Anyone active in that trade, please enlighten me:

I'm a senior partner in a Financial Service arm of a larger network and I'm doing Risk Management. The Partnership holds through special purpose vehicles controlling majorities of Refineries, which beside other products produce and sell Jet Fuel. Doing Risk assessments on their financial operations I have come across all kind of attempts to buy Jet Fuel through all kind of financial constructs but I have never seen them work. Consequently the Refineries only sell the Jet Fuel to the usual buyers on longterm commitments without funny papers from banks or ICPO's from anyone. The question is on my side, did ever anyone close a Jet Fuel deal through a brokerage? I have not heard anybody doing so successfully and fellow managers who are more in that trade tell me that they do not allow it, but there may be structures I do not know. Could anyone please enlighten me, you do not need to provide names but structures in general would be appreciated

Hi Richard,

The answer is yes, on REBCO & D2 only and you are right,

you have to have a control stake in the refineries and costomers

are oil majors with long standing contracts.

It is not a play for brokers.

Money Talks.

William

Jet Fuel is at most, 8% of a barrel of crude oil. Buying large quantities of jet fuel is a dream of brokers. The quantities do not exist.

Hi Surebob,

The type of crude plays a major part in the amount of kerosene

produced.

Ammna, Essider, Santa Barbara, BLCO, Chantek Manis are some of the

crudes that has a much higher yield.

You are right that 8% is about right as most refineries blend different

types of crude oils to fit their settings, base upon their customer demands.

Pertamina in Indonesia blends differently giving a higher yield of

kerosene, purely because their population, over 225 million, largely

use kerosene to cook. It is an educational process that the government

is trying to get them to use alternatives instead of kerosene.

Will

Mr. Richard Ludwig,

The JP 54 deals can be done through agencies without problems. We have quite experience on it but the key is to have a serious connection with Managers, mainly Managers from Huge Corporations like GAZPROM. Since you have the connection, you will see the results.


José Bueno
josebueno12@hotmail.com

So you are telling me that the managers at distribution are taking these offers transcendented by the brokers serious and engage with them rather than to sell to their usual buyers, especially in times of  full books? I'm surprised because that not what I see on the refineries SCP controls. Will ask the colleges in other outfits. If you do these deals, can you enlighten me how you work them? Since you are a broker and not the principal did you ever get paid? We have not paid a broker on Jet in ages.

The sellers will not consider your order if it is not including a standard package required by these huge corporations. There are going to be stocks, always because the present buyers usually stop importing for any reason. ARAMCO or CNPC are open right now, the commission split is guaranteed, they are not going to put in risk the reputation for some points in the price. Any doubt, contact me:
josebueno12@hotmail.com

The minister of energy in Russia does
off-book transactions for people who pay
him fees for so-called transfeft transport
to move the jet fuel to a vessel at a Russian
Port.
In the US, I sell gasoline and can sell jet
fuel shipped via the colonial pipeline system
almost anywhere in the US.
As for structure, discounts are given because
volume clears the back-log of the thousands of small
orders out of the way, because it is better to discount
than not to be able to move anything anywher. And
payments are in the form of BGs which further enhance
the bottom line.

Regards,
larry Martin




Larry Martin
Martin Galaxy Corporation
+52-777-312-1090

Larry,

You are the first bloke that make sense and it is true.

There is a lot more than meets the eye.

Will

Larry:

 

I have to concede that I'm not the specialist here and more on the administrative side, your argument makes sense but I do not believe you are using the instruments and wording I get delivered from brokers to my table. If you do transact in your business you are probably known with the principals and it is more or less a call situation, or am I wrong?

we do have those "direct" connections to Gazprom and can deliver D2,Mazut,Rebco and Jetfuel.

Dear Jippy2, please contact me at: agt_petroleum@yahoo.com with offers. Thank you.

Larry,

There are many people running scams asking for "Transneft fees" paid up front. This is not usually how the Oil business works in Russia, unless you are dealing direct with the refinery and have allocations.

This is something I'd be very careful of.

Manuel.

transneft fees, local taxes is not a common practise, and frowned upon.

They have not done this in a very long time, and it is for very small

cargo size like 1000 mt. and domestic only.

For a player to export oil, he must have a passport of transaction.

This is issued only after he has cleared all such internal costs and minimum

carco size is 50,000 mt + - 5%

Anyone asking for such fees for export is a fraud.

Known Jokers that have tried this are Alduke, motorhouse and Fimor.

Be careful.

Manuel,

You are right to say that thee is no upfront fee,

But you need your bank to issue a RWA and to conclude a BG

of XXX months value, and there is no such thing as allocation.

That is 100% nonsense lies from brokers.

I have oil and sell only to majors as I have never seen an internet broker

who has a real buyer, even on a DLC.

My staff has tried and when we check the buyers, they are all jokers

trying to flip the cargo and be overnight millionaires.

How many times have you heard that they rep for Sinopec, CNOOC,

or request for SLCO.

The greatest joke is that they have nothing, and if you are a purchaser

for a refinery, and brought a broker contract in, you will be out

of a JOB. The Saudis have embassies and ARAMCO offices all over the world

and do not need jokers to sell it for them.

Same goes for the Russians, and all other oil producing countries.

Money Talks.

will

same as the guys who claim to represent the Sultan of Brunai..........................

Richard,

Nice one,

heard from the Rumour Mill but( fortunately ) have not encountered them.

Will

Dear Constantine,

Sorry for my late reply, I will sent you additional info by tomorrow.

It seems that Mr. Will and Mr. Ludwig know everything on each subject, MTN,BG,oil, .....
Every broker is just a joker, only these 2 gentelman are the guy's with brain, and enought experiance to have the right opinion on each subject
I wunder why such experiance people are wasting theirs time chating with "brokers"

Probably because they like it.... it happened few years ago to me to explain few things to wanabee traders on a dedicated forum.... they reacted quite badly while learning the hard way.... even with my "good" advises...then i got bored about explaining things and getting back some bitter comments in return so stopped long ago and saved lot of time........ as will dothese gentlemen one day or other, anyway i'am happy with the few things i have collected there as what i take to be good advises...

Olivier

The reason why I poste has been stated at different times, do no think that there is anything new to say about that, the reason there is experience on almost everything posted here, is easy as well; as legal counsel and some decades of experience I've ran into a lot of different scenarios and hardly found anything new here but to my surprise a lot of people trying hard to make the same mistakes all over. So I post something. I hope others pick up the habit of saying something when topics come up they are interested in...........

yes that's exactly what i was meaning. Perhaps the meaning of my sentence was not very clear, i then apologize but i'am not naturall yenglish speaking as i'am french....it wasn't intended to offend in any anyway...
Olivier

Gregor:

I'm very far of knowing all, its just that this forum and its members restrict themselves to a part of the business that is very well known to me.
Working as legal counsel and senior partner of an international operating partnership, I've seen my share of trouble, fakes, opportunities, losses etc, whatever comes up and most of it is no news. I have stated often that I do not come here looking for business, but to have people make more intelligent choices. I know however that most people do not listen and need to make their own decicions after their own experiences.
That however does not mean that you do not warn someone that springing out of an airplane at 10000 feet without a parachute is kind of dangerous to your health. (Even if I remember that the art of flying is just to avoid the ground when going down, or the string theory assessment that there is a chance of passing through the earth, its just very unlikely).
I like to say that in a community of human beings it is the responsibility of everyone to participate and warn his fellow humans when he may oversee something.
Sharing experience is not something everyone does like because it happens that you experience is wrong and then for sure you have to listen to some other advise. That however is something I always liked. Public discourse through whatever medium is good to me.
Now since I'm under no pressure to make some business work so I'm not concerned about someone using my experience and knowledge and take over my business ( if he can do it better than I can, he's welcome to it).
Your assessment that chatting with brokers is a waste of time is wrong. I like people thinking outside the box, that however needs listening and engaging all kind of people. The percentage outside the box is low but every bit counts.

Good Luck!

Dear Sir,

I am surely not againts sharing experiance.
What I don't like that every broker is just a joker broker.
Like brokers are some kind of stupid , not very well thinking people which are making one stupidity after other.
This is the point that I dont agree with you on.


And of course there are many people who want to be rich in one deal and many which are not reliable, selling commodities that they even don't know what it is ,etc ....., I know lots of them. But there also some people which can do what they say.

Gregor,

I do not disagree with you and there are few who can perform,

but most are either too greedy or fakes.

The problem is that a lot feel that they can get away with inflating prices

and keep the difference.

Many under false pretext claim themselves to be the principle.

Asking for transferable LCs, BGs and not even sure if their supplier is

real.

I am not a broker nor am I a principle.

I work for a Trust and have had delt on numerous transactions.

On this board alone, I have steered several brokers, suggested changes

on the commission to a realistic figure and fee collection structure.

I have aided several in their quest and even advise on Due D.

I know that at least one transaction had suceeded and I am not interested

in commissions.

I also have had 2 persons that I have recommended to banks in NY and London.

I do admit that I can be curd and rude, but it is for them to self reflect

and at least get the proper protocols in place.

Be Transparent, Do fantastic Due D and work hard.

Understand industry protocols well, regulatory pittfalls and earn the

recommended commissions and sucess will come.

I do not deny that there are stray transactions available but those are

rare.

Out of kindness I have placed a sale of D2 to one broker and in 2 weeks

had the offer coming to me.

I even had a broker offering me a commercial paper, of which I declined,

as I knew the source. He was subsequently circumvented by his broker chain,

came back to me and requested for the information on the source as his buyer

was led round the bush by his broker chain.

I introduced him and his buyer to Goldman Sachs where the paper was and I

believe they managed to close that transaction with .5 basis points paid

to him by the buyer. (using a loophole in the regulatory framework)

I did not receive and do not want to receive any compensation despite

the effort I had contributed and I am delighted that at least he

understood that commissions are not +1 +1 in this business.

If crazy deals, procedures or improper offerings are made, several

on this forum will not hesitate to pour a bucket or two of cold water

on it.

There have been many instantces that offerings were in line with

proper protocols and no one here interceded with negativity.

Blessings

will

Hallo Will

Glad to see your reply.

As I see from your story, there are possibility's for brokers to make a deal.
I got from all your other comments the impression that being a broker and make a deal is not possible.
and that you thought that every broker is just a joker broker.

I do admit that at least 90% of the brokers (maybe even more) are joker brokers.
This are people who have only contact to other brokers.
Sometime I got in my hands deals with 30 brokers in it. (goes directly to trash bin)
and everyone of them found him self the most important broker and demanded the biggest piece of the cake.
and most of them don't understand why the buyer will not give extra 1 % (and surely not 2%) of commission to satisfy the long brokers chain. Most of them also don't understand that forwarding 1 mail is not enough to earn 100 million and that on some deal you have to work for several months.
I have enough examples on my self to write a book about brokers and commodities (maybe I will do that one time, then I can also write down my own faults)

The problems of the most brokers -> having only contact to other brokers.
It take a very long time and a portion of luck to get to the real sellers and real buyers.
and that is the most difficult part.

I my self do "only" diamonds, Russian oil and MTN's and BG's as I have direct contact to sellers and buyers (or at least theirs mandates) of these commodities.
but when I started i did also everything that I saw (from iron ore to cement) , and then comes a moment that you have to sit down and think what you are doing and when you look back then you see that you spent lot of time and money and that the result is a big zero.

Helping other people is not bad thing, but if they don't learn from theirs own faults and stay in the brokers network then it remains a time wasting activity.

Jiri.

Jiri,

I have bought a public listed company for my benificiary.

It is pary of a Poverty Reduction Program as is laid out

by DFID.

We have started a commodities platform with SocGen.

Trading has began and as of now, I have had several transaction

for Russian oil cleared at +$4 Mt CIF.

We sell at par or at platts.

THe so called broker discounts of $12/ - $10/ - that has flooded

the internet does not exist.

MOP/ muraite of potash is at FOB 297 per mt in bulk and

the joker broker price is at about $188/-

I am not unfamiliar with this business but to see so many

young men and women waste their lives chasing a rainbow,

is a great waste of resource.

I advocate that if one is through in the business, learn the ropes,

stay transparent, the potential of sucess is a lot greater.

I recently had a real qualified Joker Broker wanting to buy paper

from me and when I rejected him, started calling me names etc.

P Collins and several others had written to me on this issue.

Please understand, Business is Business and Money Talks.

will

We have been forced to pay those fees as a non-profit for our program activities that require D2. It is very political!!

I don't understand why all the inexperienced brokers that you see on the internet deal with the most difficult commodities. Every deal and broker has to include D2, MAZUT, iron ore, sugar in their portfolios. These commodities are controlled by multi-national, multi-billion corporations with offices all over the world. Why would these companies have a need for a lonely broker? In fact, the seaborne iron ore trade is more or less controlled by 4 of these large companies. Aren't there any other commodities in the world these guys can get involved and have a chance at closing a deal?

Can you email to me offboard the info of your connection who could deliver or supply rebco, jet 54 d2 mazut etc.