I recently was chatting with a colleague at work and the topic of the battle of Marathon was discussed. He told me some “facts” about the before and after the fighting which didn’t synch with what I had read. So I went to the WWW and became even more confused. I’d post what I found, plus the comments of a professor of Greek history that I know, except I don’t want to bias anyone. So what did you learn? TIA.

BTW, that is not me standing in front of the burial mound of the 192 Athenian casualties:

"The casualties of the Hellenes amounted to 192 Athenians and un unrecorded number of Plataeans and slaves, as it is implied by the fact that the Athenians to honor their dead buried them in three tombs (mounts). In one of the tombs were buried the Athenian citizens, in the second the Plataeans and in the third the slaves. The tomb of the Athenians still exists in the plain of Marathon and it is the starting point of the Marathon race."

http://www.army.gr/n/e/archive/events/marathon.html

If you read any normal history sites you will find out what happened. But, i am curious, what is you want to say?

Molon Lave


When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return.
Leonardo da Vinci

Was there a runner?

Were there more than one runner?

If there was/were runner(s), what did he/they announce?

Why did the Persians that fled the battle not attack Athens from the sea?

These are some of the inconsistancies.

According to Herodotus Persian were defeated by Greeks at Marathon(490 B.C). Here we are going to examin the facts to see to what extand Herodotus claims are correct.

This is what Herodotus says and since his book is the only source remaining from that period, we have to see what he has to say but we can NOT blindly accept his words just because he says so. It's a known fact that he hated Persians.

The Greeks and Eretria attacked Sard(Sard was Persian territory) and burned its holy temple. Dariush decided to punish the Greeks. There were other events that contributed to the situation such as kidnaping of some princess or wives of some royal family members by Greeks and Eretrian.

Dariush first ordered the building of special long ships to be able to carry horses. He put Datis and Artaferen in charge of the fleet of 600 ships. Hippias who is Greek accompanied the Persian Army. Hippias was living in exile in Lydia after the Athenian revolution. He was the one who was lobbying Dariush for a Persian invasion of Greek in hope of him to come to power. He had promised the Persians that as soon as they arrive in Athens, people would rise and choose him as their leader. With that promise in hand the Persians set sail first to Eretria and after that to Greece. Hippias took the Persian forces to Marathon Gulf and they prepared for war. Greek army from Athens and other part of Greece gathered. At the beginning of the war Persians were successful and pushed back the mid section of the Greek army but the left and the right section of Greek army came to rescue and pushed the Persian army back all the way to their ships. Greeks took 7 out of the 600 ships Persians had brought and Persians sailed home with the rest of ships. Then a solider ran to Athens to bring the news of victory to people and in doing that he died.

Herodotus painted a terrible and total defeat of the Persian army, writing that 6000 Persian were killed while only 192 Greek soldiers were killed. According to Herodotus, Persian army had comprised of 200,000 soldiers. Herodotus also mentioned one very important point; he talked about a Greek on the highest point of the island At-Teek signaling with his shield [separ] that Athens is empty of soldiers. This is a very significant. That's all what Herodotus says.

NOW, it is one thing to read Herodotus and another thing to accept his lies. His book at best gives us some clues of what may have actually happened and I believe with very small amount of logic and common sense, one could come to a totally different conclusion of what actually happened. The battle of Marathon was NOT a total defeat in a major war, but rather it was merely a military maneuver. Here are the reasons:

(1) 600 ships can NOT carry 200,000 soldiers. Herodotus himself in another part of his book writes that the PERSIAN NAVY in Athos (492 B.C) taking heavy loses due to a storm and lost 600 ships. Herodotus then writes that 20,000 soldiers were killed in that storm. So 600 ships can carry about 20,000 soldiers. Therefore 600 Persian ships at that time could NOT be carrying 200,000 soldiers. We have to take into account also horses, food and other military machines and instruments. Other scholars calculated the Persian army as 40,000 (Grundi), 25,000 (Munro) and 20,000 (Ed. Mayer).

(2) Dariush was at the height of his power. The most powerful man in the world at that time would NOT send ONLY 20,000/40,000 man army to invade Greek.

(3) Marathon's shore is not a good place to launch an attack. In fact Marathon is a very small gulf having an opening of 9 km long and 2 km wide, which is called dashte Marathon. So there is no way you can place 200,000 soldiers and horseman on that small place.

(4) How can Persians take almost all of their ships (593) with them if they are being chased, while they are running back? How can the Persians manage to get out of there if they are losing the war with almost all of their ships? They should have lost many more ships if that's true. How could one lose a war when out of 600 ships only 7 ships are taken and 593 are still in the hands of the Persians!!! Moreover, getting into the 593 ships require discipline and order and all of that without having any harbor [eskele].

The fact that Persian Army chose that place far from Athens was to bring out the Greek army out of Athens and into Marathon in order to have Athens empty. The Persians were counting on Hippias words that his supporter in Athens would rise up and take over Athens when they find the town empty of Athenian soldiers. This, of course, did NOT happened.

The fact that there is a Greek on top of the mountain of At-Teek signaling with his shield [separ] is the evidence that this was only a trap for Greek Army to leave Athens alone. While they were far away from Athens, Persians could sail to Athens in the hands of supporter of Hippias .

A soldier would NOT run himself to death to bring good news of victory. The Greek soldier, instead, ran himself to death from Marathon to Athens to try to warn the Athenian people of the impending Persian invasion. Think about it.

Why Datis didn't invade Athens while he had the chance? He had the chance when Athens was completely empty but he seems to not want to risk losing the army in invading Athens with ONLY 20,000 soldiers, without having much support from inside Athens. This was not what the Persians had planned and expecting so it seems that they calculated the risks involved and decided to back off from invading Athens.



God Bless our Noble Nation & Our Beloved Iran, The Land of Aryans

I was hoping that you would share with us what you learned about the event rather cut and paste from a web site.

BTW, you should use footnotes or quotation marks

http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/marathon.html
Article By Yazdgerd

Was there a runner?

Were there more than one runner?

If there was/were runner(s), what did he/they announce?

Why did the Persians that fled the battle not attack Athens from the sea?
_________________________________________________________

1&2. I assume you mean a runner to carry the news of victory to Athens. Since there were no cell phones at the time , yes i think there probably WAS, how else would they get news of the outcome of the battle?
Runners were the courier service of ancient greece and news of such a victory was probably dispatched not only to Athens but to all major Greek city states.

However the identity (and what he said) of the particular runner who died exhausted on arrival at Athens seems to have become shrouded in legend. I've seen claims that it was either:

A. Pheidippides (the same runner who ALSO, according to Herodotus, ran 150 miles to Sparta in less than 2 days (the spartathlon) to warn of the Persian landing and to seek help). see- http://spartathlon.webvista.net/History.htm

B. Eucles, another runner

C. Or even claims that Pheidippides and Eucles could have been the same person....

despite the confusion over who the runner was...there is little doubt that there

3. This is what the official Athens Olympics site says about this:
"One of the Athenians brought the news of the victory from Marathon to Athens. Running at top speed all the way, he cried “Nenikekamen” (We won), and died."

http://www.athens2004.com/athens2004/page/legacy?lang=en&cid=82fa470429149f00VgnVCMServer28130b0aRCRD

4. From what i remeber reading, the Persian General Datis tried to beat the Athenians back to Athens by sea, which would have taken 12-14 hours dependant on the wind or the strength of the oarsmen, but the Athenians managed to rush back (took them 9 hours) in time to man the sea walls- so by the time the Persians came they saw the walls manned and probably thought it wasn't worth the hassle..........


WHY what did you hear?

I think the pertinent question should be: would you trust a book on the history of the Jews written by Hitler?

@ the guy who started this thread: what do you think happened?

@Omid

That was pathetic. You couldn't have brought a more biased article (if the term can be applied). Go read some proper history books.

Molon Lave


When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return.
Leonardo da Vinci

I’ve noticed a trend here: few want to share what they "know"

This is not an attempt to embarrass anybody. As there is quite a range in the documentation on the WWW with regard to other historical topics that I’ve researched, so there is also with regard to the battle at Marathon. They often begin with a disagreement on a point and then I discover other variations. For example, see what I posted/asked on this forum regarding the battle at Thermopylae at http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=279501&messageid=1085612736&lp=1085612736

In my own example with regard to the “before and after” of Marathon, I brought to the original discussion at work what I learned (and could remember) and the others did also as this was not something we had planned to discuss. Some stated one thing, while others claimed something else. As I stated in my initial post: I am interested in learning what you think is the story/history. I’ve already spent a number of hours on the web (I’ve even been to the Greek army site
http://www.army.gr/n/e/archive/events/marathon.html and while they describe the battle at Marathon in great detail, I was very disappointed that Thermopylae wasn’t even mentioned (perhaps their web master is from Athens?)) and have had discussions with a professor of Greek history (yes, I know he is only one source). I don’t want to bias anyone by presenting what I found. I don’t want to have others search the web for the “correct answer” and post it as theirs. I am interested in viewing the delta between what each of us “knows” about a particular famous military event that we all believe we know “correctly”.

To make some/many happy, I will post after either 20 real answers or early July 2004, which ever comes first, my research on the topic.

TIA.

Was there a runner?
Were there more than one runner?
If there was/were runner(s), what did he/they announce?
Why did the Persians that fled the battle not attack Athens from the sea?

These questions were answered by G3.

I don't know however what was the point of the post. You could have easily consulted many sources like this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon

which is pretty balanced.


Molon Lave


When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return.
Leonardo da Vinci

and while they describe the battle at Marathon in great detail, I was very disappointed that Thermopylae wasn’t even mentioned

I don't think that is of major importance as the army site is not a particularly well documented historical source. There are a few accurate articles but they are few. It not by design though.


(perhaps their web master is from Athens?)

What are you trying to say?

Molon Lave


When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return.
Leonardo da Vinci

Marathon was an Athenian victory while Sparta gets the glory for Thermopylae. So, if the person that controls the content of the web site has a bias towards or against a particular city/state, that might explain why one battle is and the other isn't on their site.

What did you think I was trying to say Mr. "Molon Labe"? Are you the Greek army web master?

Hellas gets the glory for both.

As far as Herodotus is concerned. Herodotus birth is estimated to be in the 480s. After the battle of Marathon. And as for his "biased" approach towards Athens, there are no facts to support this. If there are any, bring them forth. On the contrary though, he was actually proud of his city, Halicarnassus and its queen Artemisia.

Molon Lave


When once you have tasted flight,
you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return.
Leonardo da Vinci

That was pathetic. You couldn't have brought a more biased article (if the term can be applied). Go read some proper history books.
-------------------------------------------------------
by proper do u mean the ones that was wriiten by westerns like the site u gave us here? look what i found in that site
--
I don't know however what was the point of the post. You could have easily consulted many sources like this one which is pretty balanced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon

The common enemy of Persia helped provide some solidarity to the disunited Greek city-states. The victory helped solidify the view that Greeks were "civilized" and Asians were merely "Barbarians."

is that what u call pretty balanced?



God Bless our Noble Nation & Our Beloved Iran, The Land of Aryans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marathon

Hey! I wrote some of that.

Actually, I should say thatI rewrote some of that, sadly some of it has been re-writen AGAIN. Some of the contributors to Wikepedia are masters of Engrish.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Two points

*History is what the victors make of it.

*The truth lies in the mind of the beholder. The human mind builds and understand on what it already knows. A built in bias is not an option, but rather it is a base of our understanding of what we see and read.

Fortunately, I have the luxury of traveling to all these sites many, many times. Unfortunately, my blood boils of Spartan heritage and my views are biased to the extreme.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some say that I posed for this statue, it’s not true! I am much fiercer looking and better built!



BTW, it stands within a five minute walk from my house.

I have SEVERAL THOUSAND slides of all the Greek sites. I wish there was a way to easily convert 35mm slides to digital pictures. You guys would be in for a huge treat. Including seeing me with a small shovel on my knees in a excavation.

"I think the pertinent question should be: would you trust a book on the history of the Jews written by Hitler? "

@kamangir

The mere thought of you even associating Herodotus, who is considered by many as 'the father' of History as a discipline, to Hitler is disgusting and offensive. One was a genocidal mad man with delusions of grandure and still has the stench of millions dead on his gruby hands and the other was a scholar....shame on you.



@ Spartanblood

Leonida mou esi! LOL! , you know the statue of Kolokotroni in Athens? yes you guessed it- me (had trouble keeping the damn horse still though gamoto! LOL!

Leonida mou esi! LOL! , you know the statue of Kolokotroni in Athens? yes you guessed it- me (had trouble keeping the damn horse still though gamoto! LOL!

Yeah, that's right! That's me!

BTW, I hope it wasn't Catherine the Great horse. You would be in REAL trouble if you fell off! (sick humour abounds!)

~~~~~~~

It's interesting to read thoughts of people from all over the planet. They talk about your home town and show pictures of statues a few steps away. It puts an extra wide smile on my face and my chest puffs up a little more when others ackowledge my heritage.

It's nice to have Leonidas mixed in your DNA.

...being a Spartan must have been a privilege indeed...

Xerxes sent for Demaratus the son of Ariston, who had accompanied him in his march upon Greece, and said to him:

"Demaratus, I would like you to tell me something. As I hear, you are a Greek and a native of a powerful city. Tell me, will the Greeks really fight against us? I think that even if all the Greeks and all the barbarians of the West were gathered together in one place, they would not be able to stop me, since they are so disunited. But I would like to know what you think about this."

Demaratus replied to Xerxes' question: "O king! Do you really want me to give a true answer, or would you rather that I make you feel good about all this?"

The king commanded him to speak the plain truth, and promised that he would not on that account hold him in less favour than before.

When he heard this promise, Demaratus spoke as follows: "O king! Since you command me to speak the truth, I will not say what will one day prove me a liar. Difficulties have at all times been present in our land, while Courage is an ally whom we have gained through wisdom and strict laws. Her aid enables us to solve problems and escape being conquered. All Greeks are brave, but what I am about to say does not concern all, but only the Spartans."

"First then, no matter what, the Spartans will never accept your terms. This would reduce Greece to slavery. They are sure to join battle with you even if all the rest of the Greeks surrendered to you. As for Spartan numbers, do not ask how many or few they are, hoping for them to surrender. For if a thousand of them should take the field, they will meet you in battle, and so will any other number, whether it is less than this, or more."

When Xerxes heard this answer of Demaratus, he laughed and answered: "What wild words, Demaratus! A thousand men join battle with such an army as mine! Come then, will you -- who were once, as you say, their king -- fight alone right now against ten men? I think not. And yet, if your fellow-citizens really are as you say, then according to your laws as their king, you should be twice as tough and take on twenty all by yourself!"

But, if you Greeks, who think so hightly of yourselves, are simply the size and kind of men as those I have seen at my court, or as yourself, Demaratus, then your bragging is weak. Use common sense: how could a thousand men, or ten thousand, or even fifty thousand -- particularly if they are all free, and not under one lord -- how could such a force stand against a united army like mine? Even if the Greeks have larger numbers than our highest estimate, we still would outnumber them 100 to 1."

If they had a single master as our troops have, their obedience to him might make them courageous beyond their own desire, or they might be pushed onward by the whip against an enemy which far outnumbered them. But left to their own free choice, they will surely act differently. For my part, I believe that if the Greeks had to contend with the Persians only, and the numbers were equal on both sides, the Greeks would still find it hard to stand their ground. We too have men among us as tough as those you described -- not many perhaps, but enough. For instance, some of my bodyguard would willing engage singly with three Greeks. But this you did not know; and so you talked foolishly."

Demaratus answered him- "I knew, O king, that if I told you the truth, I would displease you. But since you wanted the truth, I am telling you what the Spartans will do. I am not speaking out of any love that I have for Sparta -- you know better than anyone how I feel about those who robbed me of my rank, of my ancestral honours, and made me a homeless exile.... Look, I am no match for ten men or even two, and given the choice, I would rather not fight at all. But if necessary, I would rather go against those who boast that they are a match for any three Greeks."

"The same goes for the Spartans. One-against-one, they are as good as anyone in the world. But when they fight in a body, they are the best of all. For though they are free men, they are not entirely free. They accept Law as their master. And they respect this master more than your subjects respect you. Whatever he commands, they do. And his command never changes: It forbids them to flee in battle, whatever the number of their foes. He requires them to stand firm -- to conquer or die. O king, if I seem to speak foolishly, I am content from this time forward to remain silent. I only spoke now because you commanded me to. I do hope that everything turns out according to your wishes."

This was the answer of Demaratus, and Xerxes was not angry with him at all, but only laughed, and sent him away with words of kindness.





"Some say that I posed for this statue, it’s not true! I am much fiercer looking and better built!"



...guess this is more accurate

http://www.inisfail.com/~ancients/marathon-battle.html

some interesting facts on the battle of marathon

The Persian Invasion and the Battle of Marathon
by Thomas Setzer

After Darius' fleet was destroyed in 492 bc, he sent envoys to the Greek states in Spring 491 bc, demanding that each city-state send him the earth and water of vassalage. This was accepted by many of the states, from the northern Aegean to the Dardanelles, but this was refused by Athens and Sparta. With so many of the city-states submitting to him, Darius felt Greece was ready to fall to him.

In the spring of 490 bc, Darius assembled a fleet of over 600 ships and a large army near Tarsus. This armed force was jointly commanded by Darius' nephew Artaphernes and a Midean nobleman named Datis. They had with them also an exiled Athenian named Hippias as a guide and advisor. The fleet traveled through the Cyclades to Naxos, which they then assaulted and looted. The Persian fleet, having secured command of the Cyclades and the Aegean Sea, moved forward with the invasion. The fleet sailed from island to island, conscripting troops and taking hostages. The Persians met with only slight resistance at Carystus, the southernmost town of Euboea. The Persians then laid siege to Eretria, and after a week of resistance, the city finally fell to a betrayal from inside the city. The Persians pillaged and looted the city without mercy. The Persians then moved on to the shores of Attica.

Hippias had advised the Persian military commanders that the Bay of Marathon was the most logical place for landing and disembarking the army. It had a sheltered bay, a long, firm, flat plain between the mountains and the sea, and was protected from the north and east winds. It was also within an easy march of Athens, which was only thirty-eight kilometers away. The long and sandy beach could accommodate all of the Persians' 600+ ships. Also, the open plain of Marathon was perfect for the use of the Persian cavalry, against which it was thought the Athenian infantry would be ineffective.

The Persians situated their camp near the Makaria Spring, which provided a plentiful supply of water, and the nearby plain had good grazing for the horses.

Hippias' information on Athens would prove to be out of date, as the government had had many changes sine his exile. The power now was in an elected Commander in Chief, called a Polemarch, and new military officers called Strategoi, and the new government was determined to maintain Athens' independence. The Commander in Chief was Callimachus. The main planner and strategist was Miltiades, who also served as a commander of one of the ten main infantry divisions (Lochoi).

The Athenians were warned of the Persian invasion by a series of beacon fires. They sent word to Sparta by fast runner, and the Spartans announced that although they were sympathetic to the Athenian cause, they were forbade by religious belief to send their troops into combat until after the full moon. The full moon would not be for another six or seven days, as it was only the 5th of August. This meant for most of a week the Athenians could not count on any support from Sparta. The Athenians did manage to get a small contingent of troops (about six hundred Hoplites) from Plataea.

The first instructions for battle from Miltiades were to contain the invading army and block its march on Athens. A force consisting of approximately 9000 Athenians and 600 Plataeans took up their position at the southern end of the Plain of Marathon with Mount Agrieliki on their left flank, the sea on their right flank, and the Brexisa Marsh to their rear. They had effectively blocked the road to Athens. The Athenian commanders had trees cut down and manhandled into position with their branches facing the Persian line to create a defense against the Persian cavalry.

For the next few days, till the 11th of August, the lines remained static, five kilometers apart, neither side willing to make a move to attack the other. The Athenians did not wish to advance onto the plain where the advantage would lay with the Persian cavalry and archers.

The Persians on their part remained stationary, as they did not want to engage the Greek line where it had taken up a position that was unfavorable to the Persian cavalry. The Persians were also hoping for a betrayal in Athens itself by the friends of Hippias.

Datis, after becoming frustrated by the stalemate, put his own battle plan into action. During the night on the 11th-12th of August, he reboarded his ships with most of the cavalry as well as the infantry under his command, and, slipping away under cover of darkness, sailed for Phaleron Bay, leaving Artaphernes with a holding force facing the Athenians. Miltiades' scouts discovered the departure and quickly informed him of it. The Athenian leaders were summoned, and Miltiades' laid out the only possible chance of a Greek victory. As it would take the Persians a minimum of ten hours to reach Phaleron by sea, and disembarkation would take a few more hours, by which time it would be late afternoon or early evening. This gave the Athenians one chance for victory. They must defeat the remaining Persians and return to Athens before Datis arrived.

The Persian general, Artaphernes, was now without most of the cavalry, and a large portion of the infantry, but he still retained a large number of archers. With this in mind, Miltiades set forth a plan for attempting to quickly defeat Artaphernes' force so that the Athenians would be able to return to Athens to meet Datis' force. At 5:30 am, with time short, and only three hours in which to win the battle, the order to attack was given.



The Athenian army was drawn up in a battle order as planned by Miltiades. Callimachus commanded the right flank, the left flank was held by the Plataeans, and the center was commanded by Themistocles and Aristeides. The Athenian tactic was to use a long, thin center with the ranks reduced to four instead of the usual eight, with deep formations deployed on the two flanks. The main strength would be in the massed formations on the two flanks, which were to drive off the Persian flanks and then wheel and attack the Persian center.

The Persian force was deployed with the center being the crack troops and the flank held by inferior battalions drawn from the conscripts of the Persian Empire. This was exactly as Miltiades had predicted. The Athenians were still at great risk, however, as they only had a little over half the strength of the Persian elite troops. They would also have to advance across an open plain while being fired upon by the Persian archers.

The distance between the two armies was approximately fifteen hundred meters when the advance was sounded and the Athenian ranks moved forward at 6:00 am. The advance started at a brisk walk, then developed into a trot, and then into double-time as they rushed the last 140-150 meters. This fast advance was the first double-time advance by Hoplites according to Herodotus, and was done in hope of avoiding the worst of the hail of arrows from the Persian troops. In the center, the Persian royal troops, made up of the Immortals and other elite units, began forcing the Athenian center back. Meanwhile, on either flank the Athenians' deep formations had crushed and carried before them the Persian flanks, putting them to flight.

With the Persian flanks destroyed or put to flight, the Athenian and Plataean flanking forces wheeled inward, hinging upon the retreating Athenian center, catching the Persian elite troops in a perfect pincer maneuver. The Persians had no choice but to try to fight their way back to their ships. Many of the Persians drowned in the marshes where they had retreated to. Others who tried to flee into the sea were also drowned. By 9:00 am, the beaten up Persian surviving royal troops and such ships that could get away were heading out to sea and toward Phaleron. The Persians had lost 6,400 troops, and an uncounted number of prisoners and wounded, along with seven ships. The Athenians had lost only 192 dead, including their Command in Chief, Callimachus. Miltiades detached one division under Aristeides to guard the prisoners and captured equipment, and quick-marched his troops back to Athens.

When the Persian invasion force arrived, they found the Athenian army had already taken up defensive positions at Cynosarges, south of the city. Datis found Athens to be well defended, and attempts to land would have been useless, so he anchored and waited for Artaphernes to arrive. When Artaphernes arrived with his battered and depleted, force, there was only one course of action left for the Persian fleet, and that was to return to Asia.

In 489 bc, Miltiades made an unsuccessful attempt to regain control of the Aegean islands that had capitulated to the Persians, but he did not have sufficient naval force to accomplish this task. After failing in his blockade of Paros, Miltiades was imprisoned at Athens for his defeat, and he died soon afterward of a wound received at Paros. Thus was the victor of Marathon rewarded.

Levend,

Great stuff! That made my DAY!

But....

Fortunatly it's not true! Well, it wasn't true...but if you one goes past fifty, one better lose weight and FAST....or one lands up needing a bra and a girdle! Damn it! All that damn work to keep fit and age steals it away! * laughs and looks down *

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, Levend, interesting post. There is a saying in war that is true from the days we fell of the trees and splattered, tails first. "Never underestimate your enemy and never take him for granted".

I didn't quite get the response I was hoping for. But I said that I would post additional info by July.

Background:

I had a discussion with a colleague that has quite a bit of military history knowledge, but we disagreed with regard to the Battle of Marathon on many points.

I remembered from my childhood, that the Greeks faced a much larger Persian army and after the Greeks won, they sent a runner to Athens with the news and he died just as he shouted, "Nike!".

My colleague said that after the battle, the Persians went by sea to Athens, which was undefended. So, two runners were dispatched to Athens to warn them and one survived the dash to tell them about the threat. The women and old men dressed in armor and "manned" the walls. The Persians thought that the city was defended by the army that just soundly defeated them at Marathon, so they left Greece.

So I was curious if others had various versions of the events, fact or fiction, so I asked the question to the forum.

My research on the web found some good info and someone else who researched the part about runner(s). I also asked this question to a professor of Greek history at a US university that I know personally. Anyway, it seems that there was no runner dispatched from the battle, though there was a runner sent to Sparta for troops, so both my colleague and I were duped by what we had been taught/read. I didn't find any mention of the Persians being tricked by the Athenian women and old men, so I don't know where my colleague heard that story.


http://www.army.gr/n/e/archive/events/marathon.html The Greek Army has lots to say about the fighting but not the running.

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclassics/lectures/history/PersianWars/persianwars.shtm The death of a runner is not documented.

A didactic tale for children by Tassos Efstathiou

It was late August towards the beginning of September in 490 BC, when the long-distance runner Pheidippides was called upon by the Athenians to run as fast as possible to Sparta to ask for military aid to help combat the Persians who had just landed in their thousands on the beaches of Marathon.

Before Pheidippides began, he stopped by his house, somewhere in Colonos, to take with him a flask of water, some figs, and a pair of sandals. He kissed his wife goodbye, caressed his small son, and, after taking a good, long look at both, started on his lonely journey.

He ran along the Iera Odos (the "Sacred Way"), and, after reaching Eleusis, took a small break to wipe his forehead dry -- the sun was at its highest point this time of day; he then continued towards Megara. When he reached the Isthmus in the afternoon he looked back and could see all of Attica. He drank some water and reached for a fig – but changed his mind. After massaging his thighs, he started running again towards Sparta. He went north of Corinth and headed toward the mountains near Argos. It was already getting dark as he approached Arcadia. His heart had a normal beat, his legs were still light, his soul was peaceful

While passing Mycenae, Tiryns, and Nauplion, he was reciting Homeric poems. He thought to have a rest, but the night was so wonderful that he continued: in any case Sparta was getting closer. As he ran he passed the villages of the Taiyeatons who were sleeping calmly, and he thought of the Athenians who were preparing for battle and how uneasy they were, so he continued on instead. With daybreak Taiyetos mountain appeared. Still fresh, Pheidippides crossed the Eurotas river, cooling himself with the cold crisp water. As the sun rose over Hellas, he was entering Sparta.

Heading towards the Senate (Gerousia), he stopped at a water fountain, washed himself, and, after taking a deep breath, entered. A Spartan elder was in the compound. "Greetings, I am Pheidippides, the runner, and I came from Athens bringing a message to the Archons of Sparta," he said. The elder, as if expecting this visit, told Pheidippides to sit down and rest while he called the Archons to assembly. It was as if time stood still, for it seemed like ages before the Senate was assembled. "We are listening to you" said the elder.

Pheidippides took a deep breath and began speaking loudly, clearly, and slowly: just as if he were a Spartan:

"Spartan Men, yesterday morning I left Athens, coming here as a representative to seek military aid against the common enemy ! The Persians have defeated and destroyed Eretria, in Eubea, and now are headed towards Athens. Your presence is required, and most importantly, you must act immediately!" He stopped

speaking and looked around. The Senate informed him that he would have a response in one hour. He went outside and had a small walk, forgetting for the time being the purpose of his visit. Afterwards, he was called back inside. "Athenian, the Spartan army does not initiate an action unless there is a full moon. In fifteen days we will send our military."

Pheidippides nodded to acknowledge that he understood the message (for he knew that it would be useless to argue with the Lacedaemonians), saluted the Senators and exited. He quickly began his return to Athens: The Athenians would want to hear the bad news as soon as possible.

Pheidippides
Related: Ancient History Greek Biographies

(fîdĬp´Ĭdçz) , fl. 490 BC, semilegendary Athenian courier sent to Sparta to request help when the Persians landed at Marathon. He ran 150 miles in two days. At the conclusion of the battle, he ran the 22 mi (35 km) back to Athens, where he reportedly shouted “Rejoice! We conquer!” and then died of exhaustion.


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The Great Marathon Myth
by Ian Kemp


Being of a curious nature I have always been interested by the legend of the Marathon - you know, the story that a Greek runner was sent to Athens to announce the Athenian victory at the battle of Marathon. As one who is keen to run marathons myself, what interested me most was our hero's alleged death from exhaustion on completion of his run. Why did this hardy soul die when so many ordinary people today can quite evidently complete a marathon run with little more than a few blisters? My curiosity was heightened by the fact that there seem to be differing versions of the story, and I had even seen it suggested in various email forums and web sites that the the run in fact never took place!

So I resolved to investigate the great marathon mystery. But where to start - well, where better than with our handy encylopaedia of all things true and mythological: http://www.google.com/ !

Let's start with the simple version of 'the myth' - as stated by US running author Jeff Galloway, writing of the Athens Marathon:

In 490 BC, the first battle for democracy was fought at the Greek village of Marathon. Though overwhelmingly outnumbered by an invading Persian horde, the citizen-soldiers of Athens won and preserved the classical Greek way of life. Legend has it that the Athenian messenger Phidippides ran twenty-five miles to Athens, carrying news of that stunning victory. The modern marathon commemorates his feat.
http://www.jeffgalloway.com/retreats/athens.html

The version I was brought up on (fed by TV commentators at the Olympics I'm sure) had Pheidippides (or Phidippides or Philippides) calling "victory" before dying at the completion of his run - as recounted on the Ancient Olympics FAQ Page:

The traditional origin of the marathon comes from the story how a herald named Phidippides ran the 26 miles from Marathon to Athens to announce the Greek victory and died on the spot.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Olympics/faq10.html

Wikipedia has another variation, a double-marathon -

Phidippides ... ran 26 miles to Athens to tell the Athenians that their navy had defeated the Persians. He then ran back to Marathon, where the battle had taken place, and delivered another message to the commanders of the navy, after which he collapsed of exhaustion, and died.
http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/Phidippides

The Athenian Navy fought at marathon? Well never mind let's press on. Algis' Timelines of History has a fourth variation - in this one Pheidippides runs a double marathon, but this time his run is BEFORE the battle of Marathon not after it:

490BCE Sep 2, Phidippides of Athens set out on his 26-mile run that inspired the Marathon. Phidippides was sent to seek troops from Sparta to help against the invading Persian army. The Spartans were unwilling to help, until the next full moon, due to religious laws. On Sept. 4th, Phidippides returned the 26 miles Marathon without Spartan troops.
http://timelines.ws/0D499_1BC.HTML

An even more embellished telling from Wood Middle School has Pheidippides running from Marathon to Sparta (140 miles), then back (140 miles), then to Athens (25 miles) at which point he collapsed and died after gasping 'rejoice'.

In 490 B.C. Persia's fleet of 600 ships loomed off the Greek Shores not far from Athens. According to legend, the general of the Athenian troops sent his fastest runner, Phidippides to ask for help from Sparta.
Phidippides ran for two days and two nights to reach Sparta, about 140 miles away. He gave the message to the Spartans. The Spartans agreed to send troops, but not until after their religious festival was completed in nine days.

"Phidippides ran back to Athens, but the general couldn't wait that long, so he ordered his troops to advance on the Persians. The Persians were no match for the Athenians and 6,400 Persians were slain. The general then ordered Phidippides back to Marathon to spread the good news. The distance between marathon and Athens was approximately 25 miles. Phidippides made the distance, managed to gasp "Rejoice!" then he collapsed and died…. The first marathon completed."
http://198.236.202.10/wood/faastd/greek/AllStory.html

After the two 140-mile ultras the 25 mile might have been considered a light recovery run, but maybe the pace got away with him?

So what is the truth? Was there a Pheidippides? Did he run before the battle of Marathon, or after it, and did he stage a heroic death scene as a touch of tragedy to temper the Athenian's victory?

The level of confusion over the story is perhaps not surprising as we are dealing with events well over 2000 years ago. So the only option is to consult the primary sources. In this case the primary source is the writer Herodotus (born 484 BC - 6 years after the battle of Marathon) - who's 'Histories' is the authoritative account of the Battle of Marathon (among many other things).

Herodotus of course didn't have access to the web, but the authoritative translation of his 'histories' (translation by George Rawlinson in 1942) has been placed on the web - I used the markup by Bruce J. Butterfield dated 1997
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/herodotus/herodot6.htm

Sections from the English translation are included as the appendix to this page. The basic facts from Herodotus are as follows:

The Athenian generals sent Pheidippides, a professional runner, to Sparta to ask the spartans to help fight the Persian army, who had arrived by ship at Marathon. Pheidippides completed the 145 mile journey and arrived in Sparta the day after he left Athens. He delivered the Generals' request, then returned to Athens with the Spartan's reply - which was that due to observances they could not leave Sparta until the full moon. Upon receiving this news the generals decided to attack the Persians anyway, the result being an Athenian victory against seemingly overwhelming odds.
Having been beaten in the field, the Persians returned to their ships and set sail for Athens - to attack it while undefended. However the Athenians marched the 25 miles overland and succeeded in reaching Athens before the ships, at which the Persians thought better of their plan and beat a retreat by sea.

Note that there is no mention of a messenger being sent to Athens after the Battle.

After it was all over, 2000 Spartan troops arrived at Marathon and were much impressed by the Athenian victory. Their hasty journey along Pheidippides' 145 mile route took them three days.

So there you have it - Pheidippides was more than a mere marathon runner - according to the nearest historical account we have, he completed back to back ultramarathons each of over 200km in extent.

Dan Brannen of the American Ultrarunning Association recounts that in 1982 some runners covered the REAL Pheidippides course - 147.2 miles along a route agreed by a consortium of Greek scholars to the most probable route taken by our Bronze age hero.
http://rrca.org/bulletin/spart.html

This led to the establishment in 1983 of the International Spartathlon race over the Pheidippides route. The inaugural run marked the emergence of one of the top runners of our age - Greek runner Yiannis Kouros, who won the event with a margin of more than 2½ hours over some of the world's top 24-hour runners. Kouros is a very well-known name among the ultra running fraternity world wide, as he has since gone on to set records and win events all over the world - including a massive course record at the Taupo 100-mile race in 2002.
http://www.coolrunning.co.nz/results/2002/2002r028.html

There is more about Kouros' win and his subsequent career at the UltraOz web site:
http://www.coolrunning.com.au/ultra/kouros.shtml .

Meanwhile, the Spartathlon is still being staged annually in September - you can read all about it at the official web site
http://spartathlon.webvista.net/

By the way, for those interested in the military and historical significance of the Battle of Marathon, I can recommend these two web sites:

Historical Notes - The Battle of Marathon September 490BC by Major General Dimitris Gedeon
http://www.army.gr/html/EN_Army/istoria/marathon.htm
Dr J's Illustrated Guide to the Classical World contains a photo of the burial mound for the 192 Athenians killed at Marathon
http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclassics/lectures/history/PersianWars/persianwars.shtm

Finally, we should ask: where did the Great Marathon Myth originate?

Well according to Nigel Kennell, writing on the ancien-l forum in 1996,

The story of a victory run from Marathon to Athens first appears in Plutarch's Moralia (347C) over half a millenium later than the Persian Wars; he gives credit to either Thersippus or Eukles. Lucian, in the second century AD, says that a PhiLippides ran from Marathon.
http://www.atrium-media.com/goldenthreads/pheidip.html
How Plutach's version arose and morphed into today's myth is a study I will leave to future investigators.

---Ian---

APPENDIX - Translated extracts from the text of Herodotus
Internet ASCII text source: gopher://gopher.vt.edu:10010/10/33
Translated by George Rawlinson

Copyright (c) 1997 by Bruce J. Butterfield
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/herodotus/herodot6.htm
The Modern Library edition of Rawlinson's text, published under the title of The Persian Wars by Herodotus, 1942, included paragraph indexing. These were added to the Internet ASCII source, along with HTML links, to aid in cross referencing the text.

[6.105] And first, before they left the city, the generals sent off to Sparta a herald, one Pheidippides, who was by birth an Athenian, and by profession and practice a trained runner. This man, according to the account which he gave to the Athenians on his return, when he was near Mount Parthenium, above Tegea, fell in with the god Pan, who called him by his name, and bade him ask the Athenians "wherefore they neglected him so entirely, when he was kindly disposed towards them, and had often helped them in times past, and would do so again in time to come?" The Athenians, entirely believing in the truth of this report, as soon as their affairs were once more in good order, set up a temple to Pan under the Acropolis, and, in return for the message which I have recorded, established in his honour yearly sacrifices and a torch-race.

[6.106] On the occasion of which we speak when Pheidippides was sent by the Athenian generals, and, according to his own account, saw Pan on his journey, he reached Sparta on the very next day after quitting the city of Athens - Upon his arrival he went before the rulers, and said to them:-

"Men of Lacedaemon, the Athenians beseech you to hasten to their aid, and not allow that state, which is the most ancient in all Greece, to be enslaved by the barbarians. Eretria, look you, is already carried away captive; and Greece weakened by the loss of no mean city."

Thus did Pheidippides deliver the message committed to him. And the Spartans wished to help the Athenians, but were unable to give them any present succour, as they did not like to break their established law. It was then the ninth day of the first decade; and they could not march out of Sparta on the ninth, when the moon had not reached the full. So they waited for the full of the moon.

...

[6.115] Nevertheless the Athenians secured in this way seven of the vessels; while with the remainder the barbarians pushed off, and taking aboard their Eretrian prisoners from the island where they had left them, doubled Cape Sunium, hoping to reach Athens before the return of the Athenians. The Alcmaeonidae were accused by their countrymen of suggesting this course to them; they had, it was said, an understanding with the Persians, and made a signal to them, by raising a shield, after they were embarked in their ships.

[6.116] The Persians accordingly sailed round Sunium. But the Athenians with all possible speed marched away to the defence of their city, and succeeded in reaching Athens before the appearance of the barbarians: and as their camp at Marathon had been pitched in a precinct of Hercules, so now they encamped in another precinct of the same god at Cynosarges. The barbarian fleet arrived, and lay to off Phalerum, which was at that time the haven of Athens; but after resting awhile upon their oars, they departed and sailed away to Asia.

[6.117] There fell in this battle of Marathon, on the side of the barbarians, about six thousand and four hundred men; on that of the Athenians, one hundred and ninety-two. Such was the number of the slain on the one side and the other. A strange prodigy likewise happened at this fight. Epizelus, the son of Cuphagoras, an Athenian, was in the thick of the fray, and behaving himself as a brave man should, when suddenly he was stricken with blindness, without blow of sword or dart; and this blindness continued thenceforth during the whole of his after life. The following is the account which he himself, as I have heard, gave of the matter: he said that a gigantic warrior, with a huge beard, which shaded all his shield, stood over against him; but the ghostly semblance passed him by, and slew the man at his side. Such, as I understand, was the tale which Epizelus told.

...

[6.120] After the full of the moon two thousand Lacedaemonians came to Athens. So eager had they been to arrive in time, that they took but three days to reach Attica from Sparta. They came, however, too late for the battle; yet, as they had a longing to behold the Medes, they continued their march to Marathon and there viewed the slain. Then, after giving the Athenians all praise for their achievement, they departed and returned home.


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Cool Running 14.09.02.
Ian has run a few marathons and a couple of ultras but is very unlikely to ever complete a 220km run. But then again, maybe one day...

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The following is the feedback from a Professor of Greek history at a American university:

The Marathon run is a myth (drawn from the 2d century A.D. Roman essay-writer Lucian, not a reliable source, and elaborated in a turgid poem by Robert Browning), but not Pheidippides' run to Sparta. Herodotus gives the more impressive truth on Marathon. Marathon is located on the northeastern coast of Attica, across a mountain range and 26 miles distant from Athens. After the Athenian phalanx had run into battle wearing their 60-80 pounds of arms and equipment and had spent an hour or more in the intense exertion of close battle, the Athenian generals realized that a Persian fleet with soldiers was circling the bottom of the peninsula of Attica to land troops on the other side of the peninsula to capture Athens while it was bereft of defenders. They left a tenth of their army at Marathon to finish "mopping up" and to guard the plunder they had captured, while the other 9000 Athenian hoplites double-timed it back from Marathon, not merely to the city of Athens but to its port at that time Phalerum, 30 miles from Marathon. The Persians, expecting to find undefended turf in front of them, instead found the Athenian phalanx drawn up at water's edge, awaiting any attempt at landing. They, realizing that any attack would be fruitless, sailed back to the Ionian coastline. Stonewall Jackson, with his "foot cavalry", would have been proud of such soldiers!

No one disputes that an "all-day runner" (hemerodromos in Greek) ran to Sparta to ask for help and back ~140 miles over several major and minor mountain ranges en route, though the account your give below is historical fiction on that. There is dispute on his name. Though Herodotus gives the name Pheidippides, some modern scholars think the name too cute to be the real name. That means "one who spares the horses" or "one who lacks horses." They prefer Philippides, "Horse Lover". I'll hold with Herodotus's evidence myself, up to a point, even to believing that Pheidippides made the round trip in less than 4 days.

That point is reached when Herodotus describes an encounter Pheidippides had on top of the first mountain range outside Sparta while he was bearing back to Athens his sad news that the Spartans could not immediately come. "According to Pheidippides himself, he had an encounter with the god Pan near Mount Parthenium. Pan...told him to take the following message to the Athenians" 'Why do you ignore me, when I am a friend of Athens? I have often been of service to you in the past and will be in the future again." Panic, literally, means something belonging or associated with Pan.

You and I may not believe this story literally true, but the Athenians did. Herodotus states and archeology confirms that the Athenians initiated a new cult of Pan on the Acropolis after Marathon.

What's going on here? I tell my classes that, if I had run 160 miles and crossed 6 mountain ranges in 2 days, I would be seeing the god Pan too. Another possibility is that Athenian leaders, perhaps Miltiades himself, were putting a positive spin on the negative news from Sparta. Such a report would have encouraged the Athenian phalanx to risk battle against an army no Greek force had previously defeated in land battle.

As to lycanthropy [I mentioned that the Spartans required a full Moon, therefore they were really werewolves], that's an amusing notion, but the Scythians, according to Herodotus, had the werewolves, not Greeks.

Spartans were extremely scrupulous about following traditional religious rituals. Over their history, they always followed this practice during the festival of Carnea. Their eagerness to fight is shown by how quickly the 2000 hoplites they sent after the full moon reached Athens. Even though they must have heard of the Athenians' victory by the time they reached Corinth or Megara, they pressed on and arrived in Athens two days after leaving Sparta, not much slower than Pheidippides covered the distance. Then they went on to look at the battlegrounds and all the stinking Persian corpses. They were impressed.