By Sarah-Ann Smith, Asheville Citizen-Times
Dec. 11, 2004 11:10 a.m.
My recent trip to Spain has prompted some thoughts about our post-Sept. 11, 2001, relationship to the Islamic world. A wonderful book, "The Ornament of the World" by Maria Rosa Menocal, had excited my interest in Spain's medieval Islamic period, and I had to see the relics of that beautiful culture for myself.

The highlight of my visit was the awe-inspiring Cordoba mosque. Now a Christian cathedral, it is so vast that its mysterious Islamic flavor still dominates. This immense space, the equivalent of about four city blocks, reflects the best in the religious tradition of Spain's Islamic rulers.

The structure's history symbolizes the universality of the human need to connect with the divine. The Islamic - and now once again Christian - edifice rests on and incorporates the remains of a Roman temple which had been converted into a Christian church by the Visigoths who ruled that part of Spain until they were defeated by the invading Muslims in the 8th century.

The mosque's dominant feature is a forest of horseshoe- shaped arches of alternating red brick and white stone which define and separate the aisles. They go on and on, seemingly into an endless space. Standing in the midst of them, one is caught up in the timelessness and universality of the spiritual impulse, deeper than any specific religious tradition.

The experience recalled my visit to the only living mosques I've ever entered, in Indonesia. The tall, open architecture, punctuated by columns, filled with kneeling worshipers, shoeless to show respect for the space and the God beyond it, evokes a sense of calm and peace that is quite extraordinary in contrast to the dominant idea we have of the Muslim religion, based on political events of the past several years.

It is often difficult to reach beyond those events to recognize the human, and even religious, bonds that connect us to the best in the Islamic tradition. In this respect, perhaps we can learn something from Spain's experience.

The other great remnant of the Islamic Spanish culture is the Alhambra, the collection of palaces, gardens and fortresses that stands high above the city of Granada. The buildings' open style, peaceful spaces and still-working fountains, Muslim hallmarks, reflect the style and underlying philosophy of the architecture of the mosques themselves.

More important than the remains of the buildings is the culture they recall. In Islamic Spain adherents of all the three great Western religions - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - coexisted under a government that recognized their common biblical foundations. The Islamic system protected and gave each a place in the society as a whole - a place more tolerant by far than that accorded Jews and Muslims in the succeeding Christian era, dominated by the horrors of the Spanish Inquisition.

As Menocal notes, "This was the chapter of Europe's culture when Jews, Christians and Muslims lived side by side and, despite their intractable differences and enduring hostilities, nourished a complex culture of tolerance ... it found expression in the often unconscious acceptance that contradictions ... could be positive and productive."

The era ended in 1492, with the Spanish Christian monarchs Isabella and Ferdinand conquering the Alhambra, the last Muslim stronghold, and also expelling the Jews from Spain (as well as financing Christopher Columbus's journey of discovery).

Some Jews remained, perhaps as many as half the total number, along with an Islamic remnant, both being required to convert to Christianity. But, for the Jews at least, as contemporary Spanish writer Antonio Munoz Molina notes, "those who stayed behind ended up as alien in their homeland as those who left ... scorned not only by those who should have been their brothers in their new religion but also by those who remained loyal to the abandoned faith."

Thus, Molina demonstrates, present-day Spain continues to struggle with a past characterized by a diversity that its Christian rulers spurned 500 years ago. The Muslim issue has again become one that must be dealt with, and not only in terms of the terrorist threat demonstrated so tragically in last spring's train bombings that killed 192 people.

Spain currently has an active Islamic population, reaching close to a million, whose needs the Spanish authorities realize they must consider. Spanish Prime Minister Zapatera has called for "an alliance of cultures" between the West and the Islamic world, to isolate the violent fringe.

In 2003 a new mosque was opened in Granada to serve the city's estimated 15,000 Muslims. It was financed in large part by a United Arab Emirates sheik, to show, in the aftermath of Sept. 11, he reportedly said, "that Islam is fundamentally moral rather than political in nature." At the opening ceremony Granada's deputy mayor expressed the hope that the mosque would promote the religious tolerance that characterized the city in the past.

This event was far from free of controversy. The mosque's construction was delayed for years, partly by the opposition and lawsuits of local residents. And since the March bombings, many Spaniards have been even more nervous about the increasing numbers of North African Muslim immigrants, since the main suspects in the bombings are Moroccans. Others, however, recognize the importance of a dialogue with moderate Muslims. Spaniards' ambivalence is currently being played out in the trial of suspected terrorists, at which the former and current prime ministers are testifying.

From the point of view of an ordinary traveler, it appears that the understandable nervousness in the wake of the March bombings has not resulted in a paranoid anticipation of repeated terrorist acts. And the tourist industry at least is more than happy to highlight the magnificence of the remains of Spain's Islamic past.

Back home, I keep thinking of Spain's experience, contemporary and historical, in all its complexity, and realize that, for better or worse, we're all in this post- Sept. 11 world together - Christian, Muslim, Jew and, yes, secularist.

And the only way to genuine peace and security, and freedom from fear, is through tolerant acceptance and appreciation of our differences and mutual encouragement of the best in all our traditions. We could do far worse in this respect than imitating Spain's Islamic era at its best.

Sarah-Ann Smith, a former diplomat, holds graduate degrees in international politics and in theology. She is currently a community member of the Citizen-Times editorial board.

Source: http://www.citizen-times.com/cache/article/editorial/72183.shtml

© 2004 Asheville Citizen-Times



Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

Wow, they let the Jews and Christians live, what great mercy of them, what starkling example of secularism. Jizya was still there, wasn't it? Fact remains that to excel, one usually had to be Islamic (unless you are exceptionally talented).

I guess the rest of Islamic civilization was so fundamentalist in "convert or die", Islamic Spain shines as paradise.


I'm sorry, this "civilization" has nothing to teach modern day liberal world. Another thing, Andalusia only stands out because it was that one rare example of an ISLAMIC dynasty showing streaks of tolerance, because secularism and tolerance was no stranger to the Greeks, Romans, Persians, Hindus, Chinese, etc. Yeah, the fact that there was an Andalusia, shows that Islam is also capable of being human.

Another thing we need to look at, is why they were forced to become secular. No, they didn't have a sudden change of heart. They were a minority religious dynasty (Islamic) over a majority Christian population, "convert or die" couldn't work on the whole population, and the majority had enough economic resources to survive whatever Jaziya and pogroms came their way. The government HAD to change, just like the Mughals had to change their Islamic-ness in India.


If anyone should take heart from this, should be the ayatollahs and maulvis, this thing has nothing to teach in today's world, even Bush is more liberal compared to the Almoravids.

Ok I'm just gonna give you a brief lesson on the tax system imposed upon Muslim lands.
listen up.

2 kinds of taxes to be imposed on inhibitants of muslim lands, according to Islamic Law.
Zakah and Jizyah.

Zakah is a tax imposed on muslims (2.5% of annual income).
Jizyah is imposed upon non-muslims, EXACT amount except the difference in name. Thats it.

Explain to me how this is cruel and unfair?

Oh yeah those evil muslim bastards, how dare they have a system of taxes! oh wait, modern liberal goveernments have taxes too. UNBELIEVABLE!
Hell, everyone's doing it so why do you end up with your panties in a bunch, really?

Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

Why Jizyah? And how much are the taxes for both Muslims and non-Muslims?

It is prohibited to kill non-Muslims in Muslim lands or under the Islamic ruling: "Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: 'O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.' (The Noble Quran, 18:86)" In this Noble Verse we see that if the enemy wants to do us harm, then we must punish those who did us harm. Otherwise, we must treat the enemy civilians and the innocents with kindness.

The Muslims have to pay taxes (which is 2.5 percent of their annual income) under the name of "Zakah" to the "Muslim Financial Institute" or the "House of the Muslim Money" which all goes to provide welfare to the poor and the needy citizens; from both Muslims and non-Muslims. The poor and the needy (such as the Orphans, Widows and the disabled) from the Muslims are exempt from paying taxes.

The non-Muslims have to pay the same amount under the name of "Jizyah", which is taxes that don't go to help poor and needy Muslims, but instead, it goes to the government to (1) Provide protection for them since they are a minority; (2) Provide means for them to practice their religions freely by building Temples or Churches for them.


As I mentioned above for the non-Muslims, there are exemptions for the poor, for females and children (according to Abu Hanifah), for slaves, and for monks and hermits.

It is important to know that the law in the Islamic State applies to everyone; both Muslims and non-Muslims equally. Meaning, that murderers and rapists get executed, adulterers and adulteresses get flogged 100 stripes, etc...

Muslim citizens are not superior over the non-Muslim citizens in the Islamic State. All people are treated equally as far as the Islamic Law is concerned.

If Muslims conquered a State by a war, then only those who fought the Muslims are to be taken as slaves. But then later, they must be given their freedom if they request it and be paid money too to get a jump start in life, according to the Noble Quran.



Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

"Spain's Islamic Era Can Teach Us Plenty About Tolerance"

Here is a thought : "Spain's Islamic era" was from 700 to 1500. Nothing really new here.

Time to grew-up, people. A religion cannot rely for milleniums on its long gone achievements or tolerance.


"Come the millenium month 12, In the home of the greatest power, the village idiot will come forth to be acclaimed the leader" Nostradamus, 1555
"One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures." George W. Bush
One man saw it coming...

Yes, it can teach us a lot about tolerance if we were born more than 1500 years ago. However, 1500 years later, such a statement is laughable.



St. James the Moorslayer

History and Civilization: Spain's Islamic Era Can Teach Us Plenty About Tolerance

fully agree.

you folks missed the point didn't you?

If it can be done hundreds of years ago, why cant that sense of unity and trust be repeated? (note however, I'm not suggesting that Spain should be reconquered...doesnt make sense and not like its possible in any case)
Fact is, both communities are now living in a state of deep suspicions about each other and in some quarters, may I say, deep resentment? Considering Europe is gripped with worry due to the rise in Muslim population, perhaps a gentle reminder is needed to remind them that this has happened before in history and it wasnt all doom and gloom.

If a past community has achieved it in the past, yes boys, something can be RE-learn from it.

Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

Spain was forcefully conquered by Islamic horde - how the hell does that show tolerance! If they wanted to show us tolerance they shouldn't have invaded Spain in the first place in my opinion.


Marina Militaria Italiana! The best navy!
Italia triumphs again!

“Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.”--Napoleone Buonaparte

I support Kyle Broslowski

In those days, everything was conquered mostly through force, no one's innocent from it but thats not what the thread is about, is it?

We are talking about the civilization, if it couldnt be more clearer enough for you.

Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

How animosity against others blind us. Imagine that. Greeks and Romans were great armies. Yet similar achievements by "those people" (Muslims) do not make their armies great but a mere "horde".

AzzurroItalia:

"Spain was forcefully conquered by Islamic horde - how the hell does that show tolerance!"

It probably shows tolerance the same way as the Allies' invasion of Iraq shows liberation.

Yes, Spain was forcefully conquered. But then isn't it what every army do? The point is not the forceful conquest, but the level of tolerance shown after the conquest towards all.
Do you know that Muslim Spain was a safe haven for the Jews from Christian persecution?

Ok, a little background on the Muslim invasion of Spain and the subsequent periods of tolerance and intolerance which occurred throughout the Iberian Peninsula:

I'll try to be brief.

First of all one must appreciate the chaotic situation of the Visgothic Spanish Kingdom in the year 711 to grasp why the Peninsula was taken with such speed and why any sort of tolerant deals were made.

The whole Iberian peninsula was embroiled in a 20 year civil war (due to a dissagreement on who should succeed to the throne) when the weaker Visgoth party "invited" the armies of the North African Mahgreb to assist them in battle with promises of loot.
The main Visgothic force, exhausted from the ongoing war, sunsequently succommed to the combined Visgoth/North African armies and was sent fleeing North.
The North Africans (which were a majority Berber force commanded by a Arab officer corps which also made up their nobility) noticed the exhausted state of the realm and instead of taking the promised loot and leaving they called for more troops intending to add more territory to their increasing Muslim realm.
This was where the first of many shrewd aggreements were made between Muslims and Christians.
As their numbers were lacking and in order to facilitate the conquest ( No one knew there would be such a rapid Visgothic collapse) the Muslim nobility made a deal with the Visgoths. Any Visgoth noble house who agreed to become subjects of the Muslim crown, as well as fight for them, would be allowed to keep his fief and rank. Those who decided to convert to Islam would be free of taxation and would gain higher noble status while those who remained Christian (but loyal to the Muslim Crown) would be taxed and achieve a ower but secure noble status. Needless to say, many Visgoth nobility chose this route as a way of preserving their power and family line.

When most of the peninsula was conquered and the remaining Christian holdouts were bottled up high in the Asturias the Muslims then started to think of how they, as a small minority (100,000 to 175,000 max) were to govern a state which had about 4 million subjects.
This is when more shrewd agreements were thought up.
With most of the population christian it made sense to allow them to stay christian because this way they could be taxed. Those who decided to convert to Islam were free from taxation and of course found the avenues for upward mobility more open. The Jewish minority was given the same privileges as the christians being free to worship as they wished as long as they respected the muslim crown and paid their taxes.
This tolerance allowed the small number of musilm athorities to rule over a larger population for the crucial beginning of their realm. Now, over thundreds of years as the Christian reconquest put ever increasing stress on the realms more and more Christians converted to Islam to escape the larger and larger tax burden. This became so bad that Muslim authorities enacted legislation forbidding Christians to convert to Islam. Most Christians ignored them and there were few punishments for breaking the laws.
It can be said that the conversions robbed the Muslim realms of revenue but it did give them a larger and larger fighting force as many of those converted Visgoth/Iberian people did not want to lose all that they gained by conversion. Over the generations they felt they were nothing but Muslims and would fight to the death to defend their culture and faith.
Over time, the whole reconquest was becoming not a fight between peoples but essentially a continuation of the civil war.

So the tolerance which came out of the age of Al-Andalus did not come from some benevolent factor inherent in Islam or it's culture (all cultures have benevolent as well as fanatical sides) but came from the intelligent and politically shrewd decisions made by the Mulsim conquerors upon occupying the Iberian Peninsula.

And of course where there is tolerance there is intolerance.

Now, as the Muslim nobility was made up of a variety of people (Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians, etc) who were clannish in nature, they started to feud amongst themselves. This ended up in the breakup of the Caliphate into smaller realms known as the Taifa kingdoms. It was during the Taifa Kingdoms that the tolerance and cultural revolution reached it's peak in the peninsula. The kingdoms were weaker and so more lenient and as they became more cosmopolitan they became more culturally decadent (at least in the eyes of fanatics).
It was during this time that the powerful Almohads took control across the water in North Africa. They were pure fanatics, the Taliban of their age.
In an ironic twist of fate the golden age of Islam and of the Taifa Kingdoms came to the end much like the Visgoth Kingdom before them.
One Taifa kingdom invited the Almohads over and when seeing the disgusting decadence (at least in their eyes) and the weakness of the Taifas the Almohads swept through the Taifa Kingdoms bringing their fiery conservative brand of Islam to all corners of the realms.
The Almohads weren't nice either. They oppressed the population and massacred many in the name of religion (much like the crusaders did in the holy land years later). And the Almohads weren't only nasty to Christians and Jews, they were nasty to moderate Muslims too, especially if they were of Arabic origin. You see, there ws much racism between the Arab nobility and their Berber forces. The Arab nobility looked down on the majority Berber soldiers as much as they did to others and the Berbers didn't forget this either. As the Almohads were of Berber origin they unseated and oppressed the Arabs causing many of them to evacuate the Iberian Peninsula entirely.
As with most fanatical groups the Almohads were destined to fall and a second generation of Taifa Kingdoms were set up but they were weaker than before and besides a similar incursion by the later Almoravids (also fanatical and from Morocco) the Islamic age of Spain was destined to slowly, but surely fade away.

This is only a slice of the history of Al-Andalus and more to give balance to the thread's argument for those who may not know too much about it.

Like all ages, the Islamic age of Spain had it's impressive moments as well as it's embarrasing and destructive moments. It was an fascinating time and great to research for anyone interested in interfaith and intercultural relations. But keep in mind it is not the best model to follow or the last model to come.

I'm stopping now as I'm tired of writing. I hope I didn't bore you guys

"2 kinds of taxes to be imposed on inhibitants of muslim lands, according to Islamic Law.
Zakah and Jizyah.

Zakah is a tax imposed on muslims (2.5% of annual income).
Jizyah is imposed upon non-muslims, EXACT amount except the difference in name. Thats it."

Tha Zakah tax is 2.5%, but the Jizyah was much higher, like 11%-33% of the income.

The Islamic law also authorised for the muslim rulers to slay the warriors, and the men, and take women and children slaves.

The Islamic laws also prohibited construction, and maintainence of all unislamic holy places (temples, synagouges, churches etc.), and authorised destruction and conversion of those holy sites.

I dont feel like refuting your claims as I already posted earlier which deals with thw exact subjects that you brought forward.

If you decide not to believe them and instead trust your own conclusions, so be it.

I feel that no amount of explanation and refutement from me nor other muslims will change your views, am I right?

Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

Yes, Spain was forcefully conquered. But then isn't it what every army do? The point is not the forceful conquest, but the level of tolerance shown after the conquest towards all.
Do you know that Muslim Spain was a safe haven for the Jews from Christian persecution?


If the Muslims showed so much "tolerance" then why is it that they can't learn from themselves today?


Marina Militaria Italiana! The best navy!
Italia triumphs again!

“Italy unfortunately has been long excluded from the number of European powers. If Italians today are worthy of resuming their rights, someday they will see their country arise with glory among the powers of the earth.”--Napoleone Buonaparte

I support Kyle Broslowski

"If the Muslims showed so much "tolerance" then why is it that they can't learn from themselves today?"

Really? are each and every muslims intolerant of other cultures today?
Do you have empirical data to prove just that?

I'm guessing...not.

Justice Without Force Is Helpless.
Force Without Justice Is Tyrannical.

Actually spain was never fully conquered, there were constant raid on muslim territories. In the end the occupation of spain led to the deportation of all muslim, the catholics never accepted that spain should be muslim.

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Victory or death for the Gaul

ok this pic is funny, look at this bigg muscular maan, ohh gosh scary.

look down, lol, tinnnnnyyyyyy. lol.

Ustixuna, you're an idiot.

[quote]If the Muslims showed so much "tolerance" then why is it that they can't learn from themselves today?[/quote]

You are talking about Muslims as if they were a single people. Well, they ain't. Islam has a different flavour in every country. Take the US for example, how many black American girls wear a Hajib? Not many...or take Iran: they allow Christians and other non-Islamic religions to practise their religions as they see fit, including public celebration of christmas. Try doing the same in Saudia-Arabia and you will be shot/cut up within seconds.

The problem that Islam faces is that it was adopted by many civilisations that have not evolved to the same social standard as our western societies. The problem is a cultural one, not a religious one.

Ustixuna, you're an idiot.


Hmm, how u shut up, and leave me the hell alone.

ok?

ok this pic is funny, look at this bigg muscular maan, ohh gosh scary.

look down, lol, tinnnnnyyyyyy. lol

I think it's pretty normal, are you horse or what.

--------------------------------------------
Victory or death for the Gaul

Oops, I just noticed that I got the order of the Almohad and the Almoravid invasions mixed up.

First came the Almoravids and then came the Almohads. That is the right order.

Anyway, both were intolerant but the Almoravids were the worst.

Sorry about the mistake. It was late and I was tired.

Runekeeper, I dun care what the hell that book of your says, Islamic states never gave equal rights, maybe they WERE un-Islamic then, but nevertheless, centuries of "un-Islamic" practice in the name of Islam has made that un-Islam into Islam.

^ errr... are you talking about the untouchables among Hindus?

LOL, are you trying to make a pitiful apologist out of me? Justify your crimes by saying "they also do it". Well sorry buddy, I won't fall for that, some disgusting $hit has been happening post-tsunami about supplies not being given to the Dalits, but where do you see people supporting and justifying that? On the other hand, no Islamic voice will condemn the despotism of Islamic tyrants throughout the last 1000 years.

"Runekeeper, I dun care what the hell that book of your says, Islamic states never gave equal rights, maybe they WERE un-Islamic then, but nevertheless, centuries of "un-Islamic" practice in the name of Islam has made that un-Islam into Islam."


Excellent post!

The islamic army crossed the spanish french border and were stopped at poitiers, their invasion was a barbaric wave of horse men and not how alxeander or hernan cortes did it. colonialism is justified, but not the islamic or mongol expansions as they were inferior to who they were conquering and could only destroy advanced improvements instead of adding to them.

how can the islamic tax be 2.5 percent? the whole government would starve to death. All schlorary studies say that the islamic tax was very high.