With all the buzz the blockbuster "TROY" brought, some mysteries surounding Troy remain to be sloved.
Who were the Trojans at the time of the legendary Trojan wars? They were not "Greeks" and they did not speak Greek. The Hittite references to Troy as Wilusiya and Taruisa - should be identified with Ilium and Troia respectively. A "Wilusian" king mentioned in one of the Hittite texts - Alaksandu - was quite similar to the name of prince Alexander or Paris of Troy.
A recovered piece of the so-called Manapa-Tarhunda letter, which refers to the kingdom of Wilusa as beyond the land of the Seha (known in classical times as the Caicus) river, and near the land of Lazpa (better known as the Isle of Lesbos). However this remains a speculative subject.
Recent evidence adds weight to the theory that Wilusiya may be Troy. A water tunnel excavated by Korfmann, previously thought to be Roman, has been dated to around 2600 BC. Hittite texts mention both a water tunnel at Wilusiya, and that the Mycenaeans fought a battle at the city.
One of the assumptions is that the Trojans were either an indo-european Anatolian tribe or an Thraco-illyrian tribe. Their dispersal after the Trojan War is attributed to the beginnings of the Etruscan culture in Italy.
Some other sources even speculate that Trojan tribes that fled into Central Asia later became the Turks. Mehmet the Conqueror, after conquering Constantinople, is quoted as saying that the Trojans were avenged at last.
This has got to be the worst propaganda i have ever seen.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
The only source,is Homer's Iliad and greek mythology.Other than that you can't claim what their language was or else,because no archeological proof has been found.
If one should beleive Homer they had the greek Gods.And in battle they used to talk to the Greeks.In what language?The point is that it is an epic poem,so it's not history.
Greek mythology says the line of the founder is from Samothrace,an Aegean island,located between the island of Samos and Thrace and Attica.Of course this is mythology,not history.
Emigration of Dardanus 1 Dardanus 1, son of Zeus and the Pleiad Electra 3 lived in Samothrace, but when his brother Iasion [see Demeter], who was among the most handsome, was killed by Zeus with a thunderbolt because of his love affair with Demeter, he left the island, and coming to the opposite mainland he settled in the territory, which at the time was ruled by Teucer 2.
Some say that this emigration took place because life in Samothrace, with its poor soil and boisterous sea, was hard for Dardanus 1 and his people. So sailing from the island, he came to the strait called the Hellespont, and settled in the region which afterwards was called Phrygia.
The Teucrians Teucer 2, son of the river god Scamander 1 and the nymph Idaea 1, was then king of that country, and the people were called Teucrians after him. King Teucer 2 welcomed the foreigner, and gave him his daughter Batia 1 as wife, and along with her, a share of his land. Those who are interested in proving that the Trojans were Greeks affirm that Teucer 2 had himself emigrated from Attica, and that the reason why he received Dardanus 1 with generous hospitality is that he was glad to see arrive new Greek colonists to this land which had but a small native population, and that he believed Dardanus 1 would assist him in his wars against the barbarians.
Dardania Dardanus 1 founded a city in the region that later was called the Troad, and lived there with his family until the death of his father-in-law, upon which he became king of the whole land and called it Dardania after himself.
Family of Dardanus 1 According to some, Batia 1 was Dardanus 1's second wife, whom he married after the death of his first wife Chryse 3. His sons by her were Idaeus 4 and Deimas. The latter stayed in Arcadia, whence they come (as it is said that Atlas was king of Arcadia), but Idaeus 4 emigrated with Dardanus 1, first to Samothrace, and later to Phrygia, where Mount Ida was called after him
Erichthonius 1 and Tros 1 When Dardanus 1 died, his son Erichthonius 1 became king of the Dardanians and the richest of men, as he inherited both the kingdom of his father, and that of his maternal grandfather. Erichthonius 1 married Astyoche 3 (daughter of the river god Simois), or as others say, Callirrhoe 3, a sister of Teucer 2. By one of them he had a son Tros 1, who after coming to the throne, called the people Trojans, and the land Troad after himself. According to some, it was Tros 1 who married Callirrhoe 3, but some assert that he married Acallaris, daughter of Eumedes 6.
The founder of Troy Ilus 2, son of Tros 1, founded the city of Ilium (Troy) that he called after himself. Ilus 2 went to Phrygia, and taking part in games that at the time were held by the king, he won a victory in wrestling. As a prize, he received fifty youths and as many maidens, and the king, obeying an oracle, gave him also a cow, and asked him to found a city wherever the cow should lie down. The cow rested in the hill of Ate, and in that spot Ilus 2 built the city which he called Ilium. Then he prayed to Zeus that a sign might be shown to him, and he saw the Palladium fallen from heaven and lying before his tent. Ilus 2 was then blinded, for the Palladium might not be looked upon by any man. But later, when he had made offerings to the goddess, he recovered his sight. http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Troy.html
The story goes on till Aeneas' descendants founding Rome.
Their dispersal after the Trojan War is attributed to the beginnings of the Etruscan culture in Italy.
There are three theories that seek to explain the obscure origin of the Etruscans. Their language and culture differed markedly from that of other ancient peoples of the Italian peninsula at the time—Villanovans, Umbrians, and Picenes. As a result, many scholars long upheld the tradition of Herodotus that the Etruscans migrated to Italy from Lydia in the 12th cent. B.C. to escape a severe famine. Other scholars have argued that the Etruscans are an ancient people, indigenous to Italy, whose customs are merely distinct from other Italian peoples. The third theory—that the Etruscans came down from the north through the Alpine passes—has been largely discredited.
A recovered piece of the so-called Manapa-Tarhunda letter, which refers to the kingdom of Wilusa as beyond the land of the Seha (known in classical times as the Caicus) river, and near the land of Lazpa (better known as the Isle of Lesbos). However this remains a speculative subject.
Recent evidence adds weight to the theory that Wilusiya may be Troy. A water tunnel excavated by Korfmann, previously thought to be Roman, has been dated to around 2600 BC. Hittite texts mention both a water tunnel at Wilusiya, and that the Mycenaeans fought a battle at the city.
ALP TUNGA,from Wikipedia site,where these parts come from,there is a part in the middle you forgot:
These identifications were rejected by many scholars as being improbable or at least unprovable, but Trevor Bryce recently championed them in his book The Kingdom of the Hittites (1998), citing a recovered piece of the so-called Manapa-Tarhunda letter, which refers to the kingdom of Wilusa as beyond the land of the Seha (known in classical times as the Caicus) river, and near the land of Lazpa (better known as the Isle of Lesbos). This remains a speculative subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojans
The other theories are all in the above link,which summarizes in:
Lack of firm evidence
Some other sources even speculate that Trojan tribes that fled into Central Asia later became the Turks. Mehmet the Conqueror, after conquering Constantinople, is quoted as saying that the Trojans were avenged at last.
Oh,so Mehmet was a descendant of Trojans...Uhhhh...Could it be that that site is turkish?
Link of your article please?
This message has been edited by U-BOOT on May 18, 2004 5:11 PM
The trojan war was the first civil war ever... You can make your conclusions with this phrase. Anw some turks believe that trojan were ancestors of turks just because troy is in what we call today turkey. Plain propaganda
Wow...nice site. THIS was the worst propaganda i 've ever seen.
And the best part is this:
"It was Anatolia; it was our country, which created this marvellous epic both on the battlefield and in literature, which it has since relived many times during its long history."
ROFL
Notice the fact that is says "and in literature". He is, actually saying that Homer was Turkish. Gee...i really want to meet the guy that wrote that crap story.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
This message has been edited by Koursaros on May 18, 2004 5:46 PM This message has been edited by Koursaros on May 18, 2004 5:45 PM
I have always been under the impresion they were Greeks as well
Dieu et mon Droit
Don't Cry for me Argentian...
The Truth is that were gona beat ya
With out Sea Harrier
Well Sink you carrier
and that's our promise
So keep your Distance
Pampo he mentioned making fan of the turkish propaganda...
Well, if you actually read the Odyssey and Iliad you'll see that Homer doesn't make any distinguishment between the two armies nationality-wise.
he divides them by tribe (achilleas and the myrmidons, agamemnon and the myceaneans etc)
apparently the trojans spoke greek and they worshipped the olympian gods which lead someone to conclude that they were greeks. that's the most logical explanation bearing in mind that greeks spreaded in the mediterranean quite early..
...as a matter of fact it is just as propagandistic and ignorant to claim the Trojans were Greek as it is incorrect to state that they were not...this kind of claims are neither true or supported by history...the Hittite name Wilusa mentioned on several clay tablets was most probably later derived to the Greek name (W)Ilios such as Truwisa to Troy.
Trojans most probably spoke and wrote Luvian, not Greek. Unlike the Hittites who had thousands of deities, the Trojans had only 3, but these were identical to Hittite deities not Greek; the well known Weather god, Apaliunas (Homers Apollon)and Kaskalkur. Please bare in mind, that the Hittites have constructed a mythology with a state pantheon already 1600 b.c.Although barely revealed, it is very likely that the ruling class in Troy were of Hittite origin, in view of the fact that Hittite-Luvian clay tablets were found, wherein a Trojan noble was referred as a “Writer”, a rank solely reserved for a member of the Hittite ruling family.
Trojans history is very confusing, but they are more likely to be Greek or related to Greek rather than Turk.
It was the Franks who first claimed they were descendents of the Trojans, to make them look more noble. Many other tribes like the anglo-saxons and scandinavians put forward such claims to make them look closer to the romans as greece and rome were thought as advanced civilisation at the time and anything from Gaul and germany westward thought as barbars. No one know for sure who the trojans were but they were more likely to greek rather than Turk. At least the west thinks of Trojans as Greek. Why so much pride about the Trojans, they were annilated by the superior greeks and were put on the extinction list. Don't believe the crap that you see in movies, Achille, Paris and Hector never existed, it's all mythology by the way. I would add glory to our celtic, germanic and scandinavian ancestors. From barbares to masters.
Some also point out at the similarities between the Etruscan She-wolf legend and the Turkish one.
Etruscans and Turks are the only people in the world that share this common original myth. Remus and Romulus saved by a she-worlf from starvation (hence Rome).
In a similar myht, in a great battle the Turkish nation was destroyed except for a baby prince, who was left to die in the battlefield. A lone she-wolf named Asena happened upon the babe and took him away to the legendary Ergenekon mountain range in Northern Siberia. Within this mountain, the boy was reared by the wolf to maturity where upon Asena and the prince gave birth to the new Turks...
Troy was a trading city and it must of been composed of local ansd surrounding residents and some Greeks from the surrounding islands. Most probably, their culture was heavily influneced or perhaps dominated by Greek culture.
Does it make them Greek? Well....
What was Greece? At that time, Greece was a collection of City-States that had a somewhat common language and definatly a common culture.
To say Troy was "Greek" would imply that it was built from another city-states as a colony. That, it was not. On the other hand, I doubt that Troyans called themselves "Turks or Persians". The next major cultural center was Persia and that was a few thousand miles to the east.
Some also point out at the similarities between the Etruscan She-wolf legend and the Turkish one.
Etruscans and Turks are the only people in the world that share this common original myth. Remus and Romulus saved by a she-worlf from starvation (hence Rome).
First of all,take this:
icon31@hotmail.com
There you ll find your alter ego.
Now to the subject.I don't know what Turkish sites write about it,but you see the Romans in strict sense,meaning those who founded Rome,were NOT Etruscans,but a tribe called Latins,hence the region being called Lazio till today.They actually went on WAR with the Etruscans:
The early people of Rome were from a tribe called Latins. They were from the Plains of Latium. The Latins were successful farmers and traders and they became rich and successful. Therefore, Rome from its early days was a rich city. This was to create jealousy and to bring the city of Rome into conflict with areas surrounding the city. In particular, the Romans fought against the Etruscans and the Samnites. http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/romulus_and_remus.htm
Among them, the Latins developed an organized society, which was the main source of the people who settled Rome. The Latins originally stayed in Colli Albani (the Alban hills, modern Castelli - 20 to 50 miles southeast of the Capitoline hill); later, they moved down towards the valleys, which provided better land for animal breeding and agriculture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome
See,i also give the links,i don't want to talk out of my ass.
So,my friend,you really share this myth with the Romans,not the Etruscans.
”The next major cultural center was Persia and that was a few thousand miles to the east.
As already posted above; the major cultural centre in this area was the Hittite empire, a powerful civilization that controlled most of Anatolia in the second millennium B.C. The kings of Hittite Empire were known as ‘great kings’, which suggests they were on the same level as the kings of Egypt, Babylon and Assyria...Troy as a Vassal of the Hittites remained in their close sphere of influence. The Greek settlement in Ionia (Anatolian coast) was after the collapse of the Hittite Empire in 1180 B.C. The Ahhiyawa (probably Homers Achaeans/Greek) had a foothold in south-west Anatolian Milawanda/Miletos. Miletos was sacked by the Hittites in the 14th century B.C.
Turks being descendants of the Trojans is just absurd...but on the other hand it is very likely that Trojany were not Greek either.
Some other sources even speculate that Trojan tribes that fled into Central Asia later became the Turks. Mehmet the Conqueror, after conquering Constantinople, is quoted as saying that the Trojans were avenged at last.
lmfao! THe best thing I can believe about what happened to the Trojans after their fall is possibly them being the Etruscans who fled severe famine. But I like to think as them being native Italians.
Mundine, get a hold of yourself, the Turks are not Trojans or Romans. I don't think they were Greeks, but maybe a people who were influenced by Greece. Now, the Etruscans did not found Rome. That was the Latins, like U-BOOT said. They built primitive huts around the area. This was eventually absorbed by Eturia, however. And then came the era of Etruscan and Greek influence. The people rebelled after Etruscan civilization helped aroudn enough. The Turks? They're not even remotely close to the Italians at all! The Turks are from an Asian tribe near today's Uzbekistan I believe.
‘‘Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.’’--Napoleone Buonaparte
The Hittites were Indo-Europeans,can we say they were Turks? yes and no, yes because Today's 'Turks' could very well be from the same blood as the Hittites, no because it depends what the meaning of "turk" is, centeral asian tribes who migrated to anatolia? then no.
So were the Trojans Hittite, I am not sure, but how far are the Greeks and Hittites, they are both ancient indo-european people of the east.
-------------------------------------
This message has been edited by DevanT on May 20, 2004 2:39 AM
Azzurro...no one claimed the Hittites to be Turks or vica versa...they were indeed indo-european, so were the Achaeans or the Persians who btw. had their origin in central asia too, just like the Turks...It was 1500 B.C. when indo-arian tribes settled in Arynam - Eran - the Land of the Arian...todays Iran...the Hittites were as far to the Greeks as they are to Turks.
This message has been edited by Levend on May 20, 2004 7:40 AM
"Persians who btw. had their origin in central asia too, just like the Turks..."
and so did other Iranian peoples such as the Medes,scythians and parthians. It seems for many years the land from anatolia all the way to Xinjiang provinance the people spoke Indo-Iranian/European. Now do I dare to ask, are the Turks from Turkey another branch of the Indo-Iranian/European group? The reason I ask is why do Turks from Turkey look like Greeks and Iranians rather than centeral asians? both the Turks from Turkey and Iranian people claim they came from centeral asia, but both do not look like centeral asians. Its very complex, I don't think anyone can answer these questions.
Heres a interesting paragraph:
"Hittite and other Anatolian languages, the earliest attested in the Indo-European family, spoken in what is now Turkey in the second and first millennia B.C.; and the two Tocharian languages, the easternmost of Indo-European dialects, spoken in Chinese Turkistan (modern Xinjiang Uygur) in the first millennium A.D."
The reason I ask is why do Turks from Turkey look like Greeks and Iranians rather than centeral asians?
Because when the Seljuks came to nowdays Turkey attacking the Byzantine empire,there land wasn't empty.At the end,the Turks mixed with the local inhabitants thus losing the asian characteristics to a degree.It's not a coincidence that the more you move towards the Aegean coast the more Turks look like indoeuropeans.
I only know one thing that the Turks aren't Trojans or Romans.
Other than that,the sources aren't historical.I ve read many theories according to which the Trojans could have been early Greek settlers as greek mythology says mixed probably with locals,or Hittites,or none of the two (according to a theory the Greeks actually allied to the Trojans against the Hittites).
One is certain,that in what is beleived to be Troy Mycenean pottery was found in the excavations.This could indicate either that the first hypothesis is correct or that they had so good relations to buy their pottery from the Myceneans.
The Trojans were (a kind of) greeks but with great influence of the hethits.
look the war wasn't a civil war like Pampos wrote but a war between the ""trojanic-alliance"" and the greek.
i use the term ""trojanic-alliance"" because next to the trojans they were 15 other Anatolian folks who join the war on their side.
it was a east-west conflict. Troja as a "vasall" of the hethits became support from them and the other anatolian (indo-european)folks against the greeks who came from the west.
the war was political and about economy...
ps i don't know if there is connection between turks, troja, china, aztecs, etc.
Why people keep calling me Mundine I do not get it
It is true that all the previous civilizations that existed in Anatolia before the arrival of the Oghuz Turks have been amalgamted into the Turkish one. The Hittites live in our blood. That's why most Turks look Indo-European today. But if you go to nomadic Turcoman Yörük villages in Anatolia or the Balkans, villages that are situated at high altitued plateaus and that have a tendency to never inter-marry, you will see that most Yörüks are slanted-eyed (like me ), tall (like me ) and blond (not like me ). I will not dwelve into other anatomic particularities of the Turks. Those other Turks that look like Arabs have more Hittite or Greek blood in them (lest we not forget that the Greek race has a fair amount of African blood, the Spartans are reputed to be very dark people).
In the same way Turkish tribes that never passed near Arabs and Iranians and passed north trhough the Steppes and either settled in Crimea or the Balkans have preserved this particular physical appearance.
Back to the Trojans. When i say that Trojans and Turks MIGHT be related, I am not asserting that Trojans called themselves Turks or that Turks called themselves Trojans, the same way that ancient Greeks didn't call themselves Greeks, but rahter identified themselves with thei city-states or leaders. Nationalism and national consciousness are 20th century novelties.
lest we not forget that the Greek race has a fair amount of African blood, the Spartans are reputed to be very dark people).
AFRICAN blood? That has to be the funniest line EVER!
The Spartans were of Doric origin. Dorians came from the north of Greece at 1200BC.
As for the Hittites, not much is known, and certianly not enough to try to create and links between Hittites, Etruscans, Turks and Persians. Unless someone can identify EXACTLY what happened to the Hittites after their collapse, from that time to now, we can never be sure of their connections to any nation today.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
This message has been edited by Koursaros on May 20, 2004 11:35 AM
Troy II (2500-2200 BCE) -seven building strata. Troy II represented a fairly highly developed culture, whose essential character was early Aegean and early Cycladic, as in Troy I.'The connection with the cultural centers of Asia minor and the east is clearly recognizable'. The potters of Troy II were conversaant with the kiln and the potters wheel. The second walled city suffered some kind of catastrophe between 2200 and 2100 BCE This is the level from which Schliemann removed the reknowned gold ornaments, apparently from IIg. IIg was perhaps destroyed by some kind of invading force although it shows no signs of cultural change until much later.
The early character of Troy was Aegean/Cycladic. I think it would be a good lead as to what was the next step. Mycenean or very related.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
Were the trojans greeks?, turks?, inuits?, mongolians? or even Scandinavians? well who knows, its atleast an interesting discussion. Clearly did the greeks and trojans have much in common in religion and culture and the trojan and greek history were for centuries intertwined in trade and war bound by geography as described in the glorious works of Homeros.
Evidence though pointing to their Scandinavian looks comes from this ancient antiquity.
Heres a Fair-haired youth, depicted on a fifth-century BC, Athenian white-ground pyxis.
The blond youth is actually the young Paris, the Trojan hero.
The reader can readily see that the fair Paris is framed by two figures with adult features, most notably beards, who are fully brunet. The identity of the one on the right is not known, but the left one, carrying the messenger's staff is the Greek god Hermes.
Does this mean that trojans and greeks looked different, maybe, but it could also be so that Paris as a fictive figure also had fictive looks he may not have represented the population of troy. It`s an interesting piece though because its so ancient.
lest we not forget that the Greek race has a fair amount of African blood, the Spartans are reputed to be very dark people).
Wow......how come I don't have an Afro?
I can trace my roots back for several hundred years and when I was young, they use to call me "to Germanaki" (the little German). On my mothers side, ALL the family had blond hair and blue eyes. Sadly, they also went bald...but not me!
Perhaps dem old Spartans bleached their jeans....err genes?
This message has been edited by SpartanBlood on May 20, 2004 12:55 PM
Yes kiziroglu, Trojan was was the first civil war ever so stop arguing with the "experts" in here. I except eveything from turks, like what someone said "spartans were blacks" haha. Anw is this the history you are teached at schools? Bad spending of public money
It is true that all the previous civilizations that existed in Anatolia before the arrival of the Oghuz Turks have been amalgamted into the Turkish one. The Hittites live in our blood. That's why most Turks look Indo-European today. But if you go to nomadic Turcoman Yörük villages in Anatolia or the Balkans, villages that are situated at high altitued plateaus and that have a tendency to never inter-marry, you will see that most Yörüks are slanted-eyed (like me ), tall (like me ) and blond (not like me ). I will not dwelve into other anatomic particularities of the Turks. Those other Turks that look like Arabs have more Hittite or Greek blood in them (lest we not forget that the Greek race has a fair amount of African blood, the Spartans are reputed to be very dark people).
The Hittites? The Hittite Empire collapsed long before the Turkish invasion of Anatolia. The Assyrians occupied the Hittite Empire and probably deported thr population away. How is it however that the Greeks have African blood?WTF?
In the same way Turkish tribes that never passed near Arabs and Iranians and passed north trhough the Steppes and either settled in Crimea or the Balkans have preserved this particular physical appearance.
That isn't true. Turkish tribes did infact occupy Arabic areas. That's why the Ottoman Empire held those territories (or are you talking about something else?)
Back to the Trojans. When i say that Trojans and Turks MIGHT be related, I am not asserting that Trojans called themselves Turks or that Turks called themselves Trojans, the same way that ancient Greeks didn't call themselves Greeks, but rahter identified themselves with thei city-states or leaders. Nationalism and national consciousness are 20th century novelties.
Trojans aren't Turks, no Greeks in my opinion. They probably fled to central Asia minor for refuge after the fall of Troy. However, the Trojan tribes assimilated into local tribes if my theory is right. However, the problem is, I don't think there is any proof suggesting that there was any kind of migration into central Asia minor from the coast.
‘‘Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.’’--Napoleone Buonaparte
Pampos when people from other ethnic backgrounds/alliances fought against each other that is no civil war... there were not only greeks involved in that war.
The reason I ask is why do Turks from Turkey look like Greeks and Iranians rather than centeral asians? both the Turks from Turkey and Iranian people claim they came from centeral asia, but both do not look like centeral asians. Its very complex, I don't think anyone can answer these questions.
People in Turkey may be culturally Turkish, but their ethnic make-up is also in large part made up of the peoples who lived in Anatolia prior to the Turkish invasion. It's similar to Hispanics in some South American nations, who are more culturally similar to the Spanish, but more greatly resemble Native Americans. Their ethnic make-up is in large part Native American, but their Native American ancestors adopted the customs, culture, and language of the Spanish.
The same is true for those who today call themselves Arabs. An Arab in Egypt is actually ethnically more Egyptian than Arab, while one in Syria may be more Assyrian, and one in in Lybia may owe more of his ancestry to the Cyrenaicans. The conquered peoples simply adopted the customs and language of their conquerers and became culturally Arabic, even if they had more locals in their ancestry than Arabs.
The American Marine Division has the highest combat effectiveness in the American armed forces. It seems not enough for our four divisions to surround and annihilate its two regiments.
---Mao Tse Sung to General Song, prior to Chosin Reservoir
I agree with your point Gyrene. The dominant culture imposes its language, culture and way of life to the people it conquers. Anatolia was not empty when the Oghuz Turks came in. Byzance was not a pure Greek empire. Anatolia was inhabited Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians AND local Anatolian peoples, who spoke Anatolian languages that were remnants of Anatolian IE languages like Lydian and Hittite. Those people didn't vanish into thin air, they were amalgamated into the newly arrived Turkish culture that was essentially a Central Asian one. That is why modern Turks look like almost eveybody around them: some look like Arabs (Assyrian, Hittite, Arab or Greek blood), some look like Russians (epsecailly descendents of Turkish tribes that used the Northern Route bypassing Transoxania and Iran), some Altaic (like me, slanted eyes, tall and fair hair), some Italian or Spanish (Celtic and Levantine blood) etc etc... But all view themselves as Turks.
As to the Spartans, there's a theory that Southern European and North African ethnic pool was the same. I am not talking about Zimbabweans. The Acheans also used a lot of slaves from Africa that they later incorporated into their armies and societies.
Trojans were not like the Acheans, their hinterland was Anatolia and the Steppes not Africa. Modern history will one day reveal more about what happened to Trojans (excavations in Troy proper are far from complete). But some litterature suggests that they left Troy by sea and land. The seafarers might have settled in Italy and created the Etruscan culture, those who left by land might have fled into Central Asia.
MIGHT MAY MIGHT MAYBE. Nothing is certain in Archeology. But the myst is lifting slowly.
who spoke Anatolian languages that were remnants of Anatolian IE languages like Lydian and Hittite.
Pure bs. You are saying that although the hittite empire collapsed at 1200bc and although we don't know anything about what happened to them after that, you say that they still spoke hattic after 2200 years, and especially considering that they were conquered by Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Turkish, they still retained their language. Utter bs. Same goes for lidyans.
As to the Spartans, there's a theory that Southern European and North African ethnic pool was the same. I am not talking about Zimbabweans. The Acheans also used a lot of slaves from Africa that they later incorporated into their armies and societies.
Theories do not hold any ground. Proofs ffs. Proofs. Can you prove that the southern europeans share commono bllod with libyans for example? Of course not.
A lot of slaves from north africa? Hmm, and during which raid or war or conquest did they get these slaves. And can you find in ancient greek texts any parts that say that there were a lot of black people in greece. No, you can't.
Trojans were not like the Acheans, their hinterland was Anatolia and the Steppes not Africa.
The Trojans were native of that part of minor asia. NOT the steppes. Archaelogy has found absolutely NO proof about that. And if it did, i challenge you to bring it forth.
But some litterature suggests that they left Troy by sea and land. The seafarers might have settled in Italy and created the Etruscan culture, those who left by land might have fled into Central Asia.
How about the FACT that says that they remained where they were?
So far tunga, you are full of might's, maybe's and if's. No proof, no fact. Just opinions. Either prove what you are saying or don't talk about it.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
This is truning into a pissing contest thanks to Koursaros and we diverge from our thread. But being called a BSer over and over again is not my cup of tea.
Listen to Arthur Kemp, a white-supremacist "historian":
THE DARKENING OF GREECE - CITIZENSHIP TO FOREIGNERS
In 411 BC, forty years after Pericles had enacted his law limiting citizenship to those of biological Athenian descent only, the law was turned on its head and citizenship of Athens was given to tens of thousands of foreigners who had entered Athens, particularly from the Middle East, with the argument being used that the city state had to make up the huge population losses suffered as a result of the Persian and inter-Grecian wars.
By this stage the racial mix of Athens and many other Grecian city states was beginning to show the effects of the importation of peoples from elsewhere in the Middle and Near East, and significant sections of the population had become darker than even during Pericles' time.
This darkening of the population (caused partly by the Nordic and original European elements of Grecian society warring themselves to death - and partly by the importation of masses of already mixed Middle Eastern peoples) runs directly in tandem with the decline and fall of Classical Greece.
Above left: In this 300 BC Grecian statue above, a Black African slave is shown polishing a boot. On the right, a Greek statue of a Negro musician dating from between the 4th and 3rd Centuries BC. Biblotheque Nationale, Paris.
The downfall of Classical Greece - the importation of non-White slaves. It was the importation of large numbers of racially foreign slaves which was to lead to the dissolution of the Classical Grecian civilization.
Above: Three pots, dating from the 5th Century BC, showing the racial types in Ancient Greece: One is clearly Semitic, another Black. These pots are on public display at the National Museum, Athens.
Above: A vase depicting a Negroid female as the witch Circe.
,Above: A double headed vase showing a Black and a White face, reflecting the two elements in late Grecian society.
Above: A detail from the mummy case of Artemidorus the Younger, a Greek who had settled in Thebes, Egypt, during Roman times (100AD), showing the change in racial types which occurred in Greece.
The gradual darkening of the Grecian peoples was noted by many famous Greek writers of the time. By drawing comparisons with the Greek peoples, the surrounding Nordic tribes were of fair complexion. Hippocrates makes reference in his works to the "long heads" (that is, Nordic skulls) of the Macedonians - while Aristotle made copious references to the fairness of the Scythians and the Macedonians.
The Greek soldier and historian Xenophon (430-354 BC) also made a point of referring to the blond haired and fair eyed Macedonians and Scythians in his book Anabasis, which described a Greek expedition against the Persians.
By the time of the Roman Emperor Octavian Augustus (who reigned directly after Julius Caesar), the Roman historian Manilius counted the Greeks as amongst the dark nations of the world, referring to the Greeks as part of the "colorate gentes" (Astronomica, iv, 719.) It is likely that Manilius was referring to the Hellenistic World in general, rather than the inhabitants of the Greek Peninsula alone, as many people from the surrounding areas had by that stage adopted much of Greek culture, and were linguistically and culturally relatively indistinguishable from the Hellenes themselves - as there were of course still Whites in Greece itself, then and now.
Another factor which influenced the racial make-up of Greece was the existence of the Byzantium Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire which drew all manner of Middle Eastern mixed types to the region. This process, which happened over a period of centuries, was to be aggravated by the Turkish invasion of Greece and the Balkans.
And this link is from a Greek morphologist Dienekes Pontikos, with some nice pics of typical Greeks:
This is truning into a pissing contest thanks to Koursaros and we diverge from our thread. But being called a BSer over and over again is not my cup of tea.
If it wasn't your would have just stfu instead of posting bs.
Listen to Arthur Kemp, a white-supremacist "historian
Arthur Kemp talks all the time about the influx of a lot of black people (or non-Nordic as he says), but he
does not give any evidence of massive interracial mixing between slaves and free citizens nor he does provide any evidense on how that such a massive influx happened. Was it through a war? Was it through raiding? Did those people emigrate in Greece, were they captured during a raid or war in Africa? None of these two happened. Immigration in Greece would have been reported by contermporaries. For one, none of the ancient Greek writers refer to any such influx. I prefer their version, as they were actually present.
Not to mention the obvious fact that since Kemp is a white-supremasist, he is preoccupied (to say the least) against anyone who might have a tan.
As for your second site, well, this sentence is saying it all.
"Racial continuity in Greece is striking."
And since the first assumption (massive mixing of Greeks with black people) is false and keeping in mind that the statement of Lawrence Angel is has somewhat more bearing than Kemp's my statement that you are just posting BS is certainly and undoubtdetly true.
And the cherry on the pie is this!
Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times, and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the East Mediterranean. With respect to Greece, he found that the morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages
In case you have not figured out what it means, i will make it simpler for you. The Greek population of today is pretty much the same with the Greek population about 4 thousand years ago. Long before the stage at which the massive influx of foreigners could have happened (5c BC). In even more simple words, the line is unbroken. Now...suck on THAT, moron!
CASE CLOSED.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
This message has been edited by Koursaros on May 21, 2004 6:56 PM This message has been edited by Koursaros on May 21, 2004 6:55 PM
Worthy of past Mundinian posts,Alp Tunga gave us his lights,bringing the info from the site of Kemp,well known racist that has the obsession of everyone getting mixed with black slaves...
Not only Greece...
Arthur Kemp is a South African white supremacist who claims that the Portuguese of the Age of Explorations were Nordics (while the modern Portuguese would be the "inferior" result of mixing with black slaves). Afrocentrist pseudo-historians use the same faulty arguments, hoping that way to live on borrowed European glory. Portugal, Spain, Greece, and Italy's heritage are under attack. This is the Portuguese answer.
By this stage, the vast majority of White Armenians had either emigrated, or had been absorbed into the overwhelming numbers of non-Whites in the Armenia itself, so that today very few original White Armenians remain in the country.
Armenia was therefore a entire country and people who were physically wiped out by the Ottomans, one of the greatest hidden genocides of the Turkish Empire
KEMAL ATATURK - A WHITE MAN CREATES MODERN TURKEY
Above: Kemal Ataturk - the White creator of modern Turkey. To this day there are strong pockets of Whites left in Turkey, mostly descendants of the Janissaries.
Prominent in the Turkish defense of Gallipoli was a young army officer named Kemal Ataturk - who was very possibly a descendant of one of the Janissaries, having blue eyes and blond hair. Ataturk then went on to seize power in what remained of the Empire, abolishing the Ottoman dynasty in 1919 and declaring the Republic of Turkey in 1923.
Ataturk then launched a program of modernization in his country, using large numbers of Europeans in this process. It was a supreme act of irony that a White man eventually led the non-White Turks into the modern world - a mixed race who had been responsible for the longest and most effective race war against Europe till that time.
Now this explains why all ancient Europe is mixed with blacks:
Arthur Kemp: I am 39 years old (August 2002). I was born in what was then the British colony of Southern Rhodesia. My mother is Dutch, born in Amsterdam, Holland, and my father's family come from Gillingham, Kent, in the UK. I was educated in South Africa, and have a university degree with three major subjects: Political Science, International Politics and Public Administration.
Poor man,must have had a traumatic childhood with all those black people around...
And more:
Kemp:I hope as first prize that some White country somewhere realizes that White civilization is in mortal peril.
I guess that was from the shock seeing Mandela President of SOuth Africa...
Thank God Masta Kemp is a pure bred white folk, unlike us poor Spartan black folk. Best yet, we's lucky ders daylight, otherwise we's could be confused with dem sheep, what with all that hair on our backs and bushy tails.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is not much to say about this phlegm of a human.
This message has been edited by SpartanBlood on May 22, 2004 3:48 AM
From now on, I will look for all the "right answers" in KKK and white supremist websites. Even though I just discovered that I am "partially black", I wont let my Afro obscure their clear view of the world.
Oh wait...there is more.
I read this site so now my view of the world is even better.
now you´re back, we´ll follow your good example Ghostfacekiller... hahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa...lololololoololololololololololollolololoolololololololollllllll....hahahahaahahahahahahahaa.
right?
Arthur Kemp is a South African white supremacist who claims that the Portuguese of the Age of Explorations were Nordics (while the modern Portuguese would be the "inferior" result of mixing with black slaves). Afrocentrist pseudo-historians use the same faulty arguments, hoping that way to live on borrowed European glory. Portugal, Spain, Greece, and Italy's heritage are under attack. This is the Portuguese answer.
Oh hell no! No bastard is going to ruin Italy! I will sink my nails into his flesh, it may sound painful, but you should see what I will do to Bossi one day.
‘‘Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.’’--Napoleone Buonaparte
OK forget about Kemp if you want. I quoted him to show you that there are such debates going on and that I was not pulling them out my mighty Turk ass.
What about those quotes from contemporary Greek writers, philosophers or Roman emperors, are they South Afican white supremacists too? (and let's get back to Sparta and Troy please):
"
Aristotle made copious references to the fairness of the Scythians and the Macedonians. The Greek soldier and historian Xenophon (430-354 BC) also made a point of referring to the blond haired and fair eyed Macedonians and Scythians in his book Anabasis.
By the time of the Roman Emperor Octavian Augustus (who reigned directly after Julius Caesar), the Roman historian Manilius counted the Greeks as amongst the dark nations of the world, referring to the Greeks as part of the "COLORATE GENTES" (Astronomica, iv, 719.)
"
The Trojans might have been ethnically connected to the Macedonians (both Illyro-Thracian tribes not Greeks). As for the Scythians that we Turks refer to as Iskits (Iskit is stil a very common Turkish name) they were the first and best known Central Asian nomadic peoples that collided with the Hellenic World.
The location and extent of Scythia, the land of the Scythians, varied over time from the Altai region to the lower Danube river area and Bulgaria. We Turks accept generally that our ancestral homeland is the Altay mountains.
A pan-Turkic theory has recently eminated from Turkey that seeks to find a Turkish origin for the Scythian language. However the vast majority of scholars in the field disagree with such theories.
Just food for your your thoughts, not candy to your ears.
You know,it's not your fault.It's Lunatic's who keeps letting trolls in...
You said you 'd leave Kemp,yet you quote us from Kemp's book.
Ok,then,you 'll find all your replies here,together with all Kemp's LIES.He even altered the colours from paintings and pottery in order to suit his cause.
If they were Illyrian and Scythian tribes, they wouldn't be included in the myths of the ancient Greeks. Myths that say that the first Maceonians originated from Argos, in Pelloponese, and they emigrated to Macedonia. I believe the ancient Greeks knew more about their kinsmen than you or any other historian for that matter.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
History today tries to be an exact science, supported by archeological findings and other scientific methods. History of 2000 BC was reliant on MYTHS. Do you trust Historical treaties of 250 AD more than modern history books. The Japanese for example maintained that Japan was created by eight drops who fell into the Ocean from the sword of their Sun Goddess. Do you beleive that my gullible friend?
Maybe "myths" was not the proper word. Legends would be more appropriate. And there is truth in these legends. Why would the rest of the Greeks write down these legends if they (supposedly) did not view the Macedonians as Greeks? And i might remind you, that they were very strict in the differentiation of tribes like Illyrians/Scythians and Greeks. After all it was they who said that "Pas mi Ellin, varvaros", which means that anyone who is non-greek is considered a barbarian.
And of course, we can't over overlook the story of Alexander I, the first Macedonian king that took part in the Olympic games. The athletes did not want him to race, but after he proved to the authorities his nation's Argive origin, he was accepted to the race.
Merely dismissing myths, because they are myths is plain stupid and not productive. After all, we owe most of our knoweldge of ancient Greeks (and any ancient civilisations for that matter) due to their writings.
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
This message has been edited by Koursaros on May 26, 2004 5:26 PM
Just for clarification: Illyrians and Scythians are never grouped together. Illyrians were the original inhabitants of the Balkans and Thrace before the invasion of later Indo-European waves such as the Celts or Slavs. They might have been heavily influenced by Hellenic culture, which was undeniably the dominant one in the region but formed a distinct linguistic and cultrual entity nevertheless. Ancient Macedonians together with other civilizaitons such as the Trojans that inhabited the perimeter of the Hellenic World belonged to that group.
The Scythians however were Central Asian nomads. Some say they spoke Indo-European, some maintain they spoke an Altaic language (please see my post above). Their impact was felt mainly on the Balkans (which is a natural stop for all invasions emanating from the Steppes), the northern shores of the Black Sea, the Caucasus and Transoxania.
Just for clarification: Illyrians and Scythians are never grouped together. Illyrians were the original inhabitants of the Balkans and Thrace before the invasion of later Indo-European waves such as the Celts or Slavs. They might have been heavily influenced by Hellenic culture, which was undeniably the dominant one in the region but formed a distinct linguistic and cultrual entity nevertheless. Ancient Macedonians together with other civilizaitons such as the Trojans that inhabited the perimeter of the Hellenic World belonged to that group.
The Scythians however were Central Asian nomads. Some say they spoke Indo-European, some maintain they spoke an Altaic language (please see my post above). Their impact was felt mainly on the Balkans (which is a natural stop for all invasions emanating from the Steppes), the northern shores of the Black Sea, the Caucasus and Transoxania.
Just for clarification: Illyrians and Scythians are never grouped together. Illyrians were the original inhabitants of the Balkans and Thrace before the invasion of later Indo-European waves such as the Celts or Slavs.
That was a lot of BS. Yet again.
The Illyrians appeared in the Balkan region in 1000BC. Slavs do not belong in the Indo-European group.
The Scythians however were Central Asian nomads. Some say they spoke Indo-European, some maintain they spoke an Altaic language (please see my post above). Their impact was felt mainly on the Balkans (which is a natural stop for all invasions emanating from the Steppes), the northern shores of the Black Sea, the Caucasus and Transoxania.
The Scythians spoke an Indo-European language, believed to have been related to Iranian languages . The various Scythian dialects are not very well known, however, and our knowledge of the language comes largely from words and personal names quoted in classical sources, a few inscriptions, and names of geographical features. The evidence we have clearly shows that the Scythian language group was very close to Gathic Avestan, the earliest Iranian language of which we have clear knowledge. Avestan, a sister language to Old Persian, from which Modern Persian descends, is well-known from a number of extant texts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Scythian_language
Molon Lave When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. Leonardo da Vinci
