The year is 751. The armies of the Tang Emperor Xuanzong, led by Kao Hsien-chih, face off against the soldiers of Abu Muslim.

As we know, the Muslims were victorious, and their control over Central Asia was established. But what if they loose? The Chinese blame the Turks for switching sides to the Muslims, so suppose they didn't?

Reverse the outcome. Kao is victorious, and the Emperor sends An Lushan out to assist him (perhaps no revolt in 755 to devastate the heart of the Tang Empire?)

Thoughts on the effects?

Buddhism is going to stay in Central Asia at least for a while. The Tang are going to be stronger but thats more because they avoided the revolt of An Lushan.

the Muslims dont get paper makeing, at least for a while






Federal Commonwealth Society




That's Britain for you. Tea solves everything.
You're a bit cold? Tea.
Your girlfriend has just left you? Tea.
You've just been told you've got cancer? Tea.
Coordinated terrorist attack on the transport network bringing the city to a grinding halt? TEA DAMMIT!

Today central asia is going to be under communist of course

Well if Tang is victorious, there maybe two outcomes
Like any other Dynasties, Tang will eventually fall, and Central Asia will be lost, and will never be bothered again. However if Tang stayed for at least another 200 years, then that will be enough for the Chinese to assimilate the Central Asians, and they will be considered as Chinese "citizens" and their land will be considered as Chinese "territory", in the end Tang will fall, and break up into many factions, a new dynasty will consider central asia as part of the "Tian Xia" or part of the world that must be conquered in order to restore the "full" former Chinese empire, and claim the title of emperor of China. And Central Asians will think themselvs as part of the Chinese "Tian Xia" so whenever China is broken up, they as well will seek to unify China.

"Let them hate us, so long as they fear us" - Emperor Caligua
"The strong did what they could, the weak suffered what they must"
"German soldiers don't die, they go to hell and regroup"

You'll end up with Sinicized pagan/Taoist/Buddhist Turks from China to Eastern Europe instead of Muslim Turks we see today.

A longer lasting Tang Empire which could have emerged even more powerful than it was historically. This would change how the China we saw at the beginning of the colonial period. Possibly a China that would not be inward looking since the Tang, like the earlier Han, was imperialistic, expansionist and muliticultural. In fact, China itself would be fundamentally different culturally.

Chinese garrisons, allies and protectorates all along the Silk Road could actually reach the gates of Europe itself. Chinese troops approaching the border of the Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire might or might be overrun by Sinicized Turks.

Zorastrian Persia might have been restored by the Sassinid Princes residing in Tang China.

The biggest change in history might have been no Genghiz Khan or an Mongolian empire if the Tang Armies remained powerful and dominant in the northern borderlands.

Then again even after a win at Talas, the Tang could have fallen. The problem with the Tang was it was overstretched and too many of the Imperial Armies along the borders saw themselves as a separate kingdoms with claim to the Empire.

An Lushan was from an Persian protectorate of the Tang, Sogdia. His Imperial Tang Army that was supposed to protect the northeast turned on the capitol. The Uighur Turks, a Sinicized tribe allied to the Tang on Mongolian border fought An Lushan for the Tang royal house. Other Imperial armies and protectorates fought for and against the Empire.

Remember, it wasn't the Battle of Talas which brought down the Empire. It was the An Lushan Rebellion that destroyed central power. If the An Lushan rebellion didn't take place, the Tang would have attempted to retake Central Asia and it might been successful.

Actually, the large number of foreign troops in Kao's army (40,000 were allies with only 20,000 Han Chinese) already indicated that the Empire was overstretched.

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The dynasty's been around for more than 300 years at that time. It was corrupted to the core. The lose was inevitable.

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Before the battle of Talas Kao-Sien-Chih was involved in crushing the Dardic people of the Hindukush and making them except Chinese overlordship so that the Tibetans would loose their access to Central Asia.

Bolor(present day Chitral and Gilgit)and Wakhan were under Tibetan influence before Kao's expedition and and their was a large Tibetan garrison in the Wakhan, after he sacked Gilgit and placed a pro-Chinese ruler on the throne of Chitral the Tibetan hold upon the region was lost.

One question though, do any of you know whether their were any Dardic (Bolorese)troops fighting for the Tang at Talas?

"Who are the rulers of the lands beyond Guraiz and Burzil? The Darada Rajas."
The Rajatarangini

If the Turks hadn't switched sides and the Chinese had won Talas;

1)There would be no Turkey, Oghuz Turks would be a small Turkic tribe strolling through the steppes of Central Asia.

2)Central Asian Turkic Republics wouldn't have been Muslim today.

3)The Ottoman, Mughal, Seljuk and Saffavid empires would never have existed cause all these empires were ruled by Muslim Turkic dynasties.

4)Istanbul would never have been conquered therefore Latin and Greek scholars wouldn't have had to moved to Italy to start renaissance.

5)Turks wouldn't have took over the important trade routs of the world and Europeans wouldn't feel the need to discover new trade routs and America wouldn't have been discovered or discovered so early.

6)Istanbul would never have been conquered by Turks therefore Europeans wouldn't have had cannons and heavy artillery to end the feudal system in Europe.

7)Jerusalem and Anatolia would be Christian land cause the Crusaders were defeated by Muslim Turks.

8)Cause of 4, 5, 6 and 7 Europe would still be in the middle ages.

As we can see the battle of Talas was a very important event in history...

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oh for god's sake the legitimate spelling is Tang Gao Zhong, not kao tsang stuff like taht.

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interesting and informative thread. Gao was a ethnic korean and it shows how open and multicultural Tang was. In fact, many overseas chinese call themselves "Tang people" and all the China Towns are "Tang Ren Jie" or "Tang people street". It is the epitamy of chinese imperial and cultural, artistic power. Although, south Song had a muchm ore developed economy, on the cusp of becoming a capitalistic society if not for the Mongols. indeed, the battle of Talas is one of the most significant events in history.

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Well, who said Talas can't be reversed? Did the Spaniards give up when the Muslims blitzed through their country? After 800 freaking years, they came out on top. Did the Russians give up when the Muslims used to exact tribute from Moscow at one time? Did the Hindus give up when the Muslims hounded us out from our homes from Afghanistan down to Bangladesh? Did the JEWS give up after the Holocaust?

The tide of war is just beginning to turn today.

Talas might have been reversed if the An Lushan rebellion hadn't taken place. The Empire broke not because of Talas but because it had Tang Imperial armies fighting against other Tang Imperial armies with the allied tribes and protectorate states all taking one side or the other in a bloody civil war.

Talas weakened the center but it was not the death blow. If the Tang had remained whole and powerful, it might have sent army after army into Central Asia and Persia until the Arabs were broken or pushed back. That never happened because the Tang Empire destroyed itself from internal warfare. The worst consequence for China (and the rest of Eurasia) was the shattering of Chinese control over the border tribes like the Khitans, Turks (many nations) and especially the nations that became Genghiz Khan's Mongols.

Actually, Arab weakening of the Tang's power in Central Asia directly led to the Arabs' own defeat and conquest by the Mongols and Turks who poured from the border regions of the Chinese frontier. These were partially sinicized warrior nations of the steppes who combined the warfighting of whole tribes (nomads basically had the first conscripted service since a whole people were raised and trained in warfare) with the metalworking, siegecraft technology and administrative abilities of Chinese civilization.

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Well, who said Talas can't be reversed? Did the Spaniards give up when the Muslims blitzed through their country? After 800 freaking years, they came out on top.

Are you suggesting us to retake it? And gain the controll over central Asia?

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Sure!!