Please tell me if you personally believe Private Placement Programs, Private Trade Platforms, MTN Trading in any "high yield" investment banking is real. I request comment specifically from One Point, Richard Ludwig, G Kid, Private Investor and any friends of these men. I have been scammed a few times, and would like to know if there is even such a thing at this point.
Help me out guys. Is it or isn't it possible to make 50-200% per month trading MTNs?
Sincerely,
1622
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If you would like to participate in the trade as a private bank for a smaller clearing houses.. sure you can see nice returns for leveraged funds.. but the risk of being tied up in litigation going forward with no return and legal fees are also a possibility.
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How many pools with what percentage of pass / fail or how many successful trades verse how many do not close and you end up in court languishing with as a not so proud owner of . It is a numbers game like anything else.
Trading for basis points I don't see as an answer for the returns you are seeking.
Being the private bank for the 3 to 10 business days for the clearinghouse does have serious risks involved.
It is more about your risk appetite and how you would hedge against the risk through multiple pools of funds made available, there are no plus 100% returns in this world without 100% risks involved.
I am not selling or buying or offering any services to be clear, just pointing out the obvious.
Good Luck, JW
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So, Will, are you saying that "forward contracts, darkpool trading, and other good stuff" is only provided through the source you have mentioned on your post?
I beg to humbly disagree with your statement.
Regards,
P.I.
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will (Login clearverbiage) Banking Forum Group 220.255.7.143
Starting block
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June 23 2009, 10:23 PM
PI,
Every investor in these sectors started by having some track record.
If you have not fielded yourself as a sophisticated investor, you
may be viewed as a potential liability to the boys.
1622 had claimed to be scammed several times.
He ought to get his act together and learn from the starting blocks.
will
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I offer thanks for the many replies. I have been scammed precisely twice, therefore, my wording may have been too strong, however, twice is more than enough for one to desire to get their act together.
Academic facts are all I am interested in. No solicitations or business.
I will email the people who have requested me to contact them off board this evening (within 12 hours) If Will, One Point, Mr. Ludwig, P.I., G Kid or Eagle One desire to email me, please do so to 1622@safe-mail.net. I specifically request you six to do so, if you are so inclined, as I prefer off board also.
The questions and answers are meant to be academic. I am not asking for counseling either, rest assured, but professional discourse. (People on this forum believe it does not matter if you speak rashly, unprofessionally, etc. for the reason that they are on a forum. But this is not true. No one has an excuse for losing their poise in business or social business discourse. That is my opinion anyways. It's a free country... if you live in Switzerland or something perhaps.) Advice would certainly be requested privately.
If I were a truly sophisticated investor I would probably not be posting on a public forum, but I am not a liability to anyone. Addressing these things technically (information only) is the only way to address the issue safely and comfortably for both parties - the one asking and the one answering. No business requested or sought. Starting blocks sound fine. Please tell me what your idea of starting blocks are via email.
Dear Will, thank you for the link to the topic of May 2008.
Dear Will, I have no fear of being a fool, only remaining one.
Sincerely,
1622
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1622, personally I don't believe any of these platforms that offer these gains with full capital security. If it was as easy as the "traders" on these platforms make out, hedge funds and banks wouldn't bother with any other form of investing! Why would you run a convertible-arb fund, or a an equity market neutral fund if you could make 50%-200% per month with zero risk?
It is possible to make large gains trading MTN's, just as it is with any form of security. However, in "normal" market conditions, the vast majortiy of MTN's that have been issued have durations that do not give a massive sensitivity to movements in interest rates. This basically means you do not see massive jumps in prices. (BTW, i'm talking investment grade bonds here, junk is a different story!)
So to generate huge returns, from small market movements you need leverage. Stacks of it! Which of course brings risk.....
Now since mid 2007 the market could not really be deemed as "normal"! The credit crisis saw huge falls in the price of debt (ie MTN's), resulting in bonds trading at deep discounts to par. Screen prices on Bloomie were just very rough indications...you could bid 10 points lower and often secure the bonds. With the market effectively seizing, if you had good clients who were willing to play then you could make lots of money.
The deep discounts also attracted a lot of joker brokers, who saw a way of making cash by buying at the deep discount and trying to sell a lot higher, by basically swindling investors who were unware of the true value of the bond.
But back to the main point............
Anyone claiming to make huge returns on a short term basis should disclose how. When any of these "traders" is asked to do this, they clam up and come out with all sorts of rubbish about "it's against the law" or "we can't show you until you commit" etc. What sort of legit trader is going to refuse to show you how they trade? They don't have to show you the exact formulas or theories, but they should explain the basic reasoning. But they don't...because its all rubbish!
I would love to be shown to be wrong, but until someone lays out the strategies and shows some trade histories..........
(And as for the dark pools and off-balance sheet 5bio Deutsche Bank MTN's at 50+1.....what a load of BS!)
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Richard showed me their set up, the way they work and the results as well explained the risks and how to get involved frankly it was way out of my league, almost all the brokerage offers could be identified as bull and some even as attempted fraud from people who knew better, I'm dealing above 100M every day and frankly that game is not for me, the risk patterns, the possibilities etc are difficult to explain to my clients, even with all the rules on the table and public (sic), that game is for highly trained professional investors who deal with their own money and have a long performance history. All the smaller ones are just participation deals which need a license which is difficult to get (its banking!). Only guy who ever has been open to me and explained all the details over hours in detail has no space for me, and I rather wait for the real deal than to run around like a chicken with no head, only good thing coming of this I now understand why Richard is so difficult and how he does his business, on an every day level I would be running scared considering the risk and since it is my clients money I rather entertain risk which I can manage in my circles.
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will (Login clearverbiage) Banking Forum Group 220.255.7.241
Re: Real MTN Trading
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June 24 2009, 8:37 PM
GKid,
I do agree with you and yes, trades can be structured such but the main crux
is the availibility of quality notes.
The market being so, it is hard to organise a securitisation syndicate.
Exits are very slow and with the round on CMOs, many has seen their value
demenished.
99.99% of what is being offered is authentic 'bull pucky'
As for 1622, he may well be a wolf trying to get insights into this business
and start a scam. If he had the money, why hasn't his banker / dealer
approached him as yet?
No insults intended, but I do ot believe in traders of the universe theory
or anything of that sort.
This business is about making sound decisions, knowing very well what you
are trading and giving the instructions to bid, buy, and sell.
We know that BGs are not tradable, and yet I see many pandering it.
I was offered a Barclay BG with CUSIP.
Upon checking, it was common stock, and had a lien.
It is easy to pluck an ISIN from the internet and offer it around, and many
suckers will bite. Then comes the famous ' MT 103 Field 23' and we will send
you the note in seven days.
Even better, " We will send you the Bond by bank bonded courier within 14
banking days"
Dude, there ain't paper bonds on new issues. Try getting your brokerage
to give you share certificates when you buy.
1622, I have stated ere many a times that I am not here to do business.
You go by 1622 and for all I know, you may be Manfred Zachel.
If you've got the money, go open an account in a Bank Holding Company
brokerage. Request for the screen and you'll be able to download all
the prospectus and Term Sheets, make bids and buy all day long.
will
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Sorry to be last (someone has to be), but please don't think it's
for lack of interest. My wife had surgery yesterday (she's OK, thanks),
so I'm just catching up.
I think the answers that have preceded mine are all valid, and all these gentlemen
have something valuable to contribute. My take: there's no question that these
programs exist, although your return figures should be adjusted down a bit, unless
you're talking about a LOT of money going in (say 500M or more).
The trouble is that 99% of what's promoted (and it's not supposed to
be, so that may be trouble right there) is either an outright scam, or at least a broker chain
so long you can strangle yourself with it, usually leading to a bridge to nowhere.
You don't say how much you want to invest, but this is key. If you have 100M or greater,
these are not hard to find. If you have 10M, they're still plentiful. At 1 to 10M, very very rare,
and not recommended, because funds are usually pooled, aggregated, heavily leveraged, or (yikes)
moved into someone else's account. With 1 to 10M, it's much better to find a good managed trade account,
say with ETFs, Dow futures, options, even Forex, or a combination of those strategies.
Just set it up in the trader's security house account and let him go to town. I know several traders who
are consistently making clients between 5 and 20% per month. Not so awful, right? And no CIS, no passport,
no PPP-style compliance, no joker-broker sob stories, no lack of transparency, no fear of funds going missing, or
Feds suddenly busting up a swingin' party.
Trouble is the joker B's fill everyone's head with unreal expectations--200% a week on 1M!!!???--and now everyone's spoiled AND
scared to death. Lousy combo if you ask me. Hope this helps.
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I cannot express my appreciation for your replies. Very clear G Kid, Mr. Dracon, Will and One Point. Thank you sirs. The former two, very thorough. Thank you.
Dear Chad, I profess to not know what you are trying to say.
I have sent emails to the others.
Dear Will, rest assured, I am not attempting to learn details about what is true, so as to fabricate and lure. Your point is made well however. But, the majority of men attempting to educate are the joker brokers. The words said here have more directly told me what I desired to know than pages and pages of joker broker talk. (It almost leads one to believe the trading is not real at all.) I do appreciate the issue has been made more perspicuous by the comments of the men here. I do appreciate your pragmatism and skepticism, Will. (I understand that it would make the most sense for a man who is not a scammer to be offended by being compared to a fool, but why should I breach professionalism only to waste my attempt to gain information?) Yes, I could be anyone. But I value privacy, and have no intention of using my personal name except for business, and I am clearly not interested in business. If you want to befriend me, no problem, have my name, phone, etc. But for a public board, no one can blame me for not issuing my name. Send me an email, and I would be glad to become your friend. Any of the men mentioned are welcome to that, but that is a far cry different than asking a general question on an open board. (If I were a scammer I would use a name, a made-up one.)
If I had 100M I would be a sophisticated investor and I would not be posting on a public forum.
Dear One Point, I am glad to hear. I am sorry you were subject to the assumed stress involved in such. There is no need to be sorry in being last. I was looking forward to hearing what you had to say (you are logical) and your words have been clarifying. Please send me an email. I have seen you mention trade accounts more than once and I would appreciate talking with you more about them off board. Thank you.
To all, I was not scammed at 100M. I was scammed like most fools are, much below 100M (but that is not anyone's business - I did say I was not asking for advice). I tell you again Will, I desire to not be a fool. That is all. I cannot say whether any other fools have benefited or whether only thirsty scam artists are writing down notes from the words said here. They would have their reward in full.
Many thanks.
Sincerely,
1622
Mishima Kusashi
...is not my name. (I got you Will!)
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will (Login clearverbiage) Banking Forum Group 220.255.7.217
A Prayer
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June 25 2009, 12:53 AM
Onepoint,
I'll say a prayer for your wife's speedy recovery.
Blessings
Will
ps this thread is begining to resemble something out of Monty Python.
1622,
Many have written to me in private when they receive deals.
I have but helped, made some clarity for them, advise them if it
was fraudulent, and even for one guy, structure his deal.
He was transparent enough to get his bankers in Singapore to meet me.
There was another bloke who hit pay dirt but did not know how to collect,
I then spoke with his parties and got them to agree to an
'assignment of proceeds'.
I do not accept commissions nor am I interested in doing business here.
Many here can confirm it. If I do get to know you, I can advise, it it is
for free.
Just be careful and when dealing with Joker Brokers, take it with a ton of
salt. MT not short ton.
will
that is my name
email: clearverbiage@lycos.com if you bother
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I am not sure if the email I received came from "1622" or someone else. But, to be totally honest with the readers of this forum, the structure of the message was a bit too strange for my taste. Sure, honesty goes a long way with me.....but....pleeeeeese.
I will adhere to my code of ethics and I will not release the name of the messanger. But, as I noticed, several of the readers of this board, received the identical message, at the same time I did.
P.I.
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Dear Will, my frame of reference for Monty Python is Monty Python and the Holy Grail, which I found disgusting and I discontinued viewing after twenty minutes. I cannot see how this topic resembles it, but don't worry, this topic will now rest in peace.
Forgive my weak humor, Will. It was rude.
No bother at all. Email sent, sir.
I never did thank Workman for pointing out what may be obvious but was still pointed out immediately. Thanks.
Thanks guys.
Sincerely,
Blake
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I also received a message from someone who was speaking very personally. That was not me. I wrote a message to three men only and as a BCC to protect email addresses. My writing should match my style found here.
Sincerely,
Blake
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My email was titled: "1622 from Bank Notes Requests Perspective"
And I did not include my name full name. Only "Blake".
However, all of us received an email titled "IN RESPONSE TO YOUR NETWORK 54 MESSAGE POST..." which was very interesting. And likewise, no need to mention his name.
Sincerely,
Blake
1622
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Be well, JW
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