts.

Doug Owen

Edit:

Hey on a second read I noticed this bit at the end:

"Why is the hand pump the BEST way to fill a PCP?
In a word - control! You can stop at exactly the spot in the pressure curve your airgun likes."

So, I guess it's about sales and control of pressure (not a big issue AFAIK, I mean the gauge on my tank fill rig is easier to read (bigger) and more accurate than the one on the gun or my pump (which I don't use....) so it's not about accuracy. Or gun life. Funny, he forgot to mention the safety aspect of not filling your Discovery to 2100 psi by mistake.....

Doug Owen

Doug if pumps should not be rebuilt why does AA sell a rebuild kit for the pump they carry and why wouldn't the manufactures build in such a way that the pump could not be opened up for rebuilding.
Gary

I didn't say that, I quoted Tom G saying it.

AFAIK there's no reason not to rebuild a pump designed to be rebuilt by owners (I guess most aren't). As to why a maker or vendor might not want you to do that I can think of several reasons, can you? (Hint, I think a lot of 'expert advice' is really aimed at sales and making money)

OK, or did I miss it entirely?

Doug Owen

didn't know you were quoting and I understand the money thing.
Gary

"Follow the money". It often makes things easy to understand for me.

Thanks.

Doug Owen

"OK, or did I miss it entirely? "

If you missed it entirely then I agree with you on a lot of what you just said.

A lot of what is suppose free advice from AirGun Gurus (Let me change that to some Gurus, because some of you are genuine in your attempts to just give out good info for free) seems to be sales motivated to drive us(the buying public)towards specific items at most times.

What is funny is that we are suppose to then believe the opinion(s) are totally un-biased. Which by the way, is why most of these self-professed gurus say they got in the review business in the first place. They wanted us to have a place the wasn't clutter by the market distributors so we could get good solid info. How ironic that the very thing that drove to review airguns seems to have slipped away in some cases. Agenda-based reviews seem to be coming more and more prevelant. Such a shame to considering how many people pay attention to who has what to say.

It is what it is, because it is!!!

The number of 'helpful resources' with self serving agendas seems to be approaching 100 percent in many areas. It's nothing short of deceptive....not the way you want your sources of information to be as I see it.

I'm not sure what you do when you're on the learning end of things except to hope that honest folks will try to set you straight? "Follow the money" so often leads one to a not so good place.

Still, it's better than the alternatives....

Thanks for the thoughts.

Doug Owen

and that is why I had to expose him for his dangerous practice of using Pellgun oil on PCP's. He also claimed while at Airforce repairing guns he did not have to use a chronograph because after awhile he could tell by listening how fast the gun was and he was very accurate at it.

No wonder so many people had problems with Airforce repairs when he was doing them.

If somebody can not open and close a valve on a scuba tank or CF tank and stop at the wanted fill then they should not be using a tank at all and probably stick to springer and MSP airguns.

Adam in SoCal
AKA WalkOnKing

http://www.talonairgun.com

That is way more than I've seen from a lot of posts here.

Sure Tom has his detractors, just like Beaman, and Tim M. And Crosman for that matter. Not to mention a goodly number of the 'minor players' in our hobby.

Each guy has to weigh the contributions these 'guys' make against the negative they see I guess. For myself, I see a lot of positive contribution without tearing others down in the process. I can overlook some of the (IMO minor) gaffs and self serving (to some) opinions. As I see it, they've earned the right. Believe them (and be guided by their advice) as you see fit.

Doug Owen

I think it's good that he retracted the statement, but how many people follow him close enough to read some of his stuff. Some may have no idea that he recalled that statement about pellgun oil and HPA? There literally could be quite a few people relaying that info to their air gun buddies that don't bother reading chat forum, blogs, etc. like this.

There can be no assumptions made that all those affected come to the internet, and saw the retraction in my opinion. That would be far from the real truth. Also, I know from a personal level there are far too many threads that I lose track of, and never go back to read the responses from. It only takes one person to not be aware that something changed to affect a few or better yet many for that fact.

One of the first things I learn about HPA was that: Oil or petroleum based products can flash under HPA pressures (3,000 p.s.i. +) and explode, so none of these products can be used to repair fill nipples that leak, air lines, etc.

I just went and found the retraction where Tom says he thought pellgun oil was a synthetic based product for year. What I found was amazing, in the fact that an expert in this hobby had no idea that he could of possible gotten someone hurt with the assumption that pellgun oil is a
non-flammable substance.


I took this quote from a blog Mr. Gaylord writes:

"First of all, I have always believed that Crosman Pellgunoil is a synthetic silicone oil. I had no reason to believe otherwise, and I never questioned why I believed it to be so. All the advice I have given about using Pellgunoil over the years has been based on that belief."

Let me say that I just recently started playing with CO2 guns, and before then while I'd seen advertisement for pellgun oil I could of cared less about using it, primarily because I shoot PCP/HPA rifles. But at the point I built a custom CO2-based pistol there was the realization that pellgun oil was needed. With that said I knew that pellgun oil wasn't a synthetic so I'm not sure how Mr. Gaylord made that assumption since he is not saying what made him think so in the first place. Unless or course he is saying that he on his own made that determination that pellgun oil was not combustible. Seems that it was not Crosman, or any rep from their faculty that told him based on reading his blog.

I agree that we are all entitled to mistakes, but when we cast ourselves as someone that has expert knowledge of a field I think it become clear that those people also have the obligation to make sure the info they put out is not something the will cause a failure in an HPA rifle or pistol.

Hopefully we can all get over taking sides, or picking repeatedly at the sore and correct the mistake as a group. My concern (as it seems to be with some others) however is how do you get the info to those that may never know there was a correction made about using pellgun oil in HPA applications?


It is what it is, because it is!!!

on PCP's?

Tinkerer,
Please explain your comment, "Its a petroleum product and might ignite. nt"

D R

Since pellgunoil is a petroleum product, and petroleum products are flammable, it might ignite under high pressure.

A.R.

good writers don't always have good advice or recommendations.

My personal experience with rust in the tube was on an AR6 pistol. I don't know if the prior owner used a pump or not. The outside was clean and bluing was nice. But the inside of the tube was rust dusted, not yet pitted into the metal. I attributed it to a combination of moisture in the tube and the fact that the seals were blown. So tubes will definitely rust, and on guns that aren't more than about 10 years old.

I have the idea that the metal will rust faster if there is no pressure, and slower if the tube is pressurized. Don't remember where that idea came from. Hand pumps aren't generally pressurized, so I would expect moisture to rust the pump internals faster than the gun. Maybe you mettalurgists, chemists, or rust specialists can set me straight on the pressure aspect, if I'm incorrect. Or if someone has years of experience with pressure vessels, then input on rust and pressure would be appreciated.

I have a pump, but only use it to top off and even then only when I am running below pressure on my carbon fiber tanks. Maybe a couple times a year, and I tend to shoot that air out in short order.

"In a word - control! You can stop at exactly the spot in the pressure curve your airgun likes. With a scuba tank, it's hard to stop at exactly the right point because the pressure rises so fast." Tom Gaylord ... © Copyright 2006 All Rights Reserved

It appear that Mr Gaylord has never used a scuba or scba take and fill gage setup, or else he'd know that its easy to stop at the correct pressure. He has to be kidding for sure with that mess above!

It is what it is, because it is!!!

...on the difficulty of charging to an exactly predetermined pressure with a SCUBA tank, due to the effects (e.g., heating) of the rapid rise of pressure they create.

"It is physically impossible to fill a gun to a given pressure and not have it lose some as it cools."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1246039134/Fill+cooling

Steve

This is information about what was found in one gun. Those of you who use things like this as an agenda to bash those (who for some reason) you don't like, please don't!

A.R.

nt

Bill Dempsey
bdempsey@swat.coop

He posted this misinformation!

"In a word - control! You can stop at exactly the spot in the pressure curve your airgun likes. With a scuba tank, it's hard to stop at exactly the right point because the pressure rises so fast." Tom Gaylord ... © Copyright 2006 All Rights Reserved


Don't look at me I didn't write it and copyright it as mine! You asked and I just found out how it all started. Maybe you miss the statement from above which might explain why you think he is being picked on for no reason. Wondering what the information/test were used to show that filling from a scuba tank is not accurate, and that a hand pump is the better alternative. Is this an indicator of a blog that has gone commercial?

When you're an airgun GURU that supplies information about them you just can't afford to make incorrect statements repeatedly imo.,
It is what it is, because it is!!!

Let's play a game, without peeking I'll bet his sponsor sells hand pumps but doesn't sell SCUBA tanks?

Reminds one of Doctor B, ever the tireless champion of what he had for sale and quick to assign the mark of the beast to what he didn't.......

Doug Owen

Doug, I'm with ya when you're on my side, but I don't have time for you when you just using me to get your share. And reading the few excerpts that I've seen from some folks over the last day or so, there is no way I can see them as reliable sources for airguns related information.


That is probably why I don't read air gun blogs to this day. How can you be genuine if you have a site hosted by a dealer? You have to realize that readers see that you are bound to that at some point. Sure the new guy may not know any better, but its just a matter of time in my opinion before a newbie is able to tell that what is presented is not really in the best interest of the air gunning community.

As for Dr B. I think most realize that he was pushing his product lines, and we have to admit that he had some good stuff to sell. Even is it was a rebadge of some other product lines, he was the critic, the dealer, and the importer and we all knew it up front. That to me is nowhere near as bad as some guy/gal claiming to be about furthering the information available to airgunners, and then trying to sell us up the river for personal gain.


It is what it is, because it is!!!