logo by smgunner

Crosman999's Sheridan

  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

LDC, moderator, shroud??

October 25 2010 at 5:24 AM
  (Login petedrans)
Crosman Forum Member
from IP address 76.179.8.172

What does LDC stand for? Also, why are shrouds legal and moderators not? Is it legal to silence an airgun? I heard somewhere that silencers are legal as long as they are made with materials that would not withstand a firearm. What's the deal with quieting my air rifles? Could this get you in trouble?

 
 Respond to this message   
AuthorReply
Markus
(Login Markus2240)
Crosman Forum Member
92.74.254.116

Re: LDC, moderator, shroud??

October 25 2010, 6:57 AM 

In the US a firearm silecer must be registered (cost = 200$) to be legal. If you are sure, that your Lead-Dust-Collector can't be used as a firearm silencer everything is OK.

 
 Respond to this message   

dan house
(Login dan_house)
Crosman Forum Member
153.90.162.97

Ah, plenty of misinformation out there

October 25 2010, 9:00 AM 

Bottom Line is that if it can be transfered to your .22 LR and used, even once (and even if it self destructs when used, yet provides 1 db of sound reduction) youve violated the law.

Suppressor are legal in 38 states in the US. Check your local regulations. the process is simple, will cost you a set of finger prints, a photo and a police Cheif/sheriff/sitting judge of some rank's signature and US$200.00. Worst part is the wait.

Work with shrouds, they depend on the barrel for an important structural peice, and make part of it permanent to your AG.....

 

 



dr_subsonic's pneumatic research lab
[linked image]
the Lunatic Fringe of American Airgunning
Southwest Montana's headquarters for Airgunning Supremecy

 
 Respond to this message   
Phil
(Login Duane30)
Crosman Forum Member
98.223.200.6

In short, honestly....

October 25 2010, 10:11 AM 

...99.9% of people on the forums and off are indeed violating the law on this issue, period - no matter if you decide to call it a "Lead Dust Collector". I have spoken at length about this, referenced my sources, etc, etc. Even pointed out cases where prosecution was exercised and carried out. Again, citing my sources. Still, folks seem to think I am full of B.S. Trust me on this, I am not.

Airgun companies [are allowed to] moderate their guns by a very strick set of provisions set forth by the BATFE. The guidlines parallel that of the do and dont's within the code.

I have a class III...



"Well, I thought it was a rabbit but it turned out to be Bear Grylls in a rabbit hide."

[linked image]

 
 Respond to this message   
Doug Owen
(Login DKOwen)
Crosman Forum Member
24.130.132.23

Really, Phil?

October 25 2010, 4:16 PM 

I'd understood BATF didn't regulate airguns. Has this changed?

I also understand the the one case of conviction cited (Beeman started it, I think?) has been reversed. Is that correct? As I recall the guy was slime anyway, they 'wanted him'. Are there any others?

All manners of everyday items will quiet firearms to some level (pop bottles and lawnmower mufflers are common examples), but none are intended to reduce firearm reports which I think is the key? So, do you know any cases where airgunners were convicted of BATF violations for airgun use?

TIA

Doug Owen

 
 Respond to this message   
Phil
(Login Duane30)
Crosman Forum Member
98.223.200.6

I Know...

October 26 2010, 11:47 AM 


...it is totally absurd. I am one to agree that moderators shouldn't even require a license at all, period. Also agreed is that there are far more important things for law enforcement agencies to worry about than such legal writings and their [vague] applications [at times].

I made an argument with an actual BATFE agent in a discussion during a legal course about this issue; had written dialog via email about the issue with the agency; even discussed statutes established in various states which have provisionally changed the federal standards to their own likings what is considered to be a firearm, i.e. states that have made caliber and velocity ratings for possible human death.

My initial arguments, based upon the fact that airguns are NOT classified as firearms (nor is black powder weapons, moot point really) went as follows, paraphrased: "is it legal to build guns for personal purposes (citing the Cun Control Act of 1968, et al) Answer is, yes. Okay, "...is it legal to own and build fully automatic BB guns or air rifles?" Answer again is yes, only if such modification(s) apparatus doesn't work on a real firearm - not the methodology, but the device alone. In many cases owning the mechanism(s) for full auto is illegal in a firearm.

Now, moderators (silencers) are a unique little item here in the legal application. The rules about firearms and airguns are truly out the window now. Being that moderators are classified as Class III, which is a classification of a WEAPON, not a device classification alone, is where one has to pay attention. Being that they are Class III says it all. Sure Class III is only legal in NFA friendly states and jurisdictions, but one has to pay, of course. So, the use of an unregistered (unpaid) Class III is in fact illegal let alone making them - regardless of how it is used. Intent is a legal requirement; mufflers are alone missing the elements along a plethora of other items that can easily be converted. Airgun manufacturers that have integrated silencers can in fact do so since they are following the elements of the law.

Heck, just contact the BATFE and you will learn firsthand. Simply ask about air rifle application and explain yourself 'til blue in the face.

I am not shunning folks here, rules are what they are - I did not make them.


"Well, I thought it was a rabbit but it turned out to be Bear Grylls in a rabbit hide."

[linked image]

 
 Respond to this message   
Doug Owen
(Login DKOwen)
Crosman Forum Member
24.130.132.23

Thanks, Phil

October 26 2010, 1:32 PM 

I've no doubt it's not easy to deal with BATF. I've even got a couple idea of why that might be.....

But I had two questions, one does BATF now regulate airguns as your first post seems to say. I'm guessing not?

Secondly, as I understand it the only case of an airgunner getting found guilty of the silencer law was for a felon dealing in chemicals amongst other stuff (they got him for BATF rules like the Feds got Capone for taxes) and it's been reversed. There are now no convictions on record? You seemed to indicate you knew of others?

TIA

Doug Owen

 
 Respond to this message   
Phil
(Login Duane30)
Crosman Forum Member
98.223.200.6

You're welcome....

October 26 2010, 4:11 PM 

No, BATFE does not regulate airguns. They do regulate silencers. Silencer regarless of airgun application or not isn't the issue. The issue is that silencers are seperate entities all together. This is why things are the way they are.

If a rifle/gun company (actual firearms) wanted to do a barrel design like what air rifle companies are doing, i.e. shrouded in a fixed design or unusable otherwise manner, no silencer, Class III permit, would need to be filed. Hence why air rifle companies are able to do what they are doing with shrouding in the U.S. Now, keep in mind that "GSG-5" .22 cal had a massive recall due to their shroud size, etc. Essentially the BATFE doesn't know their own legal codes when it comes to importing firearms...

Here is the GSG-5 link:http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/ATI-American-Tactical-Imports-GSG-barrel-shroud-recall_1856-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

Now, German Sport Gun initially followed the guidelines set forth by the BATFE, but the U.S. changed their mind on the original decision.

The work in colaborating with such a federal agency is very time taking. I give Crosman huge props for dealing with the rigors of such a task, which they did in fact have to do in order to have their shrouded gun, the M-rod. This was a job for their legal team.

Yes, I do do know of a few cases where there was manufacturing of silencers...intended use was for airguns...still prosecuted... One such incident was right here in my home town. Credit, the individual wasn't a first time criminal offender, but nor is a lot of folks on the airgun forums...

"Well, I thought it was a rabbit but it turned out to be Bear Grylls in a rabbit hide."

[linked image]

 
 Respond to this message   


(Login plinkerton)
Crosman Forum Member
129.33.49.251

Absolutely correct ...

October 27 2010, 1:41 PM 

Any device that can be placed on a firearm and reduce it's noise signature can be considered a class III device. It makes no difference where it came from, what it's made of, or how long it'll last.

I know of one case where a man was charged with possessing an illegal silencer. The device in question was an empty plastic water bottle that he taped over the barrel of his .22 RF. The empty bottle alone is obviously legal, taping it onto the barrel made it, legally speaking, a silencer.

For airguns, in order to be legal, the device must be permanently attached (moderators that are glued on) or integrated into the weapon's design in such a way that it can't be converted to firearm use without extensive modification (shrouds).

Fortunately, the BATF doesn't seem to be particularly interested in the airgun community.

 
 Respond to this message   
Current Topic - LDC, moderator, shroud??
  << Previous Topic | Next Topic >>Return to Index  

Crosman Corporation 1-800-724-7486