All this discussion of Castes. I have a question. If an Indian is born to a lower caste, but gets a good education and a good job, can he trade up his caste? This is a serious question, mind you!

You might think that this is funny but its no joke. the misery and plight of hundreds and millions of lower caste hindus is caused by this horrible so called religion. take this from the hindu holy book, its worse for a high caste hindu to have sex with a lower caste 'untouchable' than it is with a cow!!!! and then they say that the cow is a deity and call it their 'holy mother'


"An adulterer shall be made to pay the highest amercement if he has had connection with a woman of his own caste; for adultery with women of a lower caste, the second amercement; the same (fine is ordained) for a bestial crime committed with a cow. He who has had connection with a woman of one of the lowest castes, shall be put to death. For a bestial crime committed withcattle (other than cows) he shall be fined a hundred Karshapanas." -- Visnusmrti 5:40-44.

For instance from what caste level are the Indian forumers here?

Cause if there from a lower level i won't reply to them again...(jk)

---



Türk milleti, Türk milleti,
Aşk ile sev milliyeti,
Kahret vatan düşmanını,
Çeksin o mel’un zilleti.

İsmail Hakkı Bey

Your caste and ethnicity is denoted by your last name. Of course you can get rich even if you are a low-caste. Caste and class are not inter-related any more. Actually, they never were. Brahmins (highest caste) are supposed to be dirt poor and living on charity. Kshatriyas are supposed to live off only the government salary which is derived from taxes and plunder of war. Vaishyas are the rich ones, they are the merchants and businessmen. And Shudras are the ones doing menial labor.

This system is not practical nowadays. Everyone follows a Vaishya lifestyle nowadays. Caste is only surviving through last names. So, if you wanna change your caste, you gotta change your last name.

In India, there is a severely oppressive system placed on the upper castes in the name of economic upliftment of the lower castes (if they did this by class basis, I'd understand, but caste and economic level aren't related). 30% of government jobs, university seats, are specifically reserved for people with last names that denote a lower-caste.

I have seen plenty of lower-caste kids from upper middle class families get a joyride through life, thanks to their last name. Nowadays, you don't want to be from upper-caste, if you want to succeed in life, you want to be a lower-caste. I have known PLENTY of kids of Brahmin caste who have changed their last names to get admission to universities, of course, when they are caught, they are in deep $hit.



For me, caste does not exist. My father was a Kshatriya, my mother a Brahmin. Inter-caste marriage isn't even recognized by orthodox Hindus, so I dunno what I am, I am "genetically" both, last name wise a Kshatriya, but actually, I am neither.

And please disregard these Pakis talking crap about what they don't know.


WUTT!! 305 TiLL i dIE!!

TOMA!!
http://www.blinblineomedia.com/sandunguero.asx

Ima a jatt so i think that's pretty damn middle. But i'm all good.

Jatts actually dont belong in the Indian "caste", Jatt is a tribe, with Gill, Choudhry, Dhillon being different clans. Come on now you should know better. Thats why we say "tusi kerri Bradery de o" instead of "jat"

Harry, I want you to read the thread I posted about Hindu revival in Islamic Bengal. It will change your view of Hinduism.

bro cant we just discuss on it, its too hard to read so much, i will read it later and reply but right now its mid-night and i am soo tired, just came back from working-out. Anyway its much easier to debate on it, so others can put their input on it. Well goodnight for tonight.

okay then, gudnite

Interesting...

When did the Caste System form in India?

ok, so seriously though, since cast system is of no significnce, which hindu on this forum is actually from a lower cast?




"...He is a formidable person and I am glad that he is Pakistani not Egyptian..."
- Eizer Weizman, Chief Of Israeli Air Force during the six day war, commenting on Air Marshal Noor Khan (Commander PAF at that time)

Quote: Jatts actually dont belong in the Indian "caste", Jatt is a tribe, with Gill, Choudhry, Dhillon being different clans

There are clans among Rajputs and Marathas...what the heck! There are even clans amongst Brahmans and Shudras...so by your logic all Indians belong to tribes and the caste-system never existed.

I think elitecavalier (haven't seen him in a while) told me that he is a Dalit. And cooldude_rk (ravi, remember him, the first hindu nationalist indian on WAFF) said his grandfather used to be a Dalit Panther Chief, which is a militant Dalit organization, kinda like the Black Pride movements in America, but more serious. So, ravi was also a Dalit.

Maybe I'm a Dalit too, dunno, inter-caste marriage isn't recognized by orthodox Hindus. But then again, my parents were married by the Arya Samaj sect, which doesn't recognize caste at all. And since there is no official database thats managing who is Brahmin, who is Dalit, who is 100% Kshatriya and who is not, I guess it makes little difference to me.

Actually, ultimately the caste hierarchy is only in people's minds.

but to answer the question:

NO, the cant change their cast. They are born into it.




"...He is a formidable person and I am glad that he is Pakistani not Egyptian..."
- Eizer Weizman, Chief Of Israeli Air Force during the six day war, commenting on Air Marshal Noor Khan (Commander PAF at that time)

But people change their caste anyway. To get ahead in life, many Brahmins are changing their last names. This girl I know, Brahmin family of Marathi ethnicity (same as Sachin, I dun think he's a Brahmin though), her uncle's in deep $hit now with the government cause he changed his last name to a Dalit last name to take advantage of the quotas and reservations and priviledges they give to the lower-castes.

So yeah, just go to a government office, maybe you have a friend working there. Hook him up with some money, get a name change done, notarized with government stamp, and there you go, change of caste.

a Sodhi, Arrora, clearly state they are Katri

while Punjabi castes such as Ramghria, Jatt, Lobana, never state which group they belong, because they belong to none of the Indian castes.

How on earth these Indians believe in grandiose plans of "ruling" the world with their companies when they still have this system of castes ? or cows walking free in their capital ?

All the Hindus i have met they have this big superior belief about "mother" India, the mother of everybody and everything, religion, language etc etc, the oldest this, the greatest that, the strongest army after US, the third strongest economy in 10-20 years etc etc bla bla

when they still needed government intervention to get the cows out of the capital since they are sacred animals !!!

What should i do if i travel to India and see a cow by the way? Should i stop and ask for her blessing or wait till she goes while admire that such a devine moment occured to me ? should i perform any rituals like cursing McDonalds, should i imititate their MMMMM trying to get an answer that might give me an insight into the knowledge of this pointless world and get some meaning to my life ??...??

I am just curious since i see that even high educated Hindu professionals, vegeterians, still admire the COW even today ...

 

 

The Golden Calf
"When the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain [i.e. Mount Sinai], the people gathered themselves together to Aaron, and said to him, "Up, make us gods, who shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him."
"And Aaron said to them, "Take off the rings of gold which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me." So all the people took off the rings of gold which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. And he received the gold at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made a molten calf; and they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!"




"When Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation and said, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to The Lord." And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."

"And The Lord [see Rock Of Ages] said to Moses, "Go down; for your people, whom you brought up out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves; they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt!'" (Exodus 32:1-8 RSV)

The Bull Calf

The pagan religions of ancient Egypt, as well as throughout Mesopotamia, often included the worship of living bulls, or calves, and images of them. The one that Aaron made may have been based on Apis, the bull idol of the Egyptians. The only thing more seemingly incredible than Aaron's making of it, after all that they had just seen The Lord do for them, was his referring to that lifeless chunk of metal as "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt."

Israelite calf worship did not end there. After the division of the tribes of Israel into two kingdoms, Israel and Judah (see Jews At War With Israel), King Jeroboam of Israel (see Kings of Israel and Judah) set up two calf idols, one at Dan, and the other at Bethel, in an attempt to keep the people of the northern kingdom of Israel from going to Jerusalem, in the southern kingdom of Judah, to worship. Very strangely, Jeroboam referred to his calf idols in the same words that Aaron used centuries before, as "your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt":


"And Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will turn back to the house of David; if this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of The Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."
"So the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, "You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt." And he set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. And this thing became a sin, for the people went to the one at Bethel and to the other as far as Dan." (1 Kings 12:26-30 RSV)

The calf idols of Israel lasted as long as the northern kingdom did. As the Assyrians (see Ancient Empires - Assyria) gradually conquered the ten tribes, the idols were looted for their gold. The calf at Dan was carried away in the reign of Pekah by Tiglath-pileser, and the one at Bethel about ten years later, in the reign of Hoshea, by Shalmaneser (2 Kings 15:29, 17:3-6).

Fact Finder: What is the Second Commandment?

Yes when a brahmin moves to Europe he will clean toilets instead of opressing lower casts indians lol


Perhaps that will make them realise how sick and immoral the cast system is.

This is just senseless flame, officially the caste system is outlawed in India and if anyone discriminates another person on bases of caste then they can go to jail. Plus in the government sector, universities and colleges 30-50% of the seats are reserved to people who are from lower castes. This is our way of telling Indians from low castes sorry. I might also add the note that Indians are not the only ones who clean toilets other south asians and asians do it as well so do nt label us as being people with no skill and honor. Ur probably upset cuz we are taking all ur IT jobs and theres nothing you can do about it.



Albert Einstein:
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

Mark Twain:
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."

Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA
"India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

I have nothing against indians at all I just wanted to point out how sick the cast system is whether it is practised openly in India or covertly in Europe.

And by the way the outsourcing of internet jobs is good cause it pressures the prices, so costumers can spend there money on other stuff.

Could the different castes be distinguished visually in India.

Based on my Malaysian Indian friends, who went to India and visited some of their temples , they were harassed by some temple priests(or officials??) and request them to declare their caste and I.D. to check their names, and they were asked to leave. I dunno which temple it was, they went to Northern India, and they were queried whether their credit cards and identification are authentic, they suspect caste discrimination at work. The indians(airports,hotels) always laugh at her and her family members for speaking Tamil and a bit of Hindi in Malaysian Indian slang, but she says that maybe becoz she's in Northern India where everybody is a bit fair and Malaysian Indians like her, who are typcally black are looked down upon despite my friend's father being a Doctor, my friend sez she did not like India and does not intend to live there as as her parents hope, she sez she'll retire in New Zealand and do cattle ranching(????????). Oh yeah, she hates Indian cities, too many cows and dung.Sorry, i am no Indian basher, this is also second hand account which gave bad account of india.Ohh.my friends name is Ashwinna(forgot her family name), she's doing SAM and will hopefully go to OZ to do medicine( or vet if she's into cattle ranching???).Does her name first shows she's a lower caste or something.

Oh yeah one thing, my mom's friend , a male Sikh who does not wear a Turban, travels to India and declares himself a Hindu, he sez that if other Sikh finds him a Sikh without a turban, he'll return to Malaysia in a coffin , or in an urn.How true is this. Just curious, i dun want to digress.

What proof do we have that everything u have said isn t bull****. Want me to post up the revised constitution of India that says discrimination based on caste is illegal surely if that temple did nt accept people from lower caste it would get into sh-it because as per Indian laws it is illegal to do what you have just stated.

As far as Sikhs cutting their hair goes there are millions of Sikhs that have cut there hair in India and none of them are dead. Watch any Punjabi video majority of the guys are cut sikhs. Even Indian actors Sunny Deol and Bobby Deol are Sikhs they have cut their hair and they r still alive no one has even threatened them.

Maybe you should listen to proud Indians as well before formulating an opinion of a certain country.




Albert Einstein:
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

Mark Twain:
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."

Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA
"India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

I assure you its not bull****, dun get me wrong. Sorry if i offend u, im not trying to flame, anyway, never went to India myself, so who am i to judge. But my friend there was really goddamn exasperated with her experience in India. Maybe only an isolated incident.Cheerz.

In a Sikh family, only the first son MUST follow the dress code and the five Ks and all that stuff, it is optional for the rest of the sons, maybe Harry can correct me on this.

O, and ethnic rivalry is common in India, and to be expected. Its a miracle that the country stays together. The dominant ethnicity in India, and all South Asia, is Hindustani (Hindi and Urdu speakers), and they are also the entreprenaur type, so you'll find them all across India. I've been in a couple of fights myself. My Hindustani "friends" wrote graffiti on the wall that "Sab Bangali log chor hai" and "Sab Bangali log harami hai" in response to a controversial decision we made while playing cricket on the terrace.

My building had 12 flats, 6 Bengali and 6 khotta (Bengali derogatory word for Hindustanis) families. To our east, the building had 11 khotta families and 1 Bengali family. To our west, the building had 11 Bengali families and 1 khotta family. So, my building was the battleground kinda for being even. Anyway, one day, I was playing cricket on the khotta building's terrace, like me alone with 7 other khottas. I was bowling, I said the guy was out, he says he isn't, all of a sudden, even my team members (all khottas too) turn on me, insults start flying, they start joking around about Bengalis. I lash out, I got hit with a cricket bat on my head, but I've always been big and taller for my age. I slapped the batsman across his chest, left my five fingers on him. The others started ganging up on me, so I punched my way out, ran out of the terrace, down the stairs for like 6 floors. All the elders are just looking. They see that someone they've known for years is going to get his ass whooped, but they don't budge, after all, they are khottas too. That hurt me, cuz that really puts an ethnic angle to the whole thing. An adult thing to do would be come in and break it up.
My friend's older sister just keeps asking me sympathetically "kya hua". Anyway, I got outta there, to safe territory, my house, lol.

Funny thing is, next day nobody played cricket. Day after everyone was like "I wanna play again", and we again get together, say what we said earlier we didn't really mean it, and get on with our lives. And then in a few months, $hit starts again, and same story.


Anyway, ethnic discrimination is a 2-way street. It isn't just north Indians making fun of Tamils in north India. Tamils make fun of north Indians in Tamil Nadu.

"And by the way the outsourcing of internet jobs is good cause it pressures the prices, so costumers can spend there money on other stuff"

idiotic comment, all consumers are also producers, and as such compete with foreign labor.

.

Speaking of caste, look, they have caste in West Africa too.

http://www.mamadoukora.com/

Malian kora musician, Mamadou Diabate is a member of the Mandinka West African jeli (musician caste) family. His musical lineage goes back seven centuries to the time of Sunjata Keita, the conqueror of the Malian empire.
Now based in the United States, Mamadou performs around North America and Europe. Interested in bringing the kora to new audiences, he has played with jazz and other contemporary artists, however he remains rooted in the traditions of the Manding kora and his griot heritage. He is one of a handful remaining kora players that are keeping alive the kora tradition.

Here's a sample:
http://www.mamadoukora.com/cgi-bin/md_samples.pl?Jamanadiera


WUTT!! 305 TiLL i dIE!!

TOMA!!
http://www.blinblineomedia.com/sandunguero.asx

"In a Sikh family, only the first son MUST follow the dress code and the five Ks and all that stuff, it is optional for the rest of the sons, maybe Harry can correct me on this."

highly incorrect. All members of the family must follow this, girls included.

And the deol family is not Sikh, they are hindus who are lawfully Muslims.


And Sikhs who cut there hair do not declare themselves hindus, or have their life threatened. But they are not allowed to participate in any religious decisions.

Bharat, thanks for the explanation. I was really curious and wanted to know. This was NOT intended to be a flame of any sort.

both u and harry, u both shudve locked the hinduism exposed threads, now look, theres a thread on koran. i asked when those threads had just been posted.

There seems to be quite some confusion here with Caste system, so here's my bit:

Answer to original queston:

No, one cant change his or her caste. In ancient times, Caste determines where you work, and you can be born into only ONE of these four castes; Brahmin (priestly), Kshatriya (Royalty & Warrior), Vaishya (businessmen, merchants, tradespeople), or Shudra (artisans, workers, farmers and in some cases, unpaid slave labour). In modern India, caste has no real value, sometimes its better to be lower caste than it is to be a higher caste. It is also illegal for officials and employers to ask for caste information. Even if you want to be a Hindu priest, they wont ask you for a brahmin caste ID for entering the Priest's school; I know this, from a remote area first hand. I asked a temple priest in the town of Chandrapur (my dad's birthplace) if I could be a priest even if I am a Vaishya; he laughed and said that he was Shudra himself...

Unfortunately, people have accepted the Achoot or untouchale (aka Harijans, Dalits) as another caste, but it shouldn't be that way.

And contradicting thought of most people, intercaste marraige was allowed, as long as the people being married and their parents agreed.

And the Dalit caste is people who have been disgraced and were removed from society (eg. criminals, traitors and so on), and being born into a Dalit's family doesn't make you Dalit.

The only people exempted from caste in India are the tribals. They have no caste and we just call them Adivasi (tribal).

-----------------------------------
17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

@ forrestcat

* You said that some people were harassed and officials demanded caste ID?

Its actually illegal for officials and even priests to do that, dont know maybe an isolated incident...

* And you say one of your friends was laughed at by people in Delhi?

I dont think she was laughed at for being Tamil or dark skinned, but ask her if she was wearing Indian clothes, and was she wearing them CORRECTLY? and if she was speaking Hindi/Tamil Correctly? Cause these two are very common reasons for NRIs (Non Resident Indians) become amusement for Indians (speaking with personal experience).

-----------------------------------
17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsAug2002/cover1aug.htm

On June 22, at 3:00 pm, Abdul Khaliq's younger brother, Pannu, heard Salma, his 18-year-old sister, talking to a male while she was working in the fields adjoining their house. When Pannu enquired about his identity, Salma informed him that Abdul Shakoor, Ghulam Farid's 14-year-old son, was harassing her. Soon thereafter, an enraged Pannu, accompanied by his cousins, Jameel and Manzoor Ahmed, allegedly abducted Shakoor and the men sodomised him in turn in the nearby fields, in the process also cutting him with knives.

Fearing retribution, the assailants took Shakoor to Abdul Khaliq, who locked him inside a room in his house, along with his sister, Salma. He then informed his tribesmen that he had caught Abdul Shakoor sexually assaulting Salma and had locked him in his house. As a result, a crowd of 70 odd Mastois gathered outside Abdul Khaliq's house, some of them heavily armed, and demanded vengeance.

After the police party's departure, the Mastois, represented by Mohammad Ramzan Pechar, informed Ghulam Farid that if he did not come to the panchayat, his house would be attacked. Accompanied by Maulvi Abdul Razzaq and Manzoor Hussain, Ghulam Farid thus went to the Mastoi panchayat, and after much debate and argument it was proposed that Abdul Shakoor should be married to Salma and Mukhtar Bibi to Pannu. The proposal infuriated Abdul Khaliq, since he viewed the Gujjars as belonging to an inferior caste. He rejected it outright, going one further and demanding that Mukhtar be presented before the panchayat, and threatening to attack Ghulam Farid's house and rape all the Gujjar women if his demand was not met.

Fearing for the safety of his family and on account of the assurances provided by the panchayat that Mukhtar would not be harmed, Ghulam Farid and his brother-in-law, Sabir Hussain, brought Mukhtar Bibi to the panchayat. There the Farids' ordeal was compounded manifold. Four men from the assembly - Abdul Khaliq, Allah Ditta, Fayyaz Hussain and Ghulam Farid - forced Mukhtar into a room and gang-raped her as the remaining tribesmen restrained Ghulam Farid and Sabir Hussain, who could do nothing but plead to the heavens for mercy.

After the rape, Mukhtar Bibi was sent out of the room in a semi-nude state, a symbolic gesture signifying that the Mastois had exacted reprisal and hence, had upheld their honour. Following the rape the Mastois allowed the Gujjars to leave, but their ordeal was far from over since Shakoor was still in police custody.

Ghulam Farid had to sell one of his cows at a throwaway price to rustle up the 10,000 rupee bribe demanded by the police for Shakoor's release. By this time, the incident had come to the notice of the SHO and the entire staff of the Jatoi Police Station, but still no action was taken.


Three things emerge from this report:
1. Caste is alive and well in rural Pakistan where the rule of law is completely absent.
2. Teenaged boys are in danger of being sodomized by groups of older men in rural Pakistan.
3. Last in a quote from this report, "women in Pakistani society are considered lesser beings, at par with family property, and repositories of the family honour."

of course caste is alive in Pakistan. You see those Choudhrys, how they treat rest of the people

Zorawar:

"Three things emerge from this report:
1. Caste is alive and well in rural Pakistan where the rule of law is completely absent.
2. Teenaged boys are in danger of being sodomized by groups of older men in rural Pakistan.
3. Last in a quote from this report, "women in Pakistani society are considered lesser beings, at par with family property, and repositories of the family honour.""


Now why can't some Bharatis digest their food without bashing Pakistan?

Why was Pakistan brought into this discussion?

There are many people in RURAL Pakistan who have are still effected by some bad Hindu practices. Talking of caste is one of them.
Teenaged boys/girls/women are always in danger of sexual exploitation EVERYWHERE.
Some people in RURAL Pakistan consider women to be lesser in status.

Quote: Why was Pakistan brought into this discussion?

Well I live in the city and quite frankly can't tell people's caste by looking at them. I don't know too much about caste/tribe/community differences—hence I turned to google and searched for info on this.

And lo! What do I find? Pages and pages about caste discrimination in Pakistan...naturally I had to share this with people on this forum who mistakenly believe that caste only exists in India.

And the last bit on women in PAKISTAN (not just RURAL Pakistan) was a quote from the Pakistani newspaper report...not my opinion.

"naturally I had to share this with people on this forum"

It's not natural. It's hatred of Pakistan, as is taught among common Hindus by their government.
Admit it. Hindians can not digest their food without bull****ting against Pakistan and Muslims first. lol.


" who mistakenly believe that caste only exists in India."
Mind you. It's not about India. It's about HINDUS. Caste system exists in Hindus. The world knows it. While some illiterate, uncivilized people in rural Pakistan also show such a behavior, due to hundreds of years of bad influence from Hindus.

Can you see the difference? No you can't. Because when it comes to Pakistan, Bharati Hindians forget all logic and reason. AND IT SHOWS HERE. lol lol

And Pakistanis can ??? Look at urself first then tell others.



Albert Einstein:
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

Mark Twain:
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."

Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA
"India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

Quote: While some illiterate, uncivilized people in rural Pakistan also show such a behavior, due to hundreds of years of bad influence from Hindus.

Are you sure Zulfiqar?

Better check with your compatriots on this forum because according to them Pakistan has NEVER been part of Hindu civilization.

Secondly they claim that they have absolutley no Hindu ancestry because the "people of Pakistan are descended from Greeks, Sakas, Persians, Turks, Arabs, Afghans etc."

So where did this powerful "hundreds of years of" Hindu influence come from?

^ This influence came due to living together with Hindus.

The educated middle class does NOT discriminate on the basis of caste or ethnicity. I'm from Kerala, the southernmost state, and lived in Uttar Pradesh (now Uttaranchal), a northern state bordering China, all my life before moving to the U.S., and yet I never experienced discrimination. And caste is so insignificant that I don't even know which one I belong to nor do I care. My family and relatives use patronymic system (father's given name is family's surname) so there's no real way to tell who belongs to which caste.

Quote: This influence came due to living together with Hindus.

LMAO! Honor killings, karo-kari, revenge rapes, barter of women etc. etc. have been practically sanctioned by your wonderful Islamic courts.

@Zorawar, I just remembered a very important verdict passed in Muslim-ass-kissing Republic of India the other day.

lol. Muslim-ass-kicking-republic? Now where does secularism of these Hindus go?
Let's see what our secular Bharati Muslim would have to say about this. Is he going to get his ass kicked? lol.

Maaan, this guy is real PISSED OFF here. lol lol.

I think someone deleted my reply here too.



Albert Einstein:
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

Mark Twain:
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."

Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA
"India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

Well, it doesn't affect Hindus in short-term I guess. This Indian Muslim girl got raped by her father-in-law the other day. The Shariat court has ordered that she cannot live with her husband, and must marry her rapist. DISGUSTING!! The powerful All India Muslim Personal League Board approved it, even the women's wing.

After Rajeev Gandhi in 1980s, the Deoband got powers to reverse decisions taken by the Supreme Court. That is what I call Muslim-ass-kissing. This is simply nothing but appeasement of the orthodox elements of Muslim community.

While you have normal Muslims on internet and in personal interaction, these kinds of things continue in reality. For now, it is only bad for Muslims, but it is politically strengthening Islam in the country. Things look bad for Hindus. The Partition of India was supposed to make a safe haven for Muslims in one part, and a safe haven for Hindus in another. What ended up happening, is that Muslims got their fixed deposit in Pakistan, and made a joint account with Hindus in India. Hindus lose out, due to our own innocence.

You know there is a caste system in Iran aswell, even to date.

1. Seyed (they are supposedly decendents of Mohammad, in particular Hussein)
2. Basiji and other factions like them (free education among other things)
3. Janbazan(the soldiers that are invalid due war) - They used to get free education etc. but that has been drastically decreased in the recent years so I am not sure if they should be here, otherwise move them down one step to number 4.
4. Regular Persians, Lurs and others whose native language is persian excluding afghanistanis
5. Turks, in particular azeris as they are shiite
6. Other shiites including a group of kurds
7. kurds, the sunni muslim ones
8. Arabs of Khuzistan and persian gulf coasts from bushehr to Bandar Abbas
9. Baluch
10. Afghanistani, does not matter if you are shiite like the hazara, or native persians/iranians like the tajiks or a pashtun. Extremely discriminated people

Europe Cast(e)s a Shadow

A study has found that members of the higher castes in India are genetically close to Europeans while lower-caste Indians are more similar to Asians. Researchers from the University of Utah found that while maternally-inherited DNA of high-caste Indians was similar to that of Asians, paternally-inherited DNA was much closer to that of East Europeans. The higher the caste, the stronger the European genetic link. This study supports the view that European invaders of some 5,000 years ago took Indian wives, and created the caste system with themselves at the top. The genetic differences have survived because the caste system—which works as an elaborate, religiously-based anti-miscegenation scheme—forbids intermarriage between castes. [Ananova.com, Indian Caste Shows Link to Europeans, May 14, 2001, reporting on Michael Bamshad, Toomas Kivisild, et. al., Genetic Evidence on the Origin of Indian Caste Populations, Genome Research Journal, May 8, 2001.]

The caste system is sick !

@Magnus

it was not europeans who invaded india and created the caste systems
but ARYANS (iranians). thats why the higher castes of india look
EXACTLY like iranians. they dont slightly resemble, they look 100 %
the same. while lower castes are of dravidian stock and are darker and
shorter. middle castes are a mixture.

iranians are genetically related to europeans, especially to latinids
(italians and greeks) and thats why the higher indian castes are similar
to europeans.


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Iranians and europeans have indeed many links. Whos the egg and whos the chicken is hard to tell lol


I wonder for the shia arabs in iraq what is most important shiism or arabism?

honestly...

i dont give a wet **** about iraqis or other arabs


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poor indians only 10 % of them are brahmin (ARYAN)...

while in iran almost everyone is a brahmin (ARYAN)


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^
^
^
that was just a joke
i dont really believe in the
qualitative superiority of any race over other races

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That has to be the biggest BS I have ever heard in my life. Can you prove that Aryans were from Iran? Lol again coming back to Persian superiority. Atleast we have our culture intact you guys have been over runned by the Arabs lol.



Albert Einstein:
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

Mark Twain:
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."

Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA
"India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

@ Vijak and Magnus

You guys are completely wrong about ARYAN invasions into India. I've posted several proof threads about anti AIT. Arya means noble, not a race of people and Dravidia is a stretch of land that includes present day Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, and Kerela. Once again no mention of Dravidian RACE.

If you read some of our orthodox holy books, you'll see that all four varnas including Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, and Shudras are ARYA (according to AIT, Aryans were the higher classes and the lower class was not Aryan).

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17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

Okay Vijak, there is a community on Orkut called Brahmins. All the Brahmins are part of that. I'll show you a picture of each member, you tell me how "Iranian" they look to you. BTW, dont tell me they are faking their Brahmin-ness, every Hindu is proud of his caste, be Brahmin or Dalit.


She's Bengali

Telugu

Tamil

Kannada

Kannada

Kannada

Hindustani

Bangali

well at least three of these brahmins do actually look exactly like iranians...
their pigmentation might have become darker due to millenia of exposure to tropical sun.
the first two and the tamil guy admittedly dont... they might have mixed with old indian populace in the course of thousands of years (despite all efforts of preventing inter-race marriages)
if not for the aryan invasion theory how do you explain the over-obvious similarities between the aryan indian culture (note - not the tamil/dravidian culture) and iranian culture? how the linguistic links that exist between all languages of the indo-iranian group and in a larger frame the indo-european group?

...it is not explicable if not for the aryan invasion theory.

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...maybe they should be a little less tanned.... but pigmentation changes with exposure to sunlight... other than that all typical characteristics of iranians (aryans) are given.









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"That has to be the biggest BS I have ever heard in my life. Can you prove that Aryans were from Iran? Lol again coming back to Persian superiority. Atleast we have our culture intact you guys have been over runned by the Arabs lol."

I cant prove that Aryans are originally from Iran and most probably they entered Iran from somewhere else but it is obvious that the Aryans who invaded Iran and called the Highland "Land of Aryans" (Iran) are the same people who invaded India and established the caste system there.

And rest assured being a nation that hosts one of the most uniquely distinguished cultures of the world Iran has its own culture intact. The fact that the majority of Iranians has converted to Shia Islam is in this regards as significant as the notion that Greeks or Italians have converted to Christianity or that Chinese have converted to Buddhism.

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Are there no arabic blood in iranians ?

@magnus

about 2 percent.

france has more arabic blood than iran.

though there is a considerable turkish influence in iranian dna pool.

(up to 20 %)

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Soon Sweden to lol
anyway i see people as individuals.

@Vijak there is still no proof just because they settled in Iran does nt mean that they are Iranian, and this is what i ve noticed about Iranians if something is even 0.01% related to Iran they claim it to be theirs.

As far as culture goes ours is more than intact you guys have lost your old script and religion of the Zoroastrians. Where as our oldest religion Hinduism and language Sanskrit are both intact.




Albert Einstein:
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made."

Mark Twain:
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."

Hu Shih, former Ambassador of China to USA
"India conquered and dominated China culturally for 20 centuries without ever having to send a single soldier across her border."

I respect that you have kept your culture in INDIA but do you honestly beleive in the hinduistic religion?, I mean the religious part of it !


Your culture and food is great however!

Quote: if not for the aryan invasion theory how do you explain the over-obvious similarities between the aryan indian culture (note - not the tamil/dravidian culture) and iranian culture? how the linguistic links that exist between all languages of the indo-iranian group and in a larger frame the indo-european group?

Simple. Aryan culture originated from the area that is modern Punjab. The Saraswati river, the mightiest of all dried up and made people move both east and west (migrations of "Aryan" peoples outside India are recorded but invasions and/or migrations into India aren't). I dont think such a large population migration event will be missed from records, especially from a culture that sits down and records the fact that the heights of the Himalayas are increasing...

All this dried up about 4000 years ago:


And one more question for some people to ponder. If Aryans were barbaric nomads bent on destroying civilizations, how did they compose some of the most advanced scriptures and language in the world? You never generally hear of advances made by Mongolian or Hunnic hoardes, but the Aryans were a very intellectual race of barbarians?

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17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...

Oh sorry, I forgot to add one thing...

According to the Matsya Purana, Manu (Hindu equivalent to Noah - father of all "Arya" people) was himelsf a South Indian King.

How did the Dravidians make their sons white enough to be Aryans???

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17th century India, The Masters of the Oceans...