Since this wall was created to keep out the mongols and other nomadic tribes, why didn't it work, and was it China's greatest blunder?????


As we all know the Mongols did cross over and overran China.




HBN please tell me how the Mongols over ran your homeland. Also they were smaller in numbers how could you Chinese let this happen...... Please enlighten me HBN.........

The Mongols only managed to over-run it, ONCE!! Compared to the number of times they failed, the Great Wall is a success. But it is really funny how the Chinese claim Tibet and Mongolia and Sin Kiang, because historically, they aren't Chinese, their own Great Wall is testimony to that.

For us Indians, the Himalayas have always been the historic border, therefore claiming anything is legitimate. Anyway, there are only 3 passes to enter India from Asia, two in Balochistan, one in Afghanistan. The Central Asians have come in through the Khyber Pass in Afghanistan, the Persians through the Bolan Pass in Balochistan. If someone had the brains, they could have copied the Chinese and walled these little 5 mile stretches of open space, and the map as well as demographics of India would be MUCH different.


BTW, off-topic, but many Chinese proudly boast and post Indian articles on how the "Indian nation was convulsed in fear" during 1962. The reason for that fear is different. Nobody feared Chinese soldiers coming to town tomorrow and begin raping and stuff. The cause for the panic was that for millenia, the Himalayas had provided a false sense of security to Indians, and the only three entrances to India were now under the protection of Pakistan. And because the Chinese had breached our Great Wall provided by Mother Nature, all our realities came crashing down to earth.

I can imagine the panic in China when the Mongols breached the Great Wall!!

lol ignore this greek idioot


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How is it though that the Chinese failed in their defense? How could it be that an advanced civilization such as China, with better technology, a larger population and army, manage to fall to such a backward peoples as the Mongols?


Italian troops invading Turkish Libya

Italia triumphs again!


"Everyone has the jitters, seeing objects swimming about at night, and hearing movements on ships' bottoms. It must stop!"- Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, Commander in Chief of Britain's Mediterranean Fleet

Great Wall wasnt that bad, eventhough Mongols and Northern/mongolid tribes successfully conquered parts of China, they basically tok advantage of political crises to put fill the power vaccum. Same thing happened in India with Greco-Bactrians and the Muslimslater on. A wall manned by 100-200 men (in one section) wont be enough to overwhelm a attacking mongol force of hundreads of thosands....

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17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

""lol ignore this greek idioot""

Tell me there HBN how was it being the MONBGOLS BITCHES... PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME... ohhh I see your going to go to the G & T forum and start some BS thread again cause your mad... Too bad I took your manhood and turned you into a PANZY........

Quote: How is it though that the Chinese failed in their defense? How could it be that an advanced civilization such as China, with better technology, a larger population and army, manage to fall to such a backward peoples as the Mongols?

You have a very poor understanding of history. Infact chinese supremacy, civilisation and culture is the cause of their downfall. Actually the chinese was pretty much like the roman, except they didn't go very far in conquest but was more focus on exploration (they reached Africa, I don't know what prevent them to reach america), art etc. It was a splendid kingdom, it was one the best time in their history. They've finished to fight their civil wars and their country was very stable.

The mongol on the other hand was a race of hunters, born horsemen, they lived for wars and trained from childhood just for that. Every able mongol men is a hunter-warrior. A wall is just stone, if it is not defended at one point at one time, it can be breached with labour. A breach in the wall means china and her utopia is gone forever.

If you think civilisation and technology alone is enough to keep a society from invasion you are wrong.


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Power of a god in the hand of a man.

Eryx, AzzurroItalia is being sarcastic as I am with this Chinese troll.....

Wasn't it the Turkic Hunnic raids to China that made Chinese build Great Wall ? As far as I know it was not the Mongols that made them built it...

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Turkish SATS

"From the Qin Dynasty onwards, Xiongnu, an ancient tribe that lived in North China, frequently harassed the northern border of the country. During the Han Dynasty, Emperor Wu (Han Wu Di), sent three expeditions to fight against the Xiongnu in 127 BC, 121 BC and 119 BC. The Xiongnu were driven into the far north of the Gobi. To maintain the safety of the Hexi Corridor (today's Gansu Province), the emperor ordered the extension of the Great Wall westward into the Hexi Corridor and Xinjiang region. The ruins of the beacon towers and debris of the Han Wall are still discernible in Dunhuang, Yumen and Yangguan. A recent report shows that ruins of the Han Wall have been discovered near Lopnur in China's Xinjiang region.
"

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china_great_wall/history>/


Yes dammit XiongNu was the first known tribe of the Turkic Hunnic Empire ... They were not the Mongols but the Turks ...


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Turkish SATS

Xiongnu
Nomadic confederacy, possibly of Turkish origin, that fought against the Chinese states in the 3rd century BC. Their power began in Mongolia in about 200 BC, but they were forced back to the Gobi Desert in 119 BC by China’s Han-dynasty emperor Wudi (Wu-ti (reigned 141–87 BC) and Qin Shi Huangdi built the Great Wall of China against them.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0065888.html

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Turkish SATS

LOL @ Greek troll riding on American coattails. Greeks have nothing to do with China.

Now seriously, to the non-trolls, you should ask yourself how the Huns, Mongols and Turks, all of whom fought on China's doorstep under the Great Wall ended up overrunning the Roman, Russian, Persian, Arab and Byzantine Empires thousands of miles away.

All of these were tribes of the Chinese borderlands and they weren't just wild barbarians. Most of the tribes were sinicized to an extent that they used steel weapons forged with Chinese techniques (some of which were later passed to Japan and the famous katana swords) and had seige warfare engines. Taking cities and being armed with well-made mass produced steel weapons wasn't what most barbarians were capable of. Hell, even many tribals today aren't capable or working steel.

It took the Mongols a half century to take over ung China and they were AT Chinese doorstep. But during same time they overran most of Eurasia up to the gates of Vienna, thousands of miles away.

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WHAM BAM! PANDA MA'AM!

Oh, read Edward Gibbon's monumental "The rise and fall of Roman Empire" for how happened with barbarians.

According Gibbon, the Chinese Han dynasty crushed a major Hun invasion and subsequent rebellion (Chinese empires often exerted and then lost control over barbarian states on its borders) that ultimately created a "domino" effect that sent barbarian tribes fleeing westward towards Europe. This happened repeated in history. A strong expansive power, whether Han or barbarian, that controlled North China would invariably send waves of barbarians into the Middle East, Russia and Europe.

This happened with the Turks and the Mongols and many other less well-known but also great fighting tribes from the Chinese borderlands like Avars, Kushans (Wu Sun) and Tartars.

-------------------------------------------------
WHAM BAM! PANDA MA'AM!

@Eryx
You have a very poor understanding of history. Infact chinese supremacy, civilisation and culture is the cause of their downfall. Actually the chinese was pretty much like the roman, except they didn't go very far in conquest but was more focus on exploration (they reached Africa, I don't know what prevent them to reach america), art etc. It was a splendid kingdom, it was one the best time in their history. They've finished to fight their civil wars and their country was very stable.


And they also organized a large and powerful army, and by the time of the Ghengis Khan conquest, they already began using firearms. That's quite a weapon to use. China had a bigger population, how could you not draft enough troops to combat such a threat?


Italian troops invading Turkish Libya

Italia triumphs again!


"Everyone has the jitters, seeing objects swimming about at night, and hearing movements on ships' bottoms. It must stop!"- Admiral Sir Andrew Cunningham, Commander in Chief of Britain's Mediterranean Fleet

man i think this dude is trollin, just started this thread to get at HBN

why do greeks and chinese fight so much?

Zubr Baby!

There was NO wars among Han Chinese Empire with Mongols along the Great Walls at all.


After the Powerful Chinese Tang Empire was disintegrated, the ex-Chinese huge territory was divided in three Empires:

Wertern Xia Empire (A.D. 916-1125. Sinicized nomadic tribes)
Northern Jin Empire (A.D. 1038-1227. Sinicized nomadic tribes)
Sourthern Song Empire (A.D. 960-1279. Han Chinese)

Great Walls were all located in Northern China, and at that time were all inside the Jin Empire.

After Cenghis Khan united Mongol tribes around 1200, Cenghis waged wars against Jin Empire, but not successful.

Then Cenghis went to conquer the whole way to Central/West Asia and Russia and Europe. At first Cenghis asked the West Xia Empire army to join his Mongol army, but was refused by West Xia Emperor.

After 15 years when Cenghis returned back from Europe to Mongolia, he started war against West Xia for revenge. After 2 years wars, West Xia surrendered.
One year later, Cenghis Khan died at age 72.

Then the third son of Cenghis Wogotai became the new Mongol Khan. Wogotai formed an Alliance with the Han Chinese Southern Song empire, together they attacked the Northern Jin Empire. 4 years later, in 1234, Jin Empired was defeated and its territory divided by Mongol Empire and Southern Song Empire.

Then Mongols went to conquer Europe again, this time supported by ex-Xia army and ex-Jin army.

In 1271, Mongols moved their Capital from Mongolia to Northern China (ex-Jin Empire territory), established the Central Mongol Empire Capital in current Beijing, and established the Yuan Dynasty.

After Mongols returned from Europe, with the help of Northern Chinese army from ex-Jin Empire, Mongols started wars against Southern Song Empire.

8 years later, in 1279, Southern Song Empire fell, Mongols controlled whole Chinese territory.

After 80 years rule in China, Mongols were defeated by Han Chinese and the next Chinese Ming Empire (A.D. 1368-1644) army sacked and burnt down the original Mongol Capital deep in the Northern Mongolia. From then on, Mongols disappeard from history, and was later conquered by another Sinicized Manchu nomandic tribes from North-East China, and Mongolia became part of Chinese territory for hundreds years since then.

Around 1940, under Soviet pressure, Outer-Mongolia went independence, but 90% of all Mongols live in current Chinese province Inner-Mongolia with a population of around 16 millions.

PRC (People's Republic of China) recognized the independence of Outer-Mongolia, but ROC (Republic of China, namely Taiwan), still includes the Outer-Mongolia in their official landmap, they do not recognize the independence of Outer-Mongolia.


Conclusion:
There was NO wars among Han Chinese Empire with Mongols along the Great Walls at all.


Let alone a "blunder" caused by Mongols along the Great Walls. What can you expect from a greek whose country has been enslaved by Turks for continuous 800 years.



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lol why did turks overrun greece which is a far superior civilization.....


to people who are really interested in the topic. Chinese built great walls to defend northern nomads, they were not always mongols, mongols only came to dominance in central asia after 12th century. and we've built the walls since 2th century BC, we built the walls to defend mainly Huns and Turks. All i have to say is we drove Huns away and they crashed Roman Empire, we drove Turks away and they crashed Eastern Roman Empire and it took Mongols a few years to conquer all of siberia and Europe all the way to Austria but it took Mongols 40 years to conquer Southern China where it was ruled by the weakest Chinese regime ever in history LOLOLOLOLOL

lol I said it's just a greek troll jackass knowing nothing about Great Wall.

the greeek you can better study how much the blunder has been for your Greece which was ruled no-stop by Turks for half a century


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""Let alone a "blunder" caused by Mongols along the Great Walls. What can you expect from a greek whose country has been enslaved by Turks for continuous 800 years.""

""the greeek you can better study how much the blunder has been for your Greece which was ruled no-stop by Turks for half a century""

Comfort boy which is it 800 or a half century. How cares right... Cause we all know the Euros own the Chinese right, remember the British and the Portuguese who knocked the snot of you with a handfull of soldiers..........


To the uneducated HBN. Unlike us Greeks who were taken over by the Turks with the help of GAHZIS "JIHADI HOLY WARRIORS FROM THE NEAR EAST" who overwhelmed us in 1453. So HBN we Greeks held out to a much larger and well armed force for awhile, while you Chinese couldn't even fight off a handful of EURO's So who's the FOOL comfort boy.......hahhaahahahaa


P.S. HBN I'll be waiting for your and from midget panda too.

lol

It's just a greek lol


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Hmmm, here in the UK at university all the Chinese students work for the university as cleaners
and servers. What the heck is up with that.
Maybe i make a reall mess all over the place HBN, just for you, so you can know
your compatriots will have to clean up some Greek's mess

Enjoy!

Greeek mes, lol

Greek mess in 800 years Turkish rule





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Soldiers of Buddha Empire. United Under Buddha.
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just a greeek


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Soldiers of Buddha Empire. United Under Buddha.
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Yep HBN, my own little greek mess.
And it was a glorious one!!!
It covered a great part of the floors too....

But, never fear...the chinaman is always here to serve!!
He (or should i say she...there are mostly chinese girls here,dont know why)
did her duty, and cleaned up

You see HBN, in the grander scheme of things, The average greek spends his day deciding things such as what shirt to put on so that it matches his shoes, whereas the average chinese spends his day thinking how ****ty his only pair of sandals looks.

Even here in the UK, those chinese lucky enough to be in europe, when not studying, spend their day thinking how much detergent that stain on the floor will need to clean...

(oops, did i make that stain? i am SOOO sorry!)


Enjoy!

Hey, maybe tomorrow i be good, and not have an "accident" and drop my coffee out in the hallway,maybe i even send some poor chinaman a new pair of sandals!

HAHAHA

a greeek talking about serving?

I like the Greek girls Greek-Stype you know what I mean

doggie doggie greeky stype hahaha




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Soldiers of Buddha Empire. United Under Buddha.
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It's amazing to hear a 800 years Turkish slave greeks talking big about how rich he is now, but hell here in Amsterdam there are so many greek women selling sex to our Chinese men for 50 euro's for ALL service hahahaha

Have a nice day our groups may visit your greek women this weekends again

It's hilarish to see a 800 years slave talking about "rich" now HAHAHA






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Soldiers of Buddha Empire. United Under Buddha.
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"""It's amazing to hear a 800 years Turkish slave greeks talking big about how rich he is now, but hell here in Amsterdam there are so many greek women selling sex to our Chinese men for 50 euro's for ALL service hahahaha

Have a nice day our groups may visit your greek women this weekends again

It's hilarish to see a 800 years slave talking about "rich" now HAHAHA""


Poor lil wang no Greek girl sells here @$$ in Amsterdam. But I'll tell you here in L.A. for 30$ you get a nice fresh Chinese girl from the mainland. You see here in L.A. we have many MASSAGE parlors runned by Chinese under world. And if you know anything about 3rd world people as yourself, you would know prostitutes come from poor countries as yours, so if you ever come to L.A. I will get you your first Chinese hooker on me.... you se I'm a nice guy.

P.S. One day China might become rich and the ladies of China wont have to go looking for work in those dirty places as they do now.....Cheers HBN keep BSing as you do I love your stories.....hahahahahahaha

BTW comfort boy my room needs cleaning too.... Come iron my clothes too boy......

No greek women selling sex in Amsterdam???

When was the time when your Greek girl did the 3P with the Chinese?

Huh?


HAHAHA

You Turkish 800 years slave, come on to Amsterdam, you can talk Greek with your Greek women there HAHAHA


lol






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But I am serious.

In Amsterdam there are MANY Greek women selling sex, and they are HOT they are even ready to do 3P you know? My mates go there so often, every week lol

Greeks are VERY poor in Europe, that's why a lot of Greek women are here selling, you know?

But hell, why should a Thread turn into Flame? Right?

No need greek men, you should be in G/T to liberate you from your 800 years Turkish Enslaving

Forget it.

Some Mod lock this obvious Flame Thread started by a pissed off greek lol




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Greek girls don't find pleasure in lil things as your phallus
------------>


they like ones that extend further than there pinky as this one.


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Major differnce as you can see with the poll results....

Whatever

NO FLAME
NO FLAME
NO FLAME
NO FLAME
NO FLAME
NO FLAME





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Soldiers of Buddha Empire. United Under Buddha.
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Yah you know troll you can't compare Chinese phallus to a Greek it's just not fair I say......


----------------> Chinese

---------------------------------------------------------------> Greek




It's just not fair I say... But maybe you Chinese will be the First people to do transplants of the phallus. What you Chinese can do is hit the U.S. & Europe up and tell them when a Black or White or Hispanic or Indian dies that you can buy the dead mans phallus for transplant back home in China. I think that will be the Chinese next big trend, lots of maney can be made by doing this.....LoL

and help HBN sex life.....

ok ok you win ok?

yours:
-----------------------------------------------------?

mine:
------------------------------->

PEACE OUT





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HBN if I was you I would just give up on this fruitless venture your in by yourself. You've been trying to crack me for a long time and you can't. Why not just call it quits cause I wont tell your crushed. So it's up to you man not me. But if you keep it up I just keep turning up the heat on you.......

OK brother.

As I told you before that I believe you are a good guy in life, so can you believe HBN is a decent guy in life too.

And, you as Greek-American, you can critize China or Chinese, I hope you can critize in a decent way.

I don't think we are unreasonable guys, let's make a deal.

Also, I have 2 very good Greek friends, when I see them and remember the "flames" against you, I can't help laughing lol

But sorry if in future it turns ugly in WAFF, I may "attack" you again, but keep in mind, HBN is not evil, and I believe you are not either.

Peace out brother.






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Soldiers of Buddha Empire. United Under Buddha.
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Isn't this supposed to be a forum for intellectual discussions??

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17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

"Unlike us Greeks who were taken over by the Turks with the help of GAHZIS "JIHADI HOLY WARRIORS FROM THE NEAR EAST" who overwhelmed us in 1453"

Lol I think u mean ghazis lololl Indeed Ghazis were the Turks too lol Ghazi term is still being used today in Turkey Ghazis were Turkish soldiers who were very very fanatic and very religious elite warriors of that time who were running on the front lines of the Turkish army. However today ghazi term is used as a soldier who had been wounded in a battle . U c ? Turk and Ghazi is not seperate terms . Ghazi division was just a section of the Ottoman Turkish army

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***Timur the Great***

The Great Wall was a blunder, it never really achieved its stated purpose.

That doesn't diminish its cultural or historical importance however.

The American Marine Division has the highest combat effectiveness in the American armed forces. It seems not enough for our four divisions to surround and annihilate its two regiments.

---Mao Tse Sung to General Song, prior to Chosin Reservoir

And Great Wall didn't stop Chinese expanding their territory far beyond Gread Wall.


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The Great Wall was a defensive fortress when the Chinese empire was weak and a base for attack when the empire was strong. Under most major Chinese dynasties, the Great Wall was, like it is is today, hundreds of miles inside the borders.

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WHAM BAM! PANDA MA'AM!

it's a myth that great wall has been there for 2000 years, the major construction only occured during 2 century BC and 15th century , for most of the time Great Wall wasn't acting like defence barrier, for either of the two reasons, 1st as HBN said Chinese boundary reached far beyound the great wall,(tang dynasty for example) and 2nd chinese control could merely reach great wall (song dynasty for example). Some people have been saying Marco Polo is lying because there are no records of great wall in his book, well the truth is when marco polo arrived in china (13th century) there was no great wall or at least it wasn't "great".

Some really intelligent posts in this string. Yup. Uh huh.

E Tan, E Epi Tas!

HBN

Where were you when I referred to you, regarding the years of turkish occupation in Greece in the G/T forum? You missed the post?

Do you lack knowledge of history? Where the **** do you get the 800 years number from? Constantinople fell in 1453. Our National Revolution began in 1821. That was 368 years. We achieved liberation in 1828, so in the worst case, it was 375 years. If you cannot understand that, then not only you lack knowledge of history but knowledge of mathematics as well.

And compared to the 7,000 years of Hellenic existence, those 368 were just an unpleasant break.

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"Granting thee the command of the City represents neither my own wish, nor the one of those that dwell in it. A common decision all of us have made, that of a death wish, for the sake of protecting it and therefore we shall not heed our lives"

Constantine Palaiologus
Queen of Cities, 29 May 1453

@KAMIKAZE:

Sorry mate, 800 is bullshiit, it's less than 400 years.

And it will never happen again, let's move on.




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Ok then, peace

Sorry for the aggression, but distortion of history really annoys me

Happy Easter everyone

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"Granting thee the command of the City represents neither my own wish, nor the one of those that dwell in it. A common decision all of us have made, that of a death wish, for the sake of protecting it and therefore we shall not heed our lives"

Constantine Palaiologus
Queen of Cities, 29 May 1453

Hey, China invented the lesbianism (for the pleasure of the man)

Greece invented the male homosexualism, for their back orifice pleasure...

I´m sure China is a far more advanced civilization :P

Ok, let me stop flamming...

I think China history is incomparable, there is no way to compare the magnificient chinese culture and the greek one...

(I´m a daoist myself)

why the great wall did stop the invasion.
Mongols, i donnu, corrupted governemnt. but,
at end of Ming dynasty(around 1600), general Yuan Zhong Huan held the Manchu invasion at the great walls for mroe than a year. Then some political complication, the emperor dont trust him nemore so he was executed. still the Manchus could not get it, only did then a chinese nobleman named Wu San Gui opened up the gate for the Manchus did the Manchus came in. By that time the Manchurian emperor Huang Tai Ji has alraedy died, and his wife led the Manchus into Beijing. Ming soldiers held the Manchus at the great wall for almost a generation.
tell me if i baffled you, chinese history around that time period was very chaotic.

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