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“Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004 at 7:45 PM

AzzurroItalia  (Login AzzurroItalia)
EXPERT POSTER

LA Times / August 24 2000

Ancient documents hint that soldiers from the West lived on the edge of the Gobi Desert more than 2,000 years ago. Some of the compelling evidence includes the light- colored eyes and curly hair of the villagers there today.

ZHELAIZHAI, China--Song Guorong's genealogy gets hazy just a few generations before his own. But follow it back further--by 2,000 years--and he'll tell you exactly who lies at the root of his family tree.

"I know my ancestors were Romans," the lanky 39-year-old says in a matter-of-fact voice as he navigates the rutted lanes of this dusty hamlet deep in China's interior.

It's a remarkable claim to make, in a place as far east of Rome as New York is west.

But at its center lies a historical puzzle that has teased scholars and adventurers for decades: Did an ancient band of Roman legionnaires fight and work their way into China two millenniums ago, settling here on the edge of the Gobi Desert long before a man called Marco Polo ever set foot in old Cathay?

The village of Zhelaizhai, which may hold the key to the mystery, has so far refused to give away its secrets--such as who built its crumbling city wall centuries ago, where they came from, and why, even today, some residents of this remote area sport curly brown hair and light-colored eyes instead of the classic Chinese features of their curious neighbors.

But a cadre of history buffs and experts--armed with ancient documents, new discoveries, a dead man's unpublished manuscript and a dash of romanticism--is out to prove the theory that Roman soldiers once made China their home before Jesus was born, despite skeptics who dismiss the idea as fantasy.

The stakes, proponents say, are high.

"If we can uncover the truth about this, we'll have to rewrite world history, Roman history and Chinese history," Guan Heng, whose father devoted the last 20 years of his life to trying to verify the Roman presence in China, declared with a fair amount of hyperbole.

Guan's lofty ambitions are rooted in a mystery complete with epic battles, imperial pretensions, personal obsessions and colorful characters, all wrapped up in a tale even Marco Polo would have had trouble dreaming up.

The improbable quest for Romans in China begins with an American with an improbable name: Homer Hasenpflug Dubs.

A noted China scholar at Oxford University, Dubs was the earliest academic to flesh out the possibility of "a Roman city in ancient China," as he put it in a lecture before the China Society in London in 1955.

Dubs was intrigued by the mention of a city and county called Liqian in a government land register of AD 5, compiled at the height of the Han Dynasty.

At the time, Liqian (or Li-jien, in some transliterations) was also the ancient Chinese word for Rome or the Roman Empire--a name derived, perhaps, from Alexandria, then under Roman control and a place with which the Chinese had indirect contact.

Only two other Chinese cities on the official rolls, Kucha and Wen-siu, bore the names of foreign places. Both were given their names because immigrants from those foreign lands--ancient kingdoms in Central Asia--lived there.

If that was the case, Dubs thought, then why not Romans in Liqian? Because of the origins of the other cities' names, "it should follow that people from the Roman Empire immigrated into China and founded this city," he wrote in a monograph. The problem was how such an event could have come about. Even with the opening of the Silk Road, the fabled trade route connecting East and West, Roman travelers could not have reached China without passing through the Parthian Empire (encompassing modern-day Iran and Iraq, and beyond), one of Rome's sworn enemies.

Drawing on ancient texts, from Western classical poets to official Chinese court histories, Dubs proposed that the Romans of Liqian were legionnaires who had been swapped as prisoners of war or mercenaries from empire to empire until they finally wound up in China--more than 4,000 miles from home.

These Were 'Very Tough Men'
The soldiers first set out in 53 BC under the command of Marcus Licinius Crassus, who ruled Rome along with Julius Caesar and Pompey. The Greek biographer Plutarch records that Crassus led 42,000 men on an abortive campaign against Parthia.

The Parthians mowed down their attackers with a hail of arrows, wiping out half of the Romans at the Battle of Carrhae, near the border of modern Turkey and Syria. Ten thousand Roman troops were taken prisoner, a portion of whom were moved to Central Asia to help Parthia guard its eastern frontier, according to the historian Pliny.

Pliny doesn't mention how many of the legionnaires actually reached the East, a journey of more than 1,000 miles. But these were "very tough men," Dubs wrote, seasoned veterans who made their living by fighting.

"Then they disappeared from Western history," David Harris said.

Harris, an Australian writer, became enthralled by the long-lost city of Liqian in 1988, when he first came across Dubs' work. To get to the bottom of the legend, he sold his belongings and moved to China as an English instructor at Lanzhou University in modern Gansu province, where Liqian was reputed to be located.

"I thought, it's not another Yeti or another 'Chariots of the Gods.' This looks real," he said from his current home near Adelaide. "There are a lot of mysteries out there, a lot of rubbish, and I didn't want to get caught up in a wild goose chase. But this came from a very good source."

Teaching classes by day and pursuing his real passion during his off hours, Harris eventually met Guan Heng's father, Guan Yiquan, a Chinese-history professor whose own interest in Liqian had been piqued in the 1970s.

Both men believed, following Dubs' speculation, that a number of the Roman soldiers somehow managed to escape Parthia and flee about 500 miles northeast to the land of the Huns, who were, like the Romans, enemies of Parthia. There, the theory goes, they hired themselves out as mercenaries to the mighty Hun leader Jzh-Jzh, whose vast empire stretched across the grasslands of Mongolia.

A restless conqueror, Jzh-Jzh had always cast a hungry eye on China to the south. But in 36 BC, the Chinese army decisively defeated Jzh-Jzh's men at their encampment somewhere near today's Tashkent, the capital of Uzbekistan.

An account of that battle, recorded in the ancient "Book of the Late Han Dynasty," provides crucial evidence for Dubs' hypothesis that Romans came to China via the Huns.

Defense Strategies Typical of the Romans
The account describes Jzh-Jzh's citadel as being ringed by a double palisade of wood--a defensive barrier of stakes used only by Romans at the time.

Even more remarkable, more than 100 of Jzh-Jzh's foot soldiers lined up outside the gates with their shields linked in a "fish-scale formation," which Dubs identified as the testudo, a stratagem not found anywhere outside Rome.

"That's an astounding piece of evidence," Harris said. "Only the Romans linked their shields in the testudo formation. It's a highly difficult maneuver. How do you explain it?"

For him, the case seems clear: The soldiers were the lost legionnaires, who, though they were far from their native land, still did as the Romans did: arranged themselves in their usual battle formation.

The victorious Chinese brought back 145 prisoners with them to China, as recorded in the "Book of the Late Han Dynasty." These captives, Liqian buffs contend, were the Roman soldiers who had set out 17 years earlier to fight the Parthians.

Eager to make use of the POWs' experience, the Chinese installed them as border guards in what has always been a strategically vital point in China's northern frontier in modern Gansu province, Dubs postulated. This isolated outpost, which grew into a city and county, was then named Liqian in honor of the men who hailed from the West.

As a further bit of proof, official documents show that in AD 9, the city was briefly renamed by Emperor Wang Mang as Jie-lu, which means "prisoners taken in storming a city."

Eventually, the Roman legionnaires intermarried with the local population, then finally died out--well before the first recorded diplomatic contact between the Roman and Chinese empires in AD 166, when an envoy dispatched by Emperor Marcus Aurelius arrived in the Chinese imperial capital of Luoyang.

The last mention of Liqian came in AD 746, when the city was overrun by Tibetans.

But one question remained: Exactly where was Liqian?

From his and Guan Yiquan's calculations, Harris determined that all roads led to an area around Zhelaizhai, about a five-hour drive northwest of Lanzhou, the provincial capital.

In the spring of 1989, Harris and a group of other interested parties drove out to the area and stumbled across an ancient wall slightly west of the village. But the group was prevented from entering Zhelaizhai proper, where officials have since found further ruins--the tiny stretch of wall still visible today.

Both the remnants to the west and inside the village are rough stone structures consistent with Han Dynasty construction, evidence that a city existed in this area around the time Liqian was recorded in the imperial land register.

In Zhelaizhai, little is left of what originally stood. Local farmers have hacked away at the stone for personal use over the centuries.

Likewise, critics of the Liqian story have also emerged to hack away at a theory that Harris admits is still based on partial--if suggestive and tantalizing--evidence.

"We're amassing a mound of circumstantial evidence, but there's no clincher," he said. "There's no body we've dug up wearing Roman clothes and brandishing a sword."

Skeptics point to the lack of almost any physical proof to back up the claims of Liqian fans.

But it hasn't been for want of trying, supporters say. After Harris' discovery of the wall at Zhelaizhai sparked a frenzy of publicity, an Australian team of scientists applied to the government for permission to take aerial photographs and satellite images to determine if ruins lay beneath the village.

They were turned down--partly because of the restrictive political atmosphere and suspicion toward foreigners that prevailed after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre. Since then, interest has cooled among foreign researchers. Most Chinese scholars, too, have expressed little interest in the Liqian mystery.

Historian Liu Guanghua at Lanzhou University notes discrepancies in the dates when Liqian was supposedly established. Recent discoveries of Han Dynasty documents suggest that a city called Liqian was founded as early as 60 BC, two dozen years before any Roman legionnaires could have made it to China after the battle against Jzh-Jzh.

"Up to now, the theory's supporters haven't published anything to prove that their theory is well-grounded," Liu said.

Guan Heng responds by pulling out and stacking 19 manuscripts on his living room table. Between their plastic yellow covers are photographs, maps and writings containing a total of 450,000 Chinese characters--the exhaustive survey his father was working on when he died in 1998, laying out all the historical evidence for Romans in Liqian. The final two chapters were left unfinished.

The younger Guan has so far failed to find a publisher willing to print a book of such limited appeal.

"This is my father's contribution to the country," he said angrily. "The government should publish it."

Supporters of the Roman theory also counter the recently unearthed Han Dynasty records with fresh finds of their own from around Zhelaizhai: a Roman-style pot, a water bowl and, most intriguingly, a helmet inscribed with the Chinese words zhao an, or "one of the surrendered."

"The evidence that critics have is not as much as what we have," said Chen Zhengyi, who also teaches at Lanzhou University.

Some of the most compelling evidence, Chen said, can be found walking the dirt tracks around Zhelaizhai, a poor farming village of 70 families who live in clay-brick houses.

The area is home to people like Wang Zhonghua, a teenager with curly brown hair and light-colored eyes, and Yan Qishou, who has reddish hair.

Then there's Song Guorong, the man who is convinced of his heritage and who does boast some semi-European features.

To test such claims of a Western connection, a Beijing geneticist took blood and urine samples from 200 villagers last year and ran DNA tests. No results have been formally announced, but Guan said 40 of the test subjects showed some kind of genetic link with Europeans--perhaps not so surprising for an area along the old Silk Road, a point that enthusiasts concede.

For now, the case for a Roman city in ancient China remains largely circumstantial. Believers such as Harris acknowledge that a comprehensive argument will not be built in a day. Local officials, who have seized on Liqian as a tourist possibility--even erecting a Roman pavilion and statues of a Roman man and woman--say they would welcome an archeological excavation.

But best of all, perhaps, would be a source of confirmation hinted at in a now-lost footnote by a Dutch scholar named J. J. L. Duyvendak. According to the senior Guan shortly before he died, the Dutchman mentioned a set of eight terra-cotta plates, discovered in an imperial Chinese tomb, that depict scenes of the battle against Jzh-Jzh--and possibly of the soldiers who lined up in the strange fish-scale formation.

Rumors surfaced that the plates ended up in a private collection somewhere in the West, but the plates' existence and whereabouts remain a mystery within a mystery.

Harris is undeterred. He wrote a book about his experiences in search of Liqian and is talking with an Australian production company about a documentary, which he hopes would inspire further research.

"I'm very confident in saying that . . . we've got a site that was Rome in China, and nobody's proved me wrong," he said. "Liqian remains elusive and a mystery, and every time you get close, it gets further away.

"I'm not disturbed by the time that we're taking," he added. "We've already waited 2,000 years."

http://www.pip.com.au/~paceman/ROMANS%20IN%20CHINA.html


 
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Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 9:25 PM 

heard this story long ago. Interesting indeed. Of course, your compatriate Nardini will again come out and say those lands don't belong to china. lol

My wife and I went to italy this summer and liked your place. If these legionnairs had sth like a roman theatre or collesium then it would be proof enough.



    
This message has been edited by jackisme on Oct 10, 2004 9:26 PM


 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

AZZURO

October 10 2004, 9:25 PM 

This article makes mention of the possible origins of these "Romans" in Central Asia.

Please Read:

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/carrhae.shtml

Like other Romans of his time, the renowned General Marcus Licinius Crassus had never heard of silk. His sole concern one summer days in the year 53 B.C. was to destroy his foe, the barbarian Parthians (Persians). He had marched from Syria across the Euphrates river and had driven the enemy deep into the billowing sand dunes of what is now Iran. Near the city of Carrhae, his seven legions of men-at-arms and horsemen - some 40,000 in all - had just caught up with the Parthians. As the sun rose they were buckling into their armor.
This very morning, he had absent-mindedly donned a plain black garment instead of the proud scarlet of a Roman general. He had corrected his error hastily only after someone pointed it out. None of the signs, however, gave warning of the decisive role that silk was to play in his career.

In spite of the portents, Crassus was supremely confident. He had commanded many a winning army in his day and these barbarians had shown no sign of fight. True, they had stopped retreating at last, but this was all to the good. Crassus welcomed the chance to do battle, after which he could go home.

He ranged his troops in a classic Roman battle style called the "testudo" formation: hollow squares with twelve men on each side standing so close together that their shields overlapped like fish scales. Protecting each hollow square of foot soldiers was a prancing squadron of cavalry. Surely no enemy could breach these solid blocks of steel.

But it was the familiar story of an outmoded form of warfare suddenly facing a new, flexible style. The Parthians were mobile and tricky, and, in the manner of guerrillas, they refused to fight on the enemy's terms.

They evidently understood psychological warfare, also. To the Romans they looked more like beasts than men. They wore their hair long and bunched over their foreheads. Shaggy animal skins hung over their shoulders. They began the attack with noise - wild inhuman cries and the thump of hide-covered drums hung with bronze bells and copper rings. The sound, so the historian Plutarch wrote a century and a half later, was a "low dismal tone, a mixture of a wild beast's roar and a harsh thunder peal."

The Romans stood momentarily terrified at the uproar. Then the Parthians threw off their skin cloaks to reveal thick dazzling steel helmets and breatplates. Even their horses were armor-clad. Suddently they swooped in, unleashing a torrent of long arrows from powerful bows - weapons that made Roman bows look like toys. The arrows literally nailed the hands of the Romans to their shields and their feet to the ground. sometimes two men were impaled with a single shot.

Again and again the Parthian swept near, kicking up clouds of dust, wheeling just beyond reach of Roman swords, and releasing a fresh volley of arrows as they galloped away. (So the phrase "Parthian shot" was added to our language, meaning any damaging last-minute blow by word or deed.)

The Roman general's son, Publius, led a charge and died. The Parthians mounted his head on a spear and paraded it before the shattered legions. "This, O my countrymen, is my own peculiar loss!" Crassus cried, "but if anyone be concerned for my love of this best of sons, let him show it in revenge...."

For a time the Romans doggedly held their ground. Then just at noon when the sun was hightest, the Parthians staged their coup. As they charged the Romans with their drums sounding, they unfurled their banners. These were of a gleaming, shimmering material such as Roman had never seen before, brilliant in color, embroidered with gold. Shining like fire, the banners spelled power and invincibility. The Romans - exhausted and suffering from wounds and thirst, their "invincible" testudo shattered - broke ranks in terror before this awesome sight and fled.

Over the next two days the Parthians had little left to do but murder the wounded and mop up the stragglers. Some 20,000 Romans died and another 10,000 were taken prisoner. Crassus himself was lured into a trap and killed, and his head was sent home to the Parthian king.

It was one of the greatest defeats in Roman history. To the survivors, the side effects went unnoticed at the time: the glittering banners were the Roman's introduction to silk. It was a rude beginning, but silk was soon to be the most coveted item in their world and the basis of one of the greatest trade routes in history.

This road was to stitch the known world together from Pacific to Atlantic, and to mirror that area's history. Cities, empires, and civilizations rose to power and fell to waste along its way. A motley assortment of explorers, adventurers, merchants, warriors, and priests trudged its ruts. Ideas, philosophies, religions, and inventions flowed intermittently back and forth.

Even when wars raged around it and kingdoms toppled, the silk trade usually pressed on. It was more important empires. Silk was prized beyond belief, at times literally worth its weight in gold. It was a symbol of luxury, a treasure to be haggled for, fought for, died for.

Seventeen years later another small event was recorded, but its significance, too, went unnoticed by historians for centuries. In 36 B.C. a Chinese force attacked and captured a Central Asian town, Li-chien, some 3,700 miles east of Rome. It had been held by another band of barbarians, the Huns, but in the town the Chinese captured 145 foreign mercenary soldiers. There were three peculiar aspects to this town. The name, Li-chien, was one of the Chinese names later applied to the Roman Empire. It was protected by wooden stockades, a Roman technique. Its soldiers employed the testudo formation of overlapping shields.

Were those nameless soldiers of Li-chien a remnant of Crassus' army? If so, the battle of Carrhae provided another link with the history of silk because these foreign mercenaries were almost certainly the first "westerners" to set foot on the mighty Silk Road.

In the time of Crassus, few Romans had more than a vague awareness of territory east of Persia. The Chinese, similarly, heard only the faintest rumors of a world west of Central Asia. The two great empires were little oases of civilization, separated by vast, uninhabited stretches and barbarian hordes.

Though he little knew or cared, the ill-fated Crassus in his last hours on earth had glimpsed one of the wonders of ages.








...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

JACKISME

October 10 2004, 9:29 PM 

Jackisme Wrote:

"heard this story long ago. Interesting indeed. Of course, your compatriate Nardini will again come out and say those lands don't belong to china. lol"


Which lands and regions to you speak of, if I might ask?

Just curious.






...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 9:32 PM 

to Nardini, he thinks that all the land that in China's fringes don't belong to us, so Tibet, xinjiang, Gansu, Mongolia, Manchuria, which was the great central asian steppes where the great nomads roamed: the Huns, the Turks, the Mongols, the Urchins, etc.


 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

JACKISME

October 10 2004, 9:55 PM 

Jackisme Wrote:

"to Nardini, he thinks that all the land that in China's fringes don't belong to us, so Tibet, xinjiang, Gansu, Mongolia, Manchuria, which was the great central asian steppes where the great nomads roamed: the Huns, the Turks, the Mongols, the Urchins, etc."


A Few Questions & Points:

1) By "us" I suppose you are meaning ethnic Han Chinese, yes?

2) By "belonging", do you mean lands illegally siezed through imperial conquest the late 19th thru the mid 20th centuries?

3) What exactly do you mean by China's fringes? Are you refering to the historical realms of Chinese civilization and existance, or the current communist nation-state?

4) Why would the Mongols, Turks and Huns "belong" to China? This suggestion has disturbing implications for most of the peoples of Central and Southwestern Asia.

5) On a side not, Eastern Turkestan(Xinjiang) is a big place. The western most mountainous "fringes" of the Taklamakan are about a Chinese as a Philly Cheesteak Sandwhich...







...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 10:09 PM 

oh I see, here is the ambush. So what are you going to do about it? I guess you are still having your pan-iranism wet dreams? Well, a word of advice, you better look over your ass cause maybe there won't even be a iran tomorrow just like the iraq today. BTW, iran doesn't belong to the iranians, it belongs to the persians who are not muslims to start with. See I can throw shiit at you too.

I didn't hear you guys cry about the Russians taking over land, never heard you cry about yourself taking overland. Why us? Yes, us means chinese which include over 50 ethnicities with Han being the dominant.



    
This message has been edited by jackisme on Oct 10, 2004 10:10 PM


 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

JACKISME

October 10 2004, 10:26 PM 

HHHhhhmmm...Somebody has "issues".


Jackisme attempted to write:

"oh I see, here is the ambush. So what are you going to do about it? I guess you are still having your pan-iranism wet dreams? Well, a word of advice, you better look over your ass cause maybe there won't even be a iran tomorrow just like the iraq today. BTW, iran doesn't belong to the iranians, it belongs to the persians who are not muslims to start with. See I can throw shiit at you too.

I didn't hear you guys cry about the Russians taking over land, never heard you cry about yourself taking overland. Why us? Yes, us means chinese which include over 50 ethnicities with Han being the dominant."


Padishah responds in point-order format:

1) There is no attempted "ambush" on my part. I am simply engaging in an argumentative debate, from a differing point of view.

2) I don't know what you mean by "what I am going to do about it". Perhaps I should become an activast and lobby congress.

3) I am not sure where you get the idea that I am a "Pan-Iranist".

4) I do not see what Iraq has to do with this dicussion.

5) Are you suggesting that you personally have the power to "wipe" Iran of the face of this Earth? Do you read alot of comic books?

6) Persians? Iranians? Muslims? HUH?

7) Most "Persians" I know are not too happy about the Russian Empire's annexation of Central Asia in the 19th century. Just as most Chinese view Russian claims to Siberia as nule and void.

8) Modern China is perhaps the least ethnically and racially diverse nation on this Earth. I suggest you read a book called "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond, it is a New York Times Best Seller that just might open your own eyes to the world, just a little...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393317552/102-8330374-7932916







...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 10:32 PM 

Yes, we have issues here. You are acting just like the westerners that point finger at Iran and claim iran is violating human rights and you would jump right out and say nay. So why do you think that you have the rights to point your finger at what we do with our own nation? Should we chinese now join the rest of the western countries and cry foul about your human rights violation? You have to first understand who are foes and how are friends and should not antagonize your friends at a time when you need them the most.

NO. I am referring to Uncle Sam and his jewish friends who are itching to wipe out your beloved Persia. So I don't think any lobbying from an iranian against China will lend any credibility anywhere but in your own little dreamy minds.

Got it!


 
 

(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 10:44 PM 

Jackisme Wrote:

"NO. I am referring to Uncle Sam and his jewish friends who are itching to wipe out your beloved Persia. So I don't think any lobbying from an iranian against China will lend any credibility anywhere but in your own little dreamy minds."


Uh...I am American kiddo.

As far as the Chinese are concerned, I could care less about how they treat their "own" people". It is the non-Chinese that I worry for. The various Turkic and Iranian groups that were unjustily conquered by China in the late 19th century, and who find their very existance as a people threatened.

Of course, China could just "fix" the whole problem by allowing the mountainous western 10% to form their own nation, free of Chinese rule and racial oppression(ther are no Chinese there, anyhow).






...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 10:50 PM 

Well all the 1.3 billion chinese are chinese with different ethnicities, such as Han, Mongols, Tibetans, muslims, koreans, etc, etc. They are all chinese as a result what we do with them is none of your business. Same goes for your beloved america where there are even more nationalities and ethnicities.

Well, from now on, I will cry about Iran's mistreatment of your women, and the other ethnic minorities until you stop your un-called for antagnism towards us. Oh, you muslims should leave persian too and persia belongs to the persians who were not muslims.

See, I guess you really like that, my american friend.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130182000?open&of=ENG-IRN

amnesty international


IRAN

Open letter from Amnesty International to members of the Sixth
Majles-e Shoura-ye Eslami


    
This message has been edited by jackisme on Oct 10, 2004 10:52 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 10:56 PM 

A word of advise, my iranian friend, oh no, american friend. If you want to talk about china's human rights issues, I advise you to open a separate thread and I will "help" you there; otherwise, please stop highjacking this thread.

You americans.....lol


 
 

(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

JACKISME

October 10 2004, 11:26 PM 

"A word of advise, my iranian friend, oh no, american friend. If you want to talk about china's human rights issues, I advise you to open a separate thread and I will "help" you there; otherwise, please stop highjacking this thread."


1) ONE MORE TIME!

Listen carefully now...

I-AM-NOT-IRANIAN

My views are not that of the majority of "Persians" on this forum, and tend to fall inline more with that of the Turks, in regards to China's annexation of Eastern Turkistan in Central Asia. Most Iranian posters on this forum will most likely agree with this remark.

2) The majority of Iranians could care less about Chinese involvement and ambitions in Central Asia, until perhaps the Chinese lay "historic" claims to Samarkand, Tajikstan, etc...Then they will suddenly care

3) I have not highjacked this thread. If you feel that I have, I suggest you complain to a moderator.

4) I could care less what the Chinese do to their own people in regards to human rights. My worries arise when the Chinese lay claim to a history and culture that is not their own.

5) I could care less about how the Iranians treat the female segement of the population of Iran, and I suggest for your own mental health that you do the same...







...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 11:27 PM 

If you iranians, oh no, americans care less about us chinese, why the hell are you dumbpadishah spending all this time accusing us of land grabbing? You are one dumb irianian, on no american doodool. lol

Iran is a terrorist state and most westerners will also agree with that. so What?


    
This message has been edited by jackisme on Oct 10, 2004 11:32 PM


 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

JACKISME

October 10 2004, 11:38 PM 

Jackisme Wrote:

"If you iranians, oh no, americans care less about us chinese, why the hell are you dumbpadishah spending all this time accusing us of land grabbing? You are one dumb irianian, on no american doodool. lol"


Actually, us yanks see China as the only real enemy left.

Besides, I accuse America, Russia, China, India, Israel, and the Arabs of "land grabbing" and politcal and military interevtion into the lives of others all the time on this board.

Hell, I have managed to even anger most of the "Persians" on this board for my percieved "anti-Iranian" remarks. They would very much like to see me hung by my doodool.

Are you new here, by any chance?


P.S...You might want to refrain from the childish insults.





...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 11:41 PM 

yes, I am new here and however long you have been on this forum doesn't mean a thing to me. Whatever you are doing is meaningless because there ain't nothing you can do about it. China is an empire and all empires have different kinds of people living in them. Nothing new or wrong with that.

Are you really american, but why don't you identify yourself as american?


 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

JACKISME

October 10 2004, 11:43 PM 

"Are you really american, but why don't you identify yourself as american? "


Californian, actually.

Why, do I have to run around telling everyone this little fact?




...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...




 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 10 2004, 11:45 PM 

because your interest and your participation on this forum clearly points to an iranina, rather than an american. But, wait, wait. You attitude towards us "lesser" people and your conscientious ways towards us land-grabbing, human rights violators does belie your identity or your self-claimed identity as an American? I guess you do what a roman does in rome, huh?


 
 


(Login drkstr)
Elite WAFF Vet Club

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 11 2004, 8:20 AM 

where exaclty do you live jack?


Among other evils which being unarmed brings you it causes you to be despised - Niccolo Machiavelli

http://www.savethebritishforces.org.uk

 
 

AzzurroItalia
(Login AzzurroItalia)
EXPERT POSTER

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 11 2004, 8:43 PM 

You're pure evil, Padishah. You had to start with the Battle of Carrhae! LOL! Damn Arabs for abandoning us!


Marina Militaria Italiana! The best navy!
Italia triumphs again!

“Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.”--Napoleone Buonaparte


I support Kyle Broslowski

 
 

(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

AZZURO

October 12 2004, 12:17 AM 

"You're pure evil, Padishah. You had to start with the Battle of Carrhae! LOL! Damn Arabs for abandoning us!"


Sorry, Azzuro.

No disrespect to the mighty Roman Legions was intended, the all-around most effecient and longest-lasting war machine ever assembled by a civilzed society.

On a side not, I once had a history professor that spoke of a battle that almost took place between the Roman Legions and the Chinese Army at roughly this time frame, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

Any information on this one?






...I Don't Want To Start Any Blasphemous Rumors...

...But I Think That God's Got A Sick Sense Of Humor...





    
This message has been edited by Padishah on Oct 12, 2004 12:23 AM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 12 2004, 12:38 AM 

Padishah,

There was record that the Tang army that had control over central asia after pushing the Eastern Turks out of asia and towards Europe fought with a Arab army and lost, effectively ending China's control over central asia. This is recorded in our historical records.


 
 

AzzurroItalia
(Login AzzurroItalia)
EXPERT POSTER

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 12 2004, 9:48 PM 

Sorry, Azzuro.

No disrespect to the mighty Roman Legions was intended, the all-around most effecient and longest-lasting war machine ever assembled by a civilzed society.

On a side not, I once had a history professor that spoke of a battle that almost took place between the Roman Legions and the Chinese Army at roughly this time frame, somewhere near the Caspian Sea.

Any information on this one?



LOL, I know, thank you. Really? A Battle between the Roman Legions between the Chinese army? Sounds interesting, I know nothing about it, but I will look it up!


Marina Militaria Italiana! The best navy!
Italia triumphs again!

“Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.”--Napoleone Buonaparte


I support Kyle Broslowski

 
 
Anonymous
(Login Emperor_Taizong)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 13 2004, 1:37 AM 

possible.........there were more japanese, koreans, arabs, living in china than romans, and they were all integrated into chinese society.

china didn't fight rommans though, only enemies from west we fought were arabs.....and probably persians..


 
 

(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

AZZURO

October 13 2004, 7:34 PM 

Azzuro Wrote:

"""LOL, I know, thank you. Really? A Battle between the Roman Legions between the Chinese army? Sounds interesting, I know nothing about it, but I will look it up!"""


Well, my history professor made sure to explain that battle ALMOST took place somewhere near the Caspian Sea, but that the two armies never actually met.

To my understanding, both sides had been conducting operations on their own areas of the Eurpoean/Asian steppe against the infamous Huns, both closing in towards the Caspian Basin, respectivally.

It was the Hunnic horseman the potentially could have caused a "bloodbath" between the Roman and Chinese empires.















 
 
Wise Padishah
(Premier Login Padishah)
Arab Legion

EMPEROR TAIZONG

October 13 2004, 8:02 PM 

EMPEROR TAIZONG WROTE:


"""possible.........there were more japanese, koreans, arabs, living in china than romans, and they were all integrated into chinese society."""


True.




"""china didn't fight rommans though, only enemies from west we fought were arabs.....and probably persians.."""


Well, the one big battle between China and the Arabs was the battle of Talas, fought somewhere in modern Kazakistan or Kyrgyzstan. In this battle, both sides made use of large numbers of indigenous groups within their respective territorial realms.

For the Arabs, this meant lots of western steppe peoples from the area in and around the Iranian Plateau, mostly Iranic(2/3 of the forces, which was a 150,000 man strong army), which included many Persians.

For the Chinese, this meant Eastern Steppe people, like the various Turko-Mongol groups of the region(1/3 of the Chinese forces, which was a 30,000 man force).

Here is "wiki's" take on he battle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talas

The simple fact is that the usual Chinese opponents & enemies in Central Asia were various Turko-Mongolian peoples, as I am sure your are very well aware of.

China may have had conflicts with various Iranic peoples in Central Asia, such as nomadic Scythians, Sarmatians, Sakas and the like, as well as some minor conflicts with the Sogdians(I am researching into this) and the Parthians, but I know of no open warfare between China and Persia in the last 2,500 years.

As far as the notion of a battle or war between the Persians, by which you must mean one of the Perisan empires, and that of the Chinese , I am not aware of one. I would be very curious if anyone has information about this topic, though.










    
This message has been edited by Padishah on Oct 13, 2004 9:01 PM


 
 
Anonymous
(Login jackisme)

Re: “Digging for Romans in China”

October 14 2004, 2:01 AM 

Gao Xianzhia is ethnic Korean and it is not uncommon for ethnic minorities to hold high offices in Tang Dynasty.




The Battle of Talas in AD 751 was a conflict between the Arab Abbasid Caliphate and the Chinese Tang Dynasty over the control of Central Asia. Chinese infantry were routed by Arab cavalry near the bank of the River Talas after the supporting Qarluq mercenaries defected to the Abbasids and cut off the infantry from the rest of the Chinese troops. The commander of the Tang forces, Gao Xianzhi, escaped.

Due to this defeat and the domestic rebellion of An Lushan and subsequent warlordism, the Tang ceased to be influential in Central Asia. The local Tang tributaries then switched to the authority of the Abbasids, and the introduction of Islam was thus facilitated among the Turkic peoples. Well supported by the Abbasids, the Qarluqs established a state that would be conquered in late 9th century by invaders who founded the Kara-Khanid Khanate.

In the long run the battle is significant because it marked the western limit of Chinese cultural and political influence, thereby determining that Central Asia would be more influence by Islamic culture than by Chinese culture. The technology of paper making was also spread to the Central Asia and the Middle East as the skilled Chinese POWs were ordered to produce paper in Samarkand.

The exact location of the battle has not been confirmed but is believed to be in Kyrgyzstan, southeast of Zhambyl (previously named Taraz) in present day Kazakhstan.





 
 
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