If a soft probe comes separate from an ICPO (Irrevocable Corporate Purchase Order), it lasts just 48 hours. If it's included as part of the ICPO, it lasts 14 days.

I'm telling oil buyers from now on to do me and them a huge favor and include that thing! One question though: Is it 48 working hours? If you got a soft probe on Friday, would it be useless Monday? Thanks.

Paul

a. all depends on the jurisdiction
b. hours are always just hours, no such thing as business hours
c. depends on the jurisdiction, but yes it could be worthless

Paul,

If what you didn't know about finance was written down it would make War and Peace look like a pamphlet.

You actually have managed to make Jose Bueno look like less of an idiot.

Kudos!

In what jurisdiction? Let's say it's coming from Paris, for example.

Paul

First you have not identified the commodity, you made a general comment on ICPO's and then concluded yourself to oil products.
Under French law the ICPO is not irrevocable (even if it says so) till it is accepted.In a commercial environment after 48h of silence the issuer can trust his ICPO is accepted if it is send to a real seller and not to a broker. That is because under French law the commercial seller needs to refuse actively, silence is stipulating acceptance. That does not apply to the broker received offer because the issuer knows he deals with a non-commercial market participant. However the problem is when the ICPO goes global, because handling can be different and than there are international customs, which differ from market to market.

Now for the soft-probe, that is an allowance of soft probing by the issuer of the ICPO, that is seen different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and an issuer which does not identify time and term restrictions is just nuts. If you shoot out an ICPO you say, "valid till xx month of yyyy 24h." Thats terms the open offer and the soft probing. In the absense of such every jurisdiction uses commercial customs in the prevailing market and since you are dealing with banking, the local banking law. There is in France no general law restricting the time but custom is only one probe and max a month, but most banks will deny access after 48h following the day of issueance, but notify the issuer and most likely answer positively. This however bases in intself how such softprobe is done. Banking in Europe is tightening up the rules and nothing you write in these papers will help you.

Now for oil deals, frankly ICPO's with soft probes are an almost secure way to have a no-go transaction

Well, as you say, Richard.

Almost.

Thanks for the answers as always.

Paul

in my professional experience there has never been a real buyer in oil and oil products who give out his banking data for a reliable soft probe on his financial capability, nor a seller who did that; it was always the case that the principals shared references if that was at all necessary, since the seller always has buyers at hand and new buyers either come through a reference or by direct call of the buyers bank; it is not that someone needs to reinvent anything, the players are all known. There may be brokerage deals which use below market rates but even there I never seen a go where the principals would not be able to identify performance details without a soft probe. In todays world exposing your data to a brokerage world seems almost gross negligent, at least banks treat it that way when damages occure and ah, an engament in soft probes on commodities deals which end up as simple money laundering schemes is deemed participation (at least in your part of the world) and can have repercussions.

Sure there is always an exception, good luck!

Paul,

Richard is right.

In an oil deal, there is no soft probe and most real buyers use their facilities.

Payment is on conditional documents and title is key.

Honestly, how many knows what a PoP is and even high street bankers

do not even know the procedure to authenticate a set of PoP.

Will

Paul,

Ask yourself why someone would need a broker who knows nothing to help the facilitate a transaction that is not possible to even do without being a current player in the market?

I know you're looking for that magical payday, when you make money like its water. Thats not how the world works. What everyone on here is looking for is proof of money. With that on a piece of paper you can pretend to be a big man. Think of this though: if all these fantasies actually existed (money without risk, thats your favorite flavor) then Madoff would have made trillions.

You don't know what you're doing, you don't even know how much you don't know. I think you were right a while ago, you write children's books, maybe you should stick to your field of expertise.

ouch

I'm a little sick and tired of people thinking I'm not any good at anything I do. I ask a simple question, and I'm hammered. I say I'm really positive about what I'm doing, and I still get hammered. I am just as good at the businesses I chose as anyone else here, and my network is strong, and honest and far-reaching.

If you're trying to drive me off the forum, fine. I won't say another god-damned word on here.

I officially resign, but let me tell you something. For a bunch of people supposedly high-up when it comes to banking, most of you don't know one damned thing about being a human being. I guess you lose THAT ability if you're here long enough, right?

Paul

Paul

Your problem is when comments or suggestions are given, you don't use them constructively. You think you are correct and everybody else is wrong. Why do you bother asking questions then? Did you not hear the right answers?
All your projects border on the joker broker territory and you have to ask why this deal needs you to complete it.
If you don't know much about the commodity or the structure, the chances it will make you any money are non-existent

Paul:

Life is like a boxing match.

Imagine you go to a boxing match and you sit right next to the ring. You can see the fighters getting ready for the event. You see one fighter in one corner and you see the other fighter on the other.

The event starts and both fighters go at each other throwing their best punches trying to out box eaxh other

The event is over and one of them is declared the winner.

You hear that the purse for that event was: $5 million dollars for the winner. You say: Wow ! I want some of that. I can box (fight).

Then you contact a boxing promoter and without any training or knowledge of this profession, you ask the promoter to get you into the ring so you can box and make $5 million dollars.

We, the observers, start telling you: Don't ! Stop !!
You will get killed ! You are not in shape to fight anyone !

And you re-act with anger and start complaining that no one is supporting you.

My suggestion would be: (1) if you are young enough, start training. Get in Shape. (2) Learn the art of boxing, so you will stand a chance. (3) Learn as much as you can about the profession of boxing. You will be amazed how much BS goes on in this profession and last but not least, (4) Find out if you can take a punch. If you have a "glass jaw" chances of becoming a champion will be very low.

Paul, don't throw the towel and run from what you intent to do. Educate yourself. If possible, re-enlist back in college and take business classes and speak with a student counselor and tell him/her what you wish to accomplish. You may have enough college credits to go a direct route to reach your educational goal. Once that is done, then, the sky will be the limit.

Bottom line: There are no short cuts in life. Unless your last name is "Gates" or "Warner".

Best wishes.



Trb

Paul,

Your problems are simply this:

1. You don't know what you're doing.
2. You think that joker brokers actually have deals
3. You are unaware of what the term "market pricing" means
4. You close your eyes and are unwilling to look at deals and the players involved
5. You hope to win the joker-broker lottery
6. You refuse to learn anything from your many mistakes

We had another Paul here for a while, similarly, you and he both claim to be connected to real deals. Your only problem is that you lack the resources and cash to actually vet any of your deals. So you go with the "A good and trusted friend of mine" story.

You brought me a deal last year, it was a load of crap. Had you done the slightest bit of DD before shopping it, you'd have known that the individual you brought forward had been shopping his deal for years, and the reason it wasn't possible is that he had liens against all his property.

Your a clueless twerp Paul, stop fantasizing, stop joker-brokering, stop your madness, its not too late!