Reaver180 (Login Reaver180) Panzer Brigade(Germany)
Re: America in WW1
April 28 2004, 11:49 AM
Fighting for freedom and democracy of course
No, my take is that the biggest reason they got involved in the war is the financial issue. The US gave very big loans to the Entente powers and if they had lost the US couldn't hope to get that money back anytime soon.
And if you are interesten in the official version: The Germans sunk our ships.
It depends on who you are talking about. If you are talking about the bulk of the populace then it comes down to an attempt to fight the last war. People were sold on the idea that this would be the final conflict...that after this war there would be no others...that some apparatus would be established that would maintain peace. That was how the administration got the people to emerge from their isolationist shell...it makes sense...they would contribute to remaking the world so that they would not have to fear war.
However, when it became clear at Versailles that it was politics as usual...that we were being ignored and that the seeds for future conflict were being laid...the people decided to isolate ourselves once more and leave Europe to itself...hence the rejection of the League of Nations.
As for what the power elite; others said...asserting our morals etc...bankrupting Europe...which is complete rubish (honestly Koursaros). Economic ties to the Entente Powers were prominent...however several previous administrations had been attempting to get the US involved in world affairs to no avail...meanwhile many in Washington were worried about the expansionism of the Germans. Those were the primary concerns and this war was merely the opportunity for the administration to get the country involved. This is merely an extension of the policy line that began with Theodore Roosevelt (see also the Moroccan Controversy).
"The US gave very big loans to the Entente powers and if they had lost the US couldn't hope to get that money back anytime soon."
War profiteers...still has nothing to do with actually getting the nation involved in the war.
And no...the American people would have still resisted involvement in the war if Germany hadn't 1) sunk several vessels with many Americans on board and 2) sent a telegram to Mexico offering them our Southwest if they declared war on us.
Most of the Ships sunken by Germany had not only Passengers but also Ammunition on Board. This made it a military target, especially after Germany had warned Ships to travel to Britain.
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A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !
~~~~~The first part of the American Expeditionary Force to reach Europe was General Pershing’s headquarters, with Captain George Patton and Sergeant Edward Rickenbacker, on landing at Liverpool it was lodged with the 3rd Royal Welsh Fusiliers at Litherland. The 1st Division landed in France between the end of June and mid August 1917, but did not go into the line until November, then not again until January. The next divisions arrived in the order, 26th, 42nd, 2nd (the latter not until April, 1918), then the 32nd and 41st which were not fighting divisions. So for the US Army the war lasted eight months. When first in France the Americans were attached to veteran British and French divisions out of the line for training, the British eventually kept the 39th Division as a cadre unit, attaching it to newly arrived formation in turn.
Two divisions served with the British Army in Flanders for all of their time in Europe, II Corps of 27th and 30th Divisions. The biggest American offensive, The Meuse Argonne battles of September to November, 1918 used eleven divisions organised into the 1st and 2nd Armies. Seven of the supporting divisions were broken up in France for reinforcements. From the beginning General Pershing had stated that the American Army in Europe would not be used for peicemeal reinforcement of British or French armies but would fight as one entity within its own sector of the front. Laudable as this was as an ultimate objective at the time when most American divisions were becoming battle ready the need was for individual divisions to reinforce crisis spots, not large formations with essentially untrained staffs. In credit to Pershing, II Corps, as described above was attached to the British 2nd Army and further divisions to the 4th Army and the French (including the 2nd, famous for its counter attack at Belleau Wood) However, the American forces could not develop their true potential until after the German offensives were spent.
In total, 2,080,000 Americans served in France of which 107,000 were killed, 191,000 wounded and 5,000 captured. The high level of casualties attests to their desire to close with the enemy, but also their green-ness, and the fact that open warfare can be just as deadly as trench fighting. The last division to leave France was the first to arrive, the 1st. Division left in August 1919, demobilisation and recession continued and by1925 the army was reduced to 125,000~~~~~
Chongli: Your article left out the 3rd Infantry Division...so here's an article on its WWI service that I pulled off of grunts.net
The 3rd Division is formed
The 3d Infantry Division was activated at Camp Greene, North Carolina, in November 1917. For six months, the Division filled its ranks and conducted numerous training operations the Division set sail for Europe arriving in France in February of 1918. After more training in trench and chemical warfare, the 3rd Division, under the command of General Joseph Dickman, was ordered to a quiet section of the line in the Vosges sector on May 30, 1918. Those orders were changed that night and the Division was loaded onto trains and sent north to Conde-en-Brie. The 7th Machine Gun Battalion was detached and rushed by trucks to Conde. Upon arrival the next morning, the Battalion was ordered by the local French commander to continue on to Chateu Thierry. Their mission was to cover the withdrawal of French forces as they crossed the Marne River.
Baptism of fire
Later that day, the 7th arrived at the village of Nesle, one mile south of Chateau Thierry. Here the battalion offloaded from the trucks and established a defensive line along the south bank of the Marne river. 2 Machine Gun teams were ordered to cross the river. Under the command of Lt. John Bissel, the teams set up their positions at the first intersection across the bridge. Throughout the evening and into the next morning, hundreds of French troops filtered through the 7th's lines. At 10:00 AM on June 1, the Germans entered Chateau Thierry and approached the bridge. Before they could get to it, the bridge was destroyed and Lt Bissel's men were stranded. The positions on the south bank opened up on the advancing German's and exacted a heavy toll. The German's retreated from the bridge approaches. That night, Lt Bissel and his men crossed a railway bridge and rejoined their Battalion.
In their first combat, the men of the 3rd Division's 7th Machine Gun Battalion performed well. Unfortunately, they received none of the credit. When written about in newspapers back home the headlines read "Germans stopped at Chateau Thierry with Help of God and Few Marines" when all of the fighting was done by the 7th Machine Gun Battalion.
"Rock of the Marne"
A few days later, the 3rd Division was ordered into the line at Chateau Thierry. They were ordered to hold the line right at the Marne River with, as the French Commander put it, "One foot in the water". The Division held a 7 mile stretch of the line along the river. The 4th Regiment held a sector of the line east of Chateau Thierry and the Division spread out east along the south bank. At the other end, the 38th Regiment tied in with the French 125th Infantry Division.
On July 15, the Germans launched their offensive at Chateau Thierry. Their objective was to widen their salient that they had achieved from their May offensive. The men of the 3rd Division endured a 3 hour artillery barrage while waiting for the German attack. That night, the Germans began crossing the Marne in small boats and on precarious footbridges. The 3rd Division machine guns opened fire and quickly capsized most of the boats and destroyed several of the footbridges. The advancing Germans were forced to swim across the Marne.
After the artillery lifted, the German assault began. On the right flank, the French 125th Division was quickly overwhelmed and the French troops panicked and retreated. 4 Rifle Companies from the US 28th Infantry Division that had been assigned to the 125th, were left alone to face the Germans. The Keystone soldiers fought tenaciously but could not hold out against the Germans. Most were killed or captured. Now the 3rd Division's flank was completely exposed and the 38th Regiment was forced to reform their lines in order to hold the line. Lt. Col McAlexander, the commander of the 38th, ordered his Regiment into a horseshoe formation so that an attack from any direction could be dealt with. The Germans hit the 38th's lines with everything the had, but the men of the 38th held fast. Lt.Col. McAlexander continued to shift his forces to reinforce his lines and soon the German attack was stopped. They had held.
Meanwhile, the 4th and 7th Regiments were being attacked by 3 German Divisions. Like the 38th, the 4th and the 7th continually shifted troops to ensure that the areas where they were being attacked were reinforced. In one instance, the Germans attacked a section of the line thinly held by three platoons. The commander sent a runner for reinforcements and ordered his men to hold steady. When the reinforcements arrived, the attack had been repulsed but all three platoons were reduced to just a handful of survivors. All along the 3rd Division's lines, the Germans were being soundly defeated. Their assault slowed and then finally stopped. By nightfall, 800 Germans had been captured. SOme units had lost over 40% of their men either killed or wounded but nowhere on the 3rd Division's lines did the German forces break through. The 3rd Division stopped the Germans cold, rightly earning the nickname "Rock of the Marne".
The 3rd Division advances
After a brief rest and resupply, the 3rd Division crossed the Marne and advanced on Chateau Thierry with the 28th and 42nd Infantry Divisions on their flanks. Seeing that they were being attacked from three sides, the Germans began a hasty retreat out of Chateau Thierry. After quickly securing the town, the advancing Americans began to chase the fleeing Germans. The Germans did fight back however, often savagely. At each river and road junction they would turn and fight. These bloody delaying actions did not stop the 3rd Division but they did allow the Germans to get some of their heavy equipment back to their own lines. Each time the Germans stopped, they were quickly overrun and defeated. The chase of the retreating Germans lasted over a week with several battles occurring each day. After a viscous fight at the Ourq river, the 3rd Division was relived by the fresh 32nd Infantry Division.
The 3rd Division returned to their previous lines at the Marne for a much needed rest. Here they consolidated their units and brought in replacements. On August 4, 1918, the 3rd Division was transferred to the US III Corps but remained on the Marne. A few weeks later, III Corps was assigned to the 1st US Army and ordered to prepare for the 1st American-led offensive of the war.
Saint-Mihiel
The Saint-Mihiel offensive called for 16 Divisions to advance and eliminate the German Salient in and around the city of Saint-Mihiel. The 3rd Division was assigned to IV Corps and placed in Corps Reserve. On September 12, 1918 the Americans began their assault. Fortunately the Germans, realizing their vulnerability in Saint-Mihiel, had begun withdrawing their troops two days earlier. When the first units entered the city, they met only token resistance. The 3rd Division was called forward to occupy the town while the remaining forces continued the advance. IV Corps quickly captured Bois de Ramieres and several small towns. By September 16, the Germans had been driven to the Woerve plains, just a few miles from the French/German border. The 3rd Division was then ordered forward to occupy the previously German-owned trenches.
The 3rd Division was ordered to clear the trenches of booby traps and mines and to conduct patrols to eliminate resistance in the area. During the Saint-Mihiel advance, some 15,000 Germans had been captured and 200 square miles of French soil was liberated. The 3rd Division got little rest and they soon received orders for another large offensive.
Meuse-Argonne
On September 26, the Americans launched their final offensive of the war, the assault on the Argoone forest near the Meuse river. 600,000 Infantrymen advanced on the forest ofter a three hour aetillery bombardment. The Germans were caught completely by surprise with only 4 divisions in the line. After clearing the first lines, the American's hit three more German lines, each heavily fortified. General Pershing, the American commander, had decided to hold his experienced Divisions in Reserve and sent to fresh Divisions in the forst attacks. The 3rd Division was again in reserve
In the Argonne forest, advancing was difficult, The terrain was very rough and most of the ground was deep mud. By the end of September, the advance had slowed and was finally stopped so the Americans could reorganize. On October 4, the 3rd Division, along with other veteran divisions, was called forward to take over the adavnce. All along the front, the advance was slow but steady. The Americans were destroying the German positions one ata a time. On October 10, the Argonne forest was cleared. While most of the American army rested, the 3rd Division was ordered into the hills between the forest and the Meuse River to eliminate the German resistance ther.
The fighting in the hills was brutal. The Germans fought for each foot of ground the 3rd Division captured. For three weeks, the 3rd Division was in almost constant combat with the Germans but finally on November 1, the last of the German units surrendered to the 3rd Division.
"Most of the Ships sunken by Germany had not only Passengers but also Ammunition on Board."
Doesn't mean very much to the Americans on board or to their vocal and voting relatives stateside.
Still a bit stupid to send Passenger ships with Ammo on board to help a Country that Germany is batteling, while you declare your neutrality at the same time. And this at a time when Germany declared all waters around Britain a Warzone with any ship sunken. That was especially to all Ships with Ammo to help the enemy, while the German intelligence knew about the shipment.
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A German Soldier doesnt die, he goes to hell and regroups !
"Still a bit stupid to send Passenger ships with Ammo on board to help a Country that Germany is batteling, while you declare your neutrality at the same time. And this at a time when Germany declared all waters around Britain a Warzone with any ship sunken. That was especially to all Ships with Ammo to help the enemy, while the German intelligence knew about the shipment."
War & politics are hardly fair. While the ammo and supplies flowing into Britain covertly might have aided them...sinking those vessels and killing the civilians created the conditions needed for America to enter the war and openly aid Britain (and to a far greater degree than before) with supplies, naval vessels, and millions of troops. The trickle of supplies turned into a torrent.
"It has to be, Canada and the other Commonwealth powers did the most other than UK herself and France."
Honestly...without US assistance...the war would probably have ended in a stalemate if not a German victory in Paris. Both sides were reaching their breaking points and neither side really had enough strength to break the other fully...the Germans just had a bit more than the Allies...but not enough to truly force a capitulation of the UK as well as France.
It was mainly the prospect of millions of fresh troops and a large industrial nation that had yet to exert itself that gave the Allies what they needed to achieve victory...
So yes...America's entry created the conditions for victory...otherwise it would have probably ground into a stalemate.
It also opened up the trade lines more, which I think helped more than the actual American troops. Cause we Canadian's were, I don't wanna brag but, kicking arse ! Also we took heavy casulities because of the style of trenchwarfare
All I can say now is,
R.I.P. To all those who died in World War One, or any war for that matter.
What Devin said is exactly right on and was worded perfectly.The US enabled the victory conditions to emerge.Without US entry into the War,it would have more than likely ended in a stalemate(likely) or a German victory(possibly).You have to remember,these nations were almost white from the bloodletting and were extremely war-weary,before America even entered the fray.They had beat and beat on one another until it became stagnant.Although I'm not saying America ' saved ' the allies,they did indeed give them a " shot in the arm ",so to speak. Neither side could muster enough for a final push,other than maybe Germany,who could of exploited the window of opportunity that they had.
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